White-Luck Warrior IX

[Sci-2]

Two, Kellhus personally went to the outside and got a couple ciphrang. They are recognizable to everyone; even sorweel knows what they are. Now I guess it's possible that when they manifest they turned into what people thought they should look like, but remember - the inside is the most objective. Here, they would look the most like what they actually are, not the least.

Also good point.....

[Happy Ent]

I think the programming language analogy is quite cool.

When Kellhus uses a cant of calling and makes it a cant of transposition, he just uses a higher order function, or maybe type polymorphism.

We have

fun calling: String x location

with the semantics that calling(“What”, where) the information state at the given location is extended with the first argument:

where.String[ x <- “What”]

A sorcerer at where is able to read “What” in his dreams.

Kellhus uses his leet skills and makes it polymorphic

fun calling: [T] x where

which then extends state of thingies of the type T at where

Thus he just invokes

calling(me, where)

extending the state of people at the remote location. Nifty.

[Reek]

I thought the difference between Gnostic and Agnostic casting was that the Mandate knows the actual meanings of the utterals and inutterals they use to harness magic while the Agnostic schools only learn the phrases by rote.

That means the Gnostic school can make slight alterations in the meanings of the words used while casting while the Agnostic schools are locked into a very specific way of casting.

[Madness]

@ Spooky:

I don't accept your premise as valid but to offer some thoughts. I may or may not write a bigger post soon concerning reflection/summation/speculation of the TSA so far, depending on how haggard the start of my spring semester routine is.

Don't have the books handy so bear with me.

Basically, we've yet to see a major Gnosis on Gnosis blowout. Which I could almost argue for not even showing up until The Series That Shall Not Be Named. What seems to be the case, in my mind, is that we have no real comparison to imagine what a full fielding of Erratic Quya, Consult Mengaecca, and Tekne would be like. Surely, every Quya, Ishroi, or combination cannot be as powerful as Nil'giccas.

There remain too many questions. What innovations have the Consult made to sorcery or the Tekne, aside from the Skin-Spies? What is the full power of the Metagnosis, especially against the traditional Gnosis of the Ancient North?

Kellhus is probably asking himself these same questions. Remember, Kellhus is the only Gnostic Sorcerer of the Three-Seas who doesn't dream Seswatha's Dreams. Yet he surely has amassed all the knowledge of all the libraries of all the Schools.

I think it's far too big an assumption that Kellhus' goals are so straightforward and there are too many new factors in Earwa within the past twenty years to assume that the histories are a good comparison anymore.

Also, I'm surprised no one has yet pointed out that 200k on the way to Dagliash is eerily close to the 144k of Legend/Consult need, neh?

[Kynokephalos]

Actually the whole Meaning and Inutterals business seems to hinge on the ideas of de Saussure and Derrida in that meaning is expressed by difference to other things, not by inherent meaning. The inutterals seem like a second demarcation line, boxing in the meaning between the two utterances.

Edit: I do seem to remember the Kellhus using a second inutteral. That might point even more to that.

[Happy Ent]

I thought the difference between Gnostic and Agnostic casting was that the Mandate knows the actual meanings of the utterals and inutterals they use to harness magic while the Agnostic schools only learn the phrases by rote.

[…]

That is not correct. (And “agnostic” should be “anagogic”.)

Both Schools express meaning, and do so precisely.

The anagogic spell for “straight line” is “the thing that is like a ruler”. The Gnostic spell is “the shortest distance between two points.”

[Guest]

Wait - Do we know for certain that Kellhus has not touched Seswatha's heart? Wasn't it stated that he is somehow part of the Mandate even as Aspect-Emperor? Did not Serwa do the Seswatha thing?

I don't recall ever hearing the Kellhus touched Seswatha's heart. I just don't think it's ever made plain that he didn't either.

[Curethan]

if (!fire) {

[yourface addfeature]$("I really like fire it's so hot and bright and all consuming" + "remember that time I burnt myself" + "dragon's are awesome, everyone know's what a dragon is and how that relates to fire");

}

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I agree with Kal et al that the difference in power is a difference in specificity. Like HE says, Gnostic sorcerers can describe exactly what they want, while Anagogic must arrive to that point.

However, HE I don't think your example is a good one. The Anagogics seem to deal extensively in physical metaphors, so for example a spell of light for the Spires or whoever might be "Torch burning in the sky" which would produce exactly that. Whereas we see the Bar of Heaven and other spells, which in plain language would be more like "light" or "big light." In your example, Anagogic spell would be "thing like a ruler" and Gnostic spell would be "straight line."

[Kalbear]

Actually the whole Meaning and Inutterals business seems to hinge on the ideas of de Saussure and Derrida in that meaning is expressed by difference to other things, not by inherent meaning. The inutterals seem like a second demarcation line, boxing in the meaning between the two utterances.

Edit: I do seem to remember the Kellhus using a second inutteral. That might point even more to that.

Yes to all of this. It's clearly the philosopher magic, which should shock no one. Some folks don't know those concepts though.

At one point akka describes the inutteral as a type of anchor to the utteral for depiction of meaning, which again falls well with this.

[Sci-2]

I thought the difference between Gnostic and Agnostic casting was that the Mandate knows the actual meanings of the utterals and inutterals they use to harness magic while the Agnostic schools only learn the phrases by rote.

That means the Gnostic school can make slight alterations in the meanings of the words used while casting while the Agnostic schools are locked into a very specific way of casting.

Can't be, given the visual differences between the Gnostic and Anagogic spells which in turn speak to the techniques used. See HE's post about getting a line.

I still think the programming language comparisons break down, because Gnosis encompasses all programming languages + mathematics. It's a language that relies on sloughing off ambiguity.

What seems strange to me then is that in the subjectivity of the Outside such precision could still retain its crown among the grammars. I just don't see how you guys are reconciling this.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

I'm not sure what you mean by that last bit, sciborg. Are you saying that the Gnosis should be just as powerful in the Outside as it is in Earwa? If so, then I guess I'd say that it seems as though the magic is of Earwa specifically, as it is the God's creation; in places where his voice did not make creation, I don't know if it would hold any power.

The caveat to that is of course that it obviously does have power in the Outside, otherwise the Daimos wouldn't function, and I doubt even Kellhus could defeat two Ciphrang in the Outside without the Gnosis.

If that's not what you meant then I'm sorry (I haven't followed the programming language stuff, as I'm not even up to a layman's grasp of the concepts).

[Sci-2]

No worries, I think the programming language comparison breaks down when you look at the Daimos anyway.

What I mean is the Gnosis shouldn't work very well if everything we've been told about the Outside is true. If the Outside is a subjective place [like a lucid dream] that bends to desires of the gods, I can see a grammar that allows for poetry to work in pulling Ciphrang from the outside whereas one that makes better computer programs should fail.

If you had to write a novel, you wouldn't use a programming language, you'd use English or French or whatever. Anagogic sorcery is why the Daimos works, or at least why it should work. It's never perfect but you can at least partially grasp the numinous - Dante writes about this at the end of the Divine Comedy, that to grasp even a sliver of the Divine you have to use language to reach as far as you can even though it can never be enough.

[Curethan]

The programming language comparison breaks down because the results of sorcery break the rules. It's like actually getting shot by an FPS.

One can't use sorcery merely by understanding the language, you have to be born one of the few (probably),

The term sorcery implies that the actual power is manifested from some 'outside' source. Accessing it hinges on being able to grasp the principles of that realm, which in this case is meaning and its abstract expressions. The sorcerer can then channel the power to alter/overwrite Earwa's standard causal objective reality.

In light of the apparent fact that sorcerers do not exercise their abilities as an extension of free will (i.e. assuming they are equally enslaved by tDtcB) and they are unlikely to be the source of their innate powers, its possible that sorcery is actually the tool of some outside agency.

[sologdin]

hinge on the ideas of de Saussure and Derrida in that meaning is expressed

i've been saying this kinda stuff for years, but no one cares, apparently because the important issue is whether heaven exists in the setting.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

No worries, I think the programming language comparison breaks down when you look at the Daimos anyway.

What I mean is the Gnosis shouldn't work very well if everything we've been told about the Outside is true. If the Outside is a subjective place [like a lucid dream] that bends to desires of the gods, I can see a grammar that allows for poetry to work in pulling Ciphrang from the outside whereas one that makes better computer programs should fail.

If you had to write a novel, you wouldn't use a programming language, you'd use English or French or whatever. Anagogic sorcery is why the Daimos works, or at least why it should work. It's never perfect but you can at least partially grasp the numinous - Dante writes about this at the end of the Divine Comedy, that to grasp even a sliver of the Divine you have to use language to reach as far as you can even though it can never be enough.

I'm not sure I agree with you regarding the Daimos. We simply don't know enough about how it works. Our few glimpses of show enslavement of forces in the Outside, but how could a sorcerer control anything in the Outside while being in Earwa? Perhaps the Daimos works by creating a partition of the Outside that is under the control of the Daimotic sorcerer, who can then populate it with various Ciphrang to be released into Earwa at the controller's whim.

Of course, this still leaves the issue of how exactly the Daimotic sorcerer enslaved these Ciphrang in the first place, but remember that there is an element of bargaining in the sorcery. Iyokus controls them now, but they get his soul when he dies. If this is how it works, a simple bargain, then I don't see why sorcery is necessary at all beyond the ability to commune with the Outside. Perhaps it isn't. Being one of the Few is enough.

Regarding sorcery in the Outside in general, if we can accept that it works there at all (which seems strange to me, since it seems unclear whether or not the Outside was created by the God's voice), then it follows that it would be more powerful there, not less, because the reality is much more malleable.

Random thought: if a sorcerer practiced exclusively in the Outside, would they still be Marked?

[Sci-2]

Perhaps the Daimos works by creating a partition of the Outside that is under the control of the Daimotic sorcerer, who can then populate it with various Ciphrang to be released into Earwa at the controller's whim.

Hmm, so the Daimotic sorcerer extends the frame of the world into the Outside, and the frame itself is the lasso. This would resolve the issue I have with the Gnostic grammar being as powerful Outside as it is Inside.

I still think the Anagogic sorcery always being weaker is problematic though the Daimos was admittedly my trump card.

[Kynokephalos]

Hmm, what separates Ciphrang from the Gods?

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

Hmm, what separates Ciphrang from the Gods?

PR?

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Hmm, what separates Ciphrang from the Gods?

Gods are bigger, most likely.