In Defense of Rhaegar.

[Melifeather]

This was my assessment also. My interpretation was that a romance bloomed at the Tourney of Harrenhal between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Somehow Lyanna slips away with Rhaegar, and I think a secret marriage ensued. I believe Jon Snow was their child at the Tower of Joy and that Ned knows all of this, and probably Howland Reed as well.

[GreyDeLeon]

Aerys probably wouldn't have been in any physical danger if Rhaegar had carried out his coup. He would have been declared unfit to rule and allowed to live a carefully supervised but comfortable life, remaining the King in name but with his son actually ruling as Prince Regent. Ideally, this would have been sanctioned by a Great Council that included all the Lords Paramount. I'm pretty sure most of the Kingsguard would have seen the sense in that and stepped aside.

The problem was that Rhaegar left it too late, as he himself acknowledged, and ended up fighting and dying in defence of Aerys' regime against a justified rebellion. He was too concerned with prophecies (or love, or maybe both) and not enough with the here-and-now. This resulted in him provoking a political crisis and alienating several of the great lords whose support he would need for his coup. He then disappeared for a while, leaving his crazy father to deal with the mess he'd made, and then ended up having to fight on the wrong side (he should have been the leader of the anti-Aerys movement and it shouldn't have required a full-blown war).

That is also the thought process I was going through. Why would he leave? The Kingdom was at a breaking point and if Aerys could since it I'm sure Rhaegar knew. Something greater than the Rebellion had his attention. And I can't believe that Lust was one emotions Rhaegar let rule his actions.

[Melpomene]

I actually find it hard to believe that Lyanna would actually marry Rhaegar. I mean, she wasn't fond of Robert being a womanizer, and a likely future serial cheater in marriage....why would Lyanna agree to a polygamous marriage? Especially since Elia wouldn't have known/had a choice in the matter, and other children being involved. It seems sketchy that she would willingly be the "other woman" in an already existing marriage. Even if Rhae/Lyanna's marriage would be supposedly legal and moral, and even if the Rhae/Elia's marriage would be arranged, I just can't see her be all that willing. Something seems off to me.

Anyhow, I don't exactly feel like he was a rapist. Dutiful towards his personal goals, and borderline obsessive, but not rapey. He was likely aware of his father regularly raping his mother, so that sort or behaviour would be the last thing on his mind (Unless it will be later revealled that Rhaegar was developing mental problems afterall)

I'm not crazy about the guy either way. Sure, he was intelligent, strong and pretty looking, but I felt he was too selfish in his goals. He could say he was doing everything on behalf of the realm, but the way he did it was just awful, causing the demise overall of his family. He put his mother at risk, his siblings, and his children and wife were killed, all for some prophecy and his ambitions. Like "taking" a noblelady who was someone elses' betrothed would be considered smart. I'm not sure if he suddenly felt that being a royal member was going to let him have a free pass, but come on, he was the Crown Prince, he was going to become king anyhow if he had plans to change some things. Take care of your responsibilities buddy.

[WolveseatDragons]

I don't think he raped Lyanna but that still doesn't justify running off with her. One reason I don't think he raped her is I think she was simply too strong and knew how to defend herself too well to allow that to happen, besides all of the other evidence. I do find it odd though that Lyanna makes the statement about not liking how Robert had a bastard child in the Vale (Mya Stone) but then ran off to be the "other woman".

More than that though, Rhaegar was the prince and much older and wiser than Lyanna and should have had the self control not to run off with her no matter how he felt. If he was going to have her he also should have come clean with it to her family and to Robert, that would have been far more honorable than what he did. He still was married as well.

In the end I don't see Rhaegar as being nearly as evil as Robert portrays him but he also wasn't innocent. In the end his actions brought down his House and cost thousands of lives in a war (including his actual wife and children), all for a prophecy and his other desires. You can argue the ends justifies the means I suppose if the PtwP saves Westeros from The Others but still that doesn't make his actions honorable.

[Summerqueen]

What if the fate of the world hangs in the balance?

He was a hot guy with a great mind, musical talent, and style. So, she chicked out, drank his Kool Aid (I'm aiming for JJ, not vulgarity here), and embraced irony. I firmly believe that Lyanna ate her words and bought in to his prophecy BS. I think the most convincing POV on the subject is Selmy's. Rhaegar loved Lyanna according to him. Hard to think he'd be a cruel rapist in those circumstances.

In any event, they are very human, and their story is meant to be a tragedy. I really don't think there's any reason to blame Rhaegar for things he didn't do. He ran away with a girl. He left his wife for a few months. Other people made some other rash decisions in reaction, for which they are responsible.

[rmanoj]

What if the fate of the world hangs in the balance?

He was a hot guy with a great mind, musical talent, and style. So, she chicked out, drank his Kool Aid (I'm aiming for JJ, not vulgarity here), and embraced irony. I firmly believe that Lyanna ate her words and bought in to his prophecy BS. I think the most convincing POV on the subject is Selmy's. Rhaegar loved Lyanna according to him. Hard to think he'd be a cruel rapist in those circumstances.

In any event, they are very human, and their story is meant to be a tragedy. I really don't think there's any reason to blame Rhaegar for things he didn't do. He ran away with a girl. He left his wife for a few months. Other people made some other rash decisions in reaction, for which they are responsible.

A Crown prince has to be responsible for other people and should always take into account the probable political fallout of his actions. Otherwise he should just abandon his claim to the throne, as Prince Duncan the Small did in favour of Jaehaerys II. Now, we can pontificate with our modern mindsets on Rhaegar and Lyanna having the right to do what they want, Brandon having no right to interfere etc, but a man in Rhaegar's position should have been considering the facts and the realistic outcomes, if he wanted to avoid a lot of ugliness and death.

[Summerqueen]

A Crown prince has to be responsible for other people and should always take into account the probable political fallout of his actions. Otherwise he should just abandon his claim to the throne, as Prince Duncan the Small did in favour of Jaehaerys II. Now, we can pontificate with our modern mindsets on Rhaegar and Lyanna having the right to do what they want, Brandon having no right to interfere etc, but a man in Rhaegar's position should have been considering the facts and the realistic outcomes, if he wanted to avoid a lot of ugliness and death.

To him, though, the fallout may be the wholesale slaughter of the human race. He might risk pissing off Lord Stark for that. He may or may not have known how rash Brandon was. The point is that we do not know his reasons, and normally, his actions would not have ended in war. War was contingent on his father's unreasonable action, which he could not predict. You can't predict when a crazy person is going to unhinge and in what way.

[Ser Adam Dayne]

I don't think Rhaegar was gay, for what it's worth. I also think that Rhaegar was the type of guy who would have been really good at whatever he did. Sadly, for him, he decided to become a "better" warrior later in life.

As far as the Kingsguard backing his play at removing his father for the good of the realm, I do have a slight problem with that. The Lord Commander himself told Jaime while Aerys was roasting Ned's father alive that their loyalty was to the King and the king only. Surely they knew Aerys was off his rocker, and that he was going to plunge the realm into war. Aerys does not strike me as the type of guy that would quietly go into the night. However, I do envision the lords of the realm (pre-rebellion) backing Rhaegar. Oh well, we'll never know, unless Ser Arthur is magically alive somewhere. ( I had to throw that out there)

[craig_o]

There's clearly serious doubts a to how willing Lyanna was (I fall in the willing camp) so why can't we further question the alleged abduction? Could Rhaegar have been keeping her safe from Areys? Remember, this is the guy who murdered Rickard and Brandon. Why would he stop there?

[Mr Stereo1]

I don't think he raped Lyanna but that still doesn't justify running off with her. One reason I don't think he raped her is I think she was simply too strong and knew how to defend herself too well to allow that to happen, besides all of the other evidence.

I'm not sure if that's a fair argument to make, to be frank. While it's suggested she shared some traits with Arya that might mean she had some hidden talents, the fact remains that we've seen well equipped and trained grown men with fair warning of their opponents arms, armour, training and intent drop like flies over the course of the series. At best Lyanna might have a good horse, a hidden dagger, and leather clothing. Given she didn't inform her family, it's unlikely she knew Rhaegar's intentions, so the armed, armoured, professionally trained and fully grown soldier with his elite loyal bodyguard get the drop on a fourteen year old girl....

The only decent defence she could have would be witnesses to dissuade an abduction, or her family's guardsmen or servants, who could well have been used as leverage. Since there's no mention of massacred stark folk in the series, I assume she was either taken while absconded from her guards or Rhaeger threatened to harm them if she called for help. (Remember he didn't have to do so overtly or directly, but a reminder that her servants would just be killed could have convinced Lyanna to acquiesce, and explain the apparent lack of struggle.)

I do find it odd though that Lyanna makes the statement about not liking how Robert had a bastard child in the Vale (Mya Stone) but then ran off to be the "other woman".

I personally agree on that point, but maybe Lyanna felt differently about Rhaeger because he was agreeing to a marriage arranged by his lord while Robert was just engaging in recreational sex.

[The Storm Queen]

I also lean toward the 'Rhaegar was not a rapist', camp, but I've got a crazy theory about him and Lyanna. I don't think they were in love (or at least that Rhaegar loved her). I think Rhaegar ran off with her with the intent to father another prophecy-child, as suggested by his words in the House of the Undying. I don't think he was in love with Lyanna, or with Elia - I think he was in the closet.

And I swear by the Seven that I thought so before Dance.

Well this would be the mother of all trope subversions and I´d really love to see Martin going there, but I fear he won´t

[WolveseatDragons]

Stereo,

That's certainly a fair assessment that Rhaegar could have raped her. I'm just saying that it seems unlikely because of who he was and who she was. He was certainly no Gregor Clegaine, if anything he seems to be most like Loras Tyrell. Lyanna was no Brienne either but she was no wallflower and was likely KoLT but at a minimum someone that regularly beat her formidable brothers in play combat. It is just much more likely she was willing than not, though certainly it is technically possible otherwise.

[rmanoj]

To him, though, the fallout may be the wholesale slaughter of the human race. He might risk pissing off Lord Stark for that. He may or may not have known how rash Brandon was. The point is that we do not know his reasons, and normally, his actions would not have ended in war. War was contingent on his father's unreasonable action, which he could not predict. You can't predict when a crazy person is going to unhinge and in what way.

Possibly. I suppose I have a hard time relating to someone who would stake so much on a prophecy.

You're right that he couldn't have predicted the exact sequence of events or that it would go as far as an actual war, but he knew he'd created a political crisis involving several of the most important people in the realm and he also knew that his father was mad and unfit to govern. Yet he still disappeared for a while and left only his father to deal with it. He can't have imagined it would all be settled amicably.

That's certainly a fair assessment that Rhaegar could have raped her. I'm just saying that it seems unlikely because of who he was and who she was. He was certainly no Gregor Clegaine, if anything he seems to be most like Loras Tyrell. Lyanna was no Brienne either but she was no wallflower and was likely KoLT but at a minimum someone that regularly beat her formidable brothers in play combat. It is just much more likely she was willing than not, though certainly it is technically possible otherwise.

I agree with you on the personalities and that Rhaegar wouldn't have raped her... but as for physical fighting - well, she trashed Benjen, who was younger and smaller than her, when they were pre-pubescent kids (not her other brothers - they were much older and that would have been quite strange). You can't really base anything on that. We know that she certainly had a natural skill with swords and was an excellent rider, but on the other hand she was a 14 year old girl and noted to be quite small. Rhaegar was a tall, grown man and an accomplished warrior.

[Sasha Steelsong]

There's clearly serious doubts a to how willing Lyanna was (I fall in the willing camp) so why can't we further question the alleged abduction? Could Rhaegar have been keeping her safe from Areys? Remember, this is the guy who murdered Rickard and Brandon. Why would he stop there?

Especially since after Rickard and Brandon were dead Aerys went and called for Ned's head as well. Never thought of it that way (I tend to think Lyanna left more willingly than not, and that there were probably some practical communication problems between Rhaegar and the current news of the day such that he was probably finding out about stuff well after it happened) but that combined with the fact that Aerys was holding Elia and the children hostage definitely could have given Rhegar pause about willingly walking Lyanna into the mix at KL.

[corbon]

A Crown prince has to be responsible for other people and should always take into account the probable political fallout of his actions. Otherwise he should just abandon his claim to the throne, as Prince Duncan the Small did in favour of Jaehaerys II. Now, we can pontificate with our modern mindsets on Rhaegar and Lyanna having the right to do what they want, Brandon having no right to interfere etc, but a man in Rhaegar's position should have been considering the facts and the realistic outcomes, if he wanted to avoid a lot of ugliness and death.

Most likely he did consider the facts and realistic outcomes.

Note that Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together, however it was, did not start a war. Neither Rickard nor Robert called their banners.

Brandon's action was neither reasonable nor a realistically to-be-expected outcome. No one expects a moronic reaction like riding up to the palace and demanding the crown prince come out and die (not just treason, but stupid and useless treason). Reasonable expected actions are following due process, to get her back (or reparations), or for a hot-head, attempting to get his sister back violently - which Rhaegar and Lyanna have subverted by disappearing and not telling anyone (excpet perhaps one or two key trusted people like Hightower) where they are going.

But even after Brandon's stupid action it wasn't yet war. Rickard came south for a trial without calling his banners for war.

It was not only Aerys' murderous 'trial' but his calling for the innocent Ned and Robert's heads too that actually caused the rebellion.

[jarl the climber]

I don't think Robert beleived the rape story himself. After Ned is injured by Jamie and after he hits Cersie he complains to Ned that Rhaegar really won, Rhaegar is with Lyanna and he is stuck with Cersei. This doesn't really fit with his earlier statement about her being raped by him. Deep down inside I don't think Robert beleived that.

[GreyDeLeon]

I don't think Robert beleived the rape story himself. After Ned is injured by Jamie and after he hits Cersie he complains to Ned that Rhaegar really won, Rhaegar is with Lyanna and he is stuck with Cersei. This doesn't really fit with his earlier statement about her being raped by him. Deep down inside I don't think Robert beleived that.

What else could Ned have told him? What could explain her death without endangering Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child? And if Robert were ever to find out Ned could ask for mercy saying the child did not choose his birth.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I also lean toward the 'Rhaegar was not a rapist', camp, but I've got a crazy theory about him and Lyanna. I don't think they were in love (or at least that Rhaegar loved her). I think Rhaegar ran off with her with the intent to father another prophecy-child, as suggested by his words in the House of the Undying. I don't think he was in love with Lyanna, or with Elia - I think he was in the closet. And I swear by the Seven that I thought so before Dance.

Yes and its likely Lyanna believed the same Courtsey of Howland Reed and the Greenmen. Anyway, there's little doubt she could kick Rahegar's ass.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

Jon Connington's love for Rhaegar was unrequited though, regardless.

I was thrown out of N.Y.U. my freshman year for cheating on my metaphysics final, you know. I looked within the soul of the boy sitting next to me.

-Alvy Singer

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Annie_Hall

[Lord Over]

Whether he raped her is irrelevant. He took what wasn't his, he never even bothered asking and he brazenly crowned her in front of the masses disregarding his poor wife's feelings. Then he leaves his wife and children to hump furiously in a secluded tower and doesn't even try to fix the situation whilst the whole of Westeros burns.

Like many of his line, Rhaegar was a self-centered tool.