Drogo didn't rape Dany

[LifeRuiner]

My god, it was a joke. I meant the narrator is only for children, not that the book is. I may not have read it yet, but I'm not thick as shit - it's quite clearly not a book meant to be read by children.

Thank you, Onion!

Then I'm sorry, this is before my coffee and the play on words flew over my head. I have just had so many real life conversations with people who have not read the book that Lolita is pedo porn.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, it sounds harsh, but if that was the case they probably never would have had sex. Being a virgin, she wouldn't know whether she would enjoy it or not, especially with a guy who looked like Drogo. He had to do something to try and show that it wasn't going to be traumatic.

Comparably when Tyrion saw that Sansa was distressed he stopped.

I understand though that Drogo needed to consummate the marriage and that he doesn't see anything wrong with fucking little girls.

[Jayce]

Dany did become compliant and willing after she stopped crying. I'm making the point that it did not stop in the beginning when she wasn't willing.

Playing devil's advocate here as I'm not sure I believe this but;

We don't know that she wasn't willing because although she cried, was in pain, etc she at no point said no, nor did she remember it as a bad experience. Our own opinions aside, Dany, the person who it happened to, did not struggle against it and more importantly does not think of it as a bad experience (as far as we know).

[Natalie_S]

Well, it sounds harsh, but if that was the case they probably never would have had sex. Being a virgin, she wouldn't know whether she would enjoy it or not, especially with a guy who looked like Drogo. He had to do something to try and show that it wasn't going to be traumatic.

It would have been like Sansa/Tyrion!

[Jayce]

he doesn't see anything wrong with fucking little girls.

Why am I defending him :dunno:

To us she is a little girl, to him (and others in this world/fantasy place) she is a woman. That is a massive difference.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Yeah, pretty much Sansa and Tyrion all over. I don't think Sansa would have enjoyed it with Tyrion, because honestly I don't think he's capable of arousing a woman, but you get the idea. If Drogo stopped trying to have sex with her because she's scared, it will never happen, because she'd have always been scared of having sex until it happened. I feel like I'm getting confusing here. Did that make sense?

[eyeheartsansa]

I think it's pointless to compare RL laws and Westeros culture towards the age of consent. Everyone seems to be much too young for basically anything that happens in the book (ex: Robb leading a war at 14, or Tyrion marrying Tysha when they're both 13 -and Tywin's problem is that she's poor, not their age).

I think that Dany and Drogo's first night definitely wasn't rape: she explicitly gave consent, so that's ok.

As to the following nights... well, while I was reading that part i simply assumed that she was in pain because of the wounds she had from the saddle, and the Dothraki doggy-style position didn't help (In fact, as soon as her skins thickens, she stops finding sex painful too).

She hides her tears from him, and apparently he's not aware of her discomfort.

I thought that she should have said something, and that he was really hopeless in bed, but it looks more like a problem of culture/communication than an actual rape.

This, exactly.

[deleted01]

Then I'm sorry, this is before my coffee and the play on words flew over my head. I have just had so many real life conversations with people who have not read the book that Lolita is pedo porn.

Ugh, some people. Well, fortunately for you, I'm not an ignorant fool like that. I have a general idea of what the book is about, seeing as it was recommended to me by my cousin who wrote about it in her dissertation, it's just still on my very big to-read pile.

Comparably when Tyrion saw that Sansa was distressed he stopped.

I understand though that Drogo needed to consummate the marriage and that he doesn't see anything wrong with fucking little girls.

Emotive language. It's easy to forget that Dany is a little girl, being married, getting pregnant, walking into a fire, birthing dragons, raising an army and conquering cities, and all. No, he sees nothing wrong with "fucking little girls", because to him, Dany isn't a little girl; she's a princess, his wife, old enough to be wedded and bedded and bear him a son.

[ARYa_Nym]

Why am I defending him :dunno:

To us she is a little girl, to him (and others in this world/fantasy place) she is a woman. That is a massive difference.

Yes, the cultural relativism argument. IDK what the age requirement is for Dothraki.I wouldn't be surprised though that once they're 13 it's fair game. I know in Westeros she would be a woman at 16. She's a maiden at 13 but Drogo's culture says she's ready.

Playing devil's advocate here as I'm not sure I believe this but;

We don't know that she wasn't willing because although she cried, was in pain, etc she at no point said no, nor did she remember it as a bad experience. Our own opinions aside, Dany, the person who it happened to, did not struggle against it and more importantly does not think of it as a bad experience (as far as we know).

GRRM wanted to turn it into a romance though so she needed to become magically willing and look back on it positively.

[Natalie_S]

Yeah, pretty much Sansa and Tyrion all over. I don't think Sansa would have enjoyed it with Tyrion, because honestly I don't think he's capable of arousing a woman, but you get the idea. If Drogo stopped trying to have sex with her because she's scared, it will never happen, because she'd have always been scared of having sex until it happened. I feel like I'm getting confusing here. Did that make sense?

hey, that's a bit unfair!

He definitely was appealing to Tysha, Septa Lemore is sort of flirting with him and Penny is head over heels for him.

Sansa can't bring herself to like him because she's is scared for her life, depressed, half her family has just been murdered, and she sees Tyrion as a Lannister enemy that will prove that she's a traitor and have her head chopped off, but that's hardly a reliable source about his charms.

[eyeheartsansa]

Yes, the cultural relativism argument. IDK what the age requirement is for Dothraki.I wouldn't be surprised though that once they're 13 it's fair game. I know in Westeros she would be a woman at 16. She's a maiden at 13 but Drogo's culture says she's ready.

Based on Sansa's experience, one can surmise that a girl's first moonblood is the rite of passage to adulthood and marriage eligibility. Tyrion is still uncomfortable with bedding someone so young, but it is expected of him.

We don't know for a fact that this is the same for Dothraki, but it seems likely.

Yeah, pretty much Sansa and Tyrion all over. I don't think Sansa would have enjoyed it with Tyrion, because honestly I don't think he's capable of arousing a woman

Not fair! Cunnilingus, done correctly, is a great equalizer because any man can learn to do it. I expect Tyrion's tongue is a thing of legend in the whorehouses.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

hey, that's a bit unfair!

He definitely was appealing to Tysha, Septa Lemore is sort of flirting with him and Penny is head over heels for him.

Sansa can't bring herself to like him because she's is scared for her life, depressed, half her family has just been murdered, and she sees Tyrion as a Lannister enemy that will prove that she's a traitor and have her head chopped off, but that's hardly a reliable source about his charms.

Yeah, I suppose that could have something to do with it too :P

[Jayce]

Yes, the cultural relativism argument. IDK what the age requirement is for Dothraki.I wouldn't be surprised though that once they're 13 it's fair game. I know in Westeros she would be a woman at 16. She's a maiden at 13 but Drogo's culture says she's ready.

Aye.

GRRM wanted to turn it into a romance though so she needed to become magically willing and look back on it positively.

You may just be right.

[ARYa_Nym]

Based on Sansa's experience, one can surmise that a girl's first moonblood is the rite of passage to adulthood and marriage eligibility. Tyrion is still uncomfortable with bedding someone so young, but it is expected of him.

We don't know for a fact that this is the same for Dothraki, but it seems likely.

A 13 year old is referred to a child-woman or maiden. Many men wait until the girl is 15/16 to consummate the marriage. Men may have sex with a 13 year old in Westeros but she is not considered a woman yet.

Evamitchelle posted this earlier:

The nature of the relationship between Sandor and Sansa has been a hot topic on Revanshe's board. Sansa's youth has been one focus of the discussion. What is the general Westerosi view as to romantic or sexual relationships involving a girl of Sansa's age and level of physical maturity?

A boy is Westeros is considered to be a "man grown" at sixteen years. The same is true for girls. Sixteen is the age of legal majority, as twenty-one is for us.

However, for girls, the first flowering is also very significant... and in older traditions, a girl who has flowered is a woman, fit for both wedding and bedding.

A girl who has flowered, but not yet attained her sixteenth name day, is in a somewhat ambigious position: part child, part woman. A "maid," in other words. Fertile but innocent, beloved of the singers.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them. And such early weddings, even without sex, remain rare. Generally weddings are postponed until the bride has passed from girlhood to maidenhood.

Maidens may be wedded and bedded... however, even there, many husbands will wait until the bride is fifteen or sixteen before sleeping with them. Very young mothers tend to have significantly higher rates of death in childbirth, which the maesters will have noted.

As in the real Middle Ages, highborn girls tend to flower significantly earlier than those of lower birth. Probably a matter of nutrition. As a result, they also tend to marry earlier, and to bear children earlier.

There are plenty of exceptions.

[eyeheartsansa]

GRRM wanted to turn it into a romance though so she needed to become magically willing and look back on it positively.

I think this is a perfectly fair assessment. If the story had been written by, say, Margaret Atwood, Dany's recollections would read much differently. In the world GRRM created, Dany doesnt' feel that she was raped. You can critique GRRM for writing it that way, but that's a whole other box of snakes.

A 13 year old is referred to a child-woman or maiden. Many men wait until the girl is 15/16 to consummate the marriage. Men may have sex with a 13 year old in Westeros but she is not considered a woman yet.

In the "general Westerosi view," well, girls may well be wed before their first flowerings, for political reasons, but it would considered perverse to bed them

hm.. perhaps Sansa's situation was special due to her hostage status and that Tywin wanted to lock down a family claim to Winterfell. I was getting my info from the Lannisters, hardly a paragon of virtue and chivalry.

[LifeRuiner]

Ugh, some people. Well, fortunately for you, I'm not an ignorant fool like that. I have a general idea of what the book is about, seeing as it was recommended to me by my cousin who wrote about it in her dissertation, it's just still on my very big to-read pile.

You will at least enjoy the language! Nabokov was big on creating the atmosphere but not on obvious moral lessons. I like this novel enough to even have the annotated edition :)

I'm bailing out on the rape discussion because it is in the eye of the beholder. The age doesn't bother me as much as the fact that forcing someone to have painful sex is narratively presented to me as a romantic relationship.

[Natalie_S]

Not fair! Cunnilingus, done correctly, is a great equalizer because any man can learn to do it. I expect Tyrion's tongue is a thing of legend in the whorehouses.

Well, that's a way. :)

But I'd like to underline that if Sansa is not attracted to Tyrion, it doesn't necessarily mean that no one else is!

[mor2]

She hides her tears from him, and apparently he's not aware of her discomfort.

I thought that she should have said something, and that he was really hopeless in bed, but it looks more like a problem of culture/communication than an actual rape.

I dont think that he cares, nothing I seen of the Dothraki suggest emotional intimacy, the woman should be happy to be with the biggest strongest warrior, they dont have privacy, they fuck in the open, they take turns and if objections are raised, they are settled with the Arak...

[Lyanna Stark]

I think this is a perfectly fair assessment. If the story had been written by, say, Margaret Atwood, Dany's recollections would read much differently. In the world GRRM created, Dany doesnt' feel that she was raped. You can critique GRRM for writing it that way, but that's a whole other box of snakes.

This was what I was doing btw, hence the "lack of suspension of disbelief".

IMO if Dany had been older and less terrified, it would have been more believable, but as it is now, and especially contrasting it to Sansa/Tyrion where Sansa is very near Dany's original age and the power dynamic similar, but the outcome completely different, it just doesn't work that well.

[Natalie_S]

Oh I don't know, the Dothraki surely are pretty rough and brutal, but Drogo was caring on their first night, and later he and Dany became definitely close.