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White-Luck Warrior IX


jurble

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I didn't either. I always thought that it was just circumstance that Nayu found the mound of Kellhus and his Atrithau people's last stand.

yeah, that does make sense. Moenghus conditioned the entire world/three seas to create a holy war for Kellhus to ascend but he didn't condition Kellhus' path to the holy war whatsoever. In a sense, Moe prevented the world from conspiring at the world events level but allowed the world to conspire in the events surrounding the individual most important part of his plan, Kellhus.
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a teensy bit sarcastic, but not in a mean way: I meant to say, well if Moenghus went to all this effort as a guarantee that Kellhus would walk conditioned ground, wouldn't Moenghus have gone to a similar effort to make sure that all of Kellhus' walk was conditioned ground? Why does the conditioned ground start when they reach the Empire? It seems to me the Conditioned Ground should start before that.

It would make sense that the Conditioned Ground Kellhus walks includes the path from the Utemot to the Empire because Moenghus began his journey in the world of men (presumably) at the Utemot.

So if the Conditioned Ground doesn't start at the borders of the Empire, and instead extends to the Utemot, why does it start at the Utemot?

Arguably, the most dangerous part of Kellhus' journey is from Ishual to Leweth, yet many presume this journey to be more or less Unconditioned Ground. Isn't it Conditioned Ground? Kellhus encounters NO SRANC throughout this journey--hundreds of miles long--from Ishual to Leweth, is that not bizarre? Kellhus doesn't even know what Sranc are until Leweth's terror makes their danger apparent. And remember, Moenghus lived with the Sranc before he lived with the Scylvendie at the Utemot, so this suggests there is a mechanism by which Moenghus could have conditioned Kellhus' path.

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I wonder if there's Conditions that Kellhus never activated. Like, maybe Meppa was programmed to attach himself to a charismatic young Prince by Moe, but somewhere along the way he got lost and his Conditioning stuck him to Fanayal.

Though, at the same time the fact that Fanayal survived all these years implies to me that he's part of the Thousandfold Thought in some fashion. Maybe he has a purpose that both Moe and Kellhus envisioned.

Kellhus is meant to represent our modernity and its attendant nihilism. How do the other major players fit into that allegory?

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I just finished the White-Luck Warrior and thought it was fantastic, possibly the best book of the series so far. Been reading the earlier WLW threads, there's lots of interesting speculation in there.

Something I've been wondering about though:

We know that the Unholy Consult will be the last book in this trilogy of books. and afterwards we'll have another story arc with 2/3 books coming. However, it does mean that tUC will need to have some kind of closure, the same way that TTT had: TTT saw the Holy War finished, Kellhus finally in complete control and ascended as AE, Achamian rejecting Kellhus, etc. Of course some stuff about the bigger picture was revealed, but mostly in a non-cliffhangery way that didn't require immediate resolution. That's what allowed Bakker to start 20 years later with the AE series and call it a new trilogy of books.

In the same way, there has to be a natural break-point at the end of tUC that Bakker has had in mind since the conception of the series, and I'm wondering what that is. Not that there has to be another 20-year jump per se, but to me it seems a bit weird if tUC ended with this huge cliffhanger (resurrection of the No-God for example). If that is true why start a new story arc and not just call it 'book 4'?

One thing is Kellhus' ascension to godhood. It would certainly parallel the end of TTT where he becomes Aspect-Emperor. It might also explain why the title of the third book-series is so spoilerish, because it refers to Kellhus' godhood in some way. (Again, a nice parallel: Prince of nothing, aspect-emperor, god-something).

The whole Great Ordeal storyline should however also come to an end. Given a quote I remember from Bakker (paraphrasing here): 'The war-stories I want to tell seem tailor-made for trilogies: Assembly, transport, conflagration" suggest that a decisive/final battle against the Consult will definitely take place in tUC. But will that battle be the destruction of Golgotterath? Will it involve the resurrection of the No-God? It seems a bit anti-climactic to have the No-God resurrect near the climax of tUC and then have him destroyed a few chapters later.

So I'm wondering which of the 'big events' will actually take place in tUC and which will be saved for the next series of books. If the destruction of the Consult/No-God is the big finale of the Aspect-Emperor series, then what is going to happen in the next book-series after it?

And the other way round, if the destruction of the consult/No-God is the big climax of the entire SA series, then how can tUC end in a satisfactory way, that provides closure for this part of the series?

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We know that the Unholy Consult will be the last book in this trilogy of books. and afterwards we'll have another story arc with 2/3 books coming. However, it does mean that tUC will need to have some kind of closure, the same way that TTT had: TTT saw the Holy War finished, Kellhus finally in complete control and ascended as AE, Achamian rejecting Kellhus, etc. Of course some stuff about the bigger picture was revealed, but mostly in a non-cliffhangery way that didn't require immediate resolution. That's what allowed Bakker to start 20 years later with the AE series and call it a new trilogy of books.

Kelmomas' Ordeal's Great Investiture lasted 18 years. Unless Kellhus has some means of breaking Golgotterath, the Ordeal is going to spend a lot of time camped on Agongorea, before presumably the No-God is summoned and the Consult takes the field.

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So I'm wondering which of the 'big events' will actually take place in tUC and which will be saved for the next series of books. If the destruction of the Consult/No-God is the big finale of the Aspect-Emperor series, then what is going to happen in the next book-series after it?

I expect that TUC will end with a cliffhanger of sorts, because the Consult/ Mog Pharau story will not be resolved by the end. I think much will be explained, there will be big setpieces and revelations, but that overaraching storyline will carry over into the next series. This does not need to be unsatisfying by the way.

The Great Ordeal storyline will come to an end. We will see Nonmen and Consult revealed, as the title implies. We may see them reach Golgotterath and fight a war there. We may even see the No God resurrected by the end of the book, and that may be the cliffhanger. Kellhus ( or someone else prominent) might have changed in nature ( say godhood). The Outside might interfere more heavily with Earwa in the next book as well. We will see more of what is going on with the Dunyain, if there is indeed more to be told there.

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Mostly because of Dune parallels.

right. the kwisatz haderach is the shortening of the way and seeks the golden path. in RSB, the ubergreaser already seeks the shortest path and should be revealed as the goldening of the way.

but the adams influences are more important. the clueless whale will crash on the ground and the world will go on, until it ends as a matter of callous bureaucratic fiat.

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One of my big fears is that Kellhus becomes a god. We have so little information on the nature of divinity this would be asinine.

I think Kellhus dies and is damned (or escapes in between), I don't think he becomes a god.

But I do think that the rest of the world will think he ascended to the Nail of Heaven like Ajencis, and I expect the Empire to worship him as a God.

So he becomes a god according to the beliefs of the world, but he doesn't become a god.

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Gods are as limited as humans. Only Ajokli, though, seems to recognize his limitations. The others are blind as worldborn men. I don't see why Kellhus would to be a god. Becoming God, of course, would be nice, because that's the only possibility of becoming a self-moving soul. Not even the Inrithi God of Gods, composed of god-pieces, but the Fanim God which is more in line with Jewish/Islamic/Neoplatonic/Deist ideas of a supreme being.

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I think Kellhus dies and is damned (or escapes in between), I don't think he becomes a god.

But I do think that the rest of the world will think he ascended to the Nail of Heaven like Ajencis, and I expect the Empire to worship him as a God.

So he becomes a god according to the beliefs of the world, but he doesn't become a god.

Hmmm, you know for some reason I didn't [think] of him walking into Oblivion. But why not? He's already tread through the Outside. Why wouldn't he be seeking a way to avoid damnation?

But I can't help but feel that he has some goal in mind that allows someone, somewhere, sometime to achieve the Dunyain mission.

I sort of wish there wasn't 2-3 books left, because I feel like the story should end with TUC.

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Do not seek too deeply Sci, in the affairs of Callan, my good and faithful servant. Your skin would salt to see such loyalty.

It's funny how truth or fact (or even right down to raw data) still gets a humanocentric tag to it. Ignore the what, it's the whom. You speak words invented by men (and women) long dead - yet because we cannot remember names, there is no attribute of loyalty. But what greater mark of loyalty and fidelity is there, I wonder, than to not see it as loyalty at all? Prints of nothing?

[All caps whirlwind] Tell me, what do you troll? [/all caps whirlwind]

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This being an "anti-series", I expect that it will end with Consult / Inchies being shown to be justified in their actions. If damnation is to greatest physical torture, as the latter is to a hangnail, then womb plague or rapes or whatever are really of no consequence. They are hang fingernails comparing to what expects most people if the world is not closed.

Only thing that can invalidate above, is inverse fire being a lie, ie the whole damnation thing is made up and is simply a glamour by Inchies to make perverted sex slaves, and I don't think Bakker will go there, as its less philosophically interesting then Inchies being justified.

Above is my belief as to ultimate resolution of the series. As to how it will be shown, speculation below:

Achemian will join the Consult after looking into the inverse fire.

Kelsus can't join the Consult, if we are to believe his conversation with his father. Because he sees the logical inevitability that Consult is the way to go yet he can not accept it; he broke down and went crazy (the taking out his own heart thing etc is him having schizophrenia), Except he went crazy in a high functioning, serial killer type way (think Joker), without losing any of his manipulation or logical skills.. Being crazy allows him to have strong emotions, one thing that his father lacked from being the best waterbearer sorceror. Kelthus will eventually learn how to do it, and become the only sorceror to be able to sing both the perfect pitch/timbre/passion as well as language of creation.

Maybe he will have a power of god, but on a small local scale, it would be boring to have Kelthus just chant and create a new universe with everything fixed. Perhaps Bakker will make some kind of "have to pay for it" penalty, where the more he does "god-magic", the madder he becomes, eventually losing any language ability, and imploding into a fireball of blue light.

P.S. Oh and in the end everyone dies, but the planet is populated by bunch of skin-spies, who don't know who they are, and run around thinking they are humans.

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I'm waiting for the revelation that Seswatha stole the inverse fire and the inchies haven't had it for millenia. And Akka is, in a sense, a product of the inverse fire, since Ses hid it in his heart. :D

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Quote I my friend, to whom I suggested that he read Prince of Nothing

Prince of nothing is hard to read

Now I see what sort of people like the Kvothe books (he thinks they're amazing), always wondered.

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