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White-Luck Warrior IX


jurble

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I wonder if there is something about blog culture, this shouting to the wind aspect, that people decide to engage in such endless intellectual masturbration. It's really hard for me to see anything Bakker's written since January that has varied greatly - each post is nearly the same for all intents and purposes.

And it seems so self-defeating, worrying about lost sales and then refusing to engage what may be a small but is clearly an interested fan base. Hell, I'd take some Nansur-Zeum interracial porn stories at this point, if there are some cursory details about the world mixed in.

I fail to see how he has refused to engage his fan base. I will admit, i've only been idly following this since it exploded, but he seems intent on talking with people. People might not agree with what he has to say, but he's kept to a general theme. As for endless intellectual masturbation, would you feeding both sides fit into that definition?

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Because inri wasn't saying that the gods don't exist. And he didn't stop the cultists, nor did he appreciably Change the role of women or the castes.

Even fane didn't state the other gods didn't exist.

Though I'd also point out we have no idea how inri died. Or fane.

Kel is saying the hundred don't exist?
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What seems strange to me then is that in the subjectivity of the Outside such precision could still retain its crown among the grammars. I just don't see how you guys are reconciling this.

Sorry to weigh in late, but I'm guessing it ties into the blind brain hypothesis. The outside isn't subjective really, it's merely the utter output of god programs without resource restraint. Without anything to say no. That doesn't mean they've escaped some sort of precision structure, rather they are the execution of such.

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I fail to see how he has refused to engage his fan base. I will admit, i've only been idly following this since it exploded, but he seems intent on talking with people. People might not agree with what he has to say, but he's kept to a general theme. As for endless intellectual masturbation, would you feeding both sides fit into that definition?

ETA: All blogs are intellectual masturbation, but authors should be pushing their series.

Sorry, I should say failed to fully engage his fans. Do you think the series has reached its carrying capacity in terms of fans?

Think of books that can be described as "Black Metal Tolkien", and imagine how well they'd sell to fans of the music.

Think of the inner folds of the magic system, and the mechanics of it, and how it could convince at least a few Sanderson fans looking for some darker stuff.

What were his writing influences beyond the brain stuff and Tolkien? I know from way back Cormac McCarthy was a big influence, would be interesting to Scott's review of Blood Meridian.

He said he has an appendix in the works, larger than the previous one. Throw out some snippets. What's up with the Well of the Aborted? What other grafting experiments did the Ichies try on themselves? How did the Nonmen figure out how sorcery intertwined with language?

What's really needed is an Earwa dedicated section of the blog, with uploaded maps and such. Also, some way to promote fan art or even comission a few pieces through his agent.

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Sorry to weigh in late, but I'm guessing it ties into the blind brain hypothesis. The outside isn't subjective really, it's merely the utter output of god programs without resource restraint. Without anything to say no. That doesn't mean they've escaped some sort of precision structure, rather they are the execution of such.

Not sure about this. It sort of breaks down the very idea of the Outside, making it little more than a complex Inside. Which may be the point, but I think the Outside was conjured up from Scott's D&D days which was long before the Bling Blind Brain Hype.

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Sci, he did write two Atrocity Tales. The second wasn't that long ago. The second also had numerous bones to chew on. Yes, he's a self-confessed terrible self-promoter. But he's also not going to change (it would hit to close to home against his brain theory if he could *gasp* change his behavior). :P I think you're tilting at windmills.

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Sci, he did write two Atrocity Tales. The second wasn't that long ago. The second also had numerous bones to chew on. Yes, he's a self-confessed terrible self-promoter. But he's also not going to change (it would hit to close to home against his brain theory if he could *gasp* change his behavior). :P I think you're tilting at windmills.

Fair enough. I just think it is weird that Scott obviously wants higher sales and some copy-pasta of the apparently already vast appendix would be easy promotion. Note there was a time where we had four Bakker threads going on here.

I do think this series could easily sell much better than it has with a little oomph. Maybe I'll whip up some stats for some Earwa characters one day.

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ETA: All blogs are intellectual masturbation, but authors should be pushing their series.

Sorry, I should say failed to fully engage his fans. Do you think the series has reached its carrying capacity in terms of fans?

Think of books that can be described as "Black Metal Tolkien", and imagine how well they'd sell to fans of the music.

Think of the inner folds of the magic system, and the mechanics of it, and how it could convince at least a few Sanderson fans looking for some darker stuff.

What were his writing influences beyond the brain stuff and Tolkien? I know from way back Cormac McCarthy was a big influence, would be interesting to Scott's review of Blood Meridian.

He said he has an appendix in the works, larger than the previous one. Throw out some snippets. What's up with the Well of the Aborted? What other grafting experiments did the Ichies try on themselves? How did the Nonmen figure out how sorcery intertwined with language?

What's really needed is an Earwa dedicated section of the blog, with uploaded maps and such. Also, some way to promote fan art or even comission a few pieces through his agent.

I do think his series has reached, or is within spitting distance of, its peak capacity in terms of fans. There are a couple of things that work against him, at least in my opinion.

1) He's opened his mouth in real life and most people cringe when he does so. He's not OSC, but...

2) If we assume that roughly half of the fantasy readership is comprised of women (i have no hard data for that), then of those he's probably only going to keep 10% reading, if that. I think there are a few ladies on the board here that don't mind him, but overall, i think women are simply turned off by the Rapey McRaperson that spills out of the pages.

3) Philosophical masturbation. It is endless, and repetitive.

4) Endless negativity - No one is happy in the books. Sure, there are a few chuckles shared around a camp fire now and then, but everyone is consumed by the unhappiness that comes before. And it's hard to follow a group of people trudging towards certain doom and damnation without at least someone to act realistically and look for some joy on their way to Rapetown.

Don't get me wrong, i don't mind the books. And there are some things that i certainly enjoy. But there are many things i don't.

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@ unJon: The BBH and consciously changing behavior are perfectly compatible in most current theories of brain function.

Aside, I figure most of the forumers are fan of TSA. However, I think Bakker's current position is locked in. Likely, the highest percentage of his readership have been with him since TDTCB, or at the very least, PON. Many individuals of that percentage are also probably the highest percentage of current purchasers, or responsible for current purchases, by word of mouth.

If Bakker's to find new fans, new money, I think he has got to garner interest from outside the SFF spectrum. And this means those reading his blog strictly for fantasy updates are probably going to be the most disappointed. Even moreso because satisfying our WLW-level perspective with new information is just as likely to alienate new readers as much as it entices others.

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Here's a question on the sales front:

Does the TV show Game of Thrones have any chance of helping the fantasy genre?

I don't know what the data says, but here's where the question comes from.

HBO is getting good ratings. A lot is from the readership of ASOIAF, but a lot is not. I suspect that many of those new viewers will give the books a shot, love them, and then do the "what next" reaction, as I did. Bakker gets ripped on a lot but also gets thrown out a lot as a "what next" option.

This might take some time as the show fans are probably just getting to those books in the last year (and they're kinda long).

What do y'all think?

Obviously if this could help Bakker (and I don't know if it will; just asking), it could help a number of other authors as well.

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If Bakker's to find new fans, new money, I think he has got to garner interest from outside the SFF spectrum. And this means those reading his blog strictly for fantasy updates are probably going to be the most disappointed. Even moreso because satisfying our WLW-level perspective with new information is just as likely to alienate new readers as much as it entices others.

This is sort of a good point, but I don't think ongoing battles against other bloggers are going to help. Maybe the battle between genre and literature, but I find it doubtful.

Though he could garner more hits by talking more about the themes in the books and where he was coming from, how it relates to other works, etc. Bakker's War on Women certainly didn't help. ;-)

Most of the stuff I was thinking would be useful has little to do with WLW. Info on Zeum and other nations. The rise of Fane. Past heroes and villains among the Nonmen and Inchies. More info on religious practices.

Having a plugged-in fanbase, especially for such a dark work, helps spread the word.

ETA: If Bakker's writing shorts, he should look into tapping the horror fans. I can see him as a very successful horror writer actually.

Maybe reviews, like the one he did for Infinite Jest, will help a little. He said he was reading Valente's stuff, be interesting to see his take on whatever he's looking at.

But I still think there's a lot of SFF fans to target. I only bought the books because someone mentioned Darkness as one of the strongest debuts when it came out. I've tried to push others into reading the series, with varying degrees of success.

Another interview with Pat would likely help.

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While we're on that particular topic, what I just don't get is why Bakker keeps on responding to these worms. Again and again.

I mean, it's already a big no-no for authors to respond to criticism of their work, that is known to have no end of pitfalls, so many abstain from it, and wisely so. But Bakker, he chooses to respond not once, but dozens of times, to people who clearly have absolutely no respect for him, and will never change their point of view on him because:

A) They don't really care about him.

B ) By doing so they would lose face in the blogosphere and face humiliation in front of their own readers ( Vox, acrackedmoon etc).

C) See that he is an easy target because he just keeps on responding even though he is somebody in the SFF genre, and they're pretty much unknown bloggers who we'd otherwise never have heard about, with extremely silly ideas.

But Bakker is making them bigger, and himself smaller. And really, for all his intelligence, if I can see that, why can't he?

In general the Bakker blog is a big turn-off for me with all these endless philosophical queries as well. But there at least I can say, that's his pet topic and it's his blog, so go ahead. But unless it's Earwa related, his blog posts make me frown and turn away.

And then of course there is the disappointing lack of progress on Unholy Consult. It's been pretty gloomy the last 6 months as far as all things Bakker are concerned.

With regards to winning new sales, I have no idea if the blog contributes to that or not. On the one hand I imagine that most newcomers would shy away from the lengthy philosophical debates and quarrels with bloggers, and that it would work averse. On the other hand he does get 400 comments whenever he goes on about such things, and surely some of those people commenting will be interested enough to pick up his books.

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Though he could garner more hits by talking more about the themes in the books and where he was coming from, how it relates to other works, etc. Bakker's War on Women certainly didn't help. ;-)

I have this vague memory that the quadrillion Bakker and Women threads were what first caught my attention. So maybe it did.

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It's the same 20 or so people commenting 20 or so times. It can be fun, to an extent, but I don't see it helping to sell the books. I think anyone commenting on TPB at present read the books already. I do recall him saying his review of Infinite Jest drew in a lot of traffic. I'm kind of surprised he didn't follow up with a review of the Goon Squad which he mentioned finishing at some point.

I realize a lot of people don't like PoN, but back it the day TDTCB was thought to be an incredibly strong debut. This was something echoed by authors who frequented Dead Cities.

I think once or twice a month throwing a little Earwa info out there wouldn't be a bad thing, and would keep people talking. Most people in the SFF online community, I'm going to guess, don't give a fuck about Vox or any of Bakker's internet kerfuffles. Heck, a few posts about Zeum, a massive PoC empire? That would draw in fans IMO.

Anyway, I threw a new question at Bakker, not grand just a factual question:

A sorcerer is given the title “Necromancer” in one book, yet we’ve yet to see magic related to the dead beyond a witches Wathi doll and rumors of arcana designed to prevent a soul from experiencing its damnation.

So what exactly does being a “Necromancer” entail?

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I wanted to re-post the question:

Did we ever get an explanation on how Fane died?

Does anyone have the TTT appendix handy? Does it give a year least?

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My impression on why there is a limit to the success of this particular series starts and ends with the distinct lack of characters to root for and how truly off-putting Kellhus is as the central figure in the story. Add that with the downward spiral Esmenet has undergone as a character and the heavy philosophizing and you've severely limited your potential audience.

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