From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

But he may have experienced a mean satisfaction in beholding Stark's death...

I dont think it was so much satisfaction as driving in the point that...in the end titles, honor, knighthood, etc...mean nothing to the edge of a sword.

[Kittykatknits]

I dont think it was so much satisfaction as driving in the point that...in the end titles, honor, knighthood, etc...mean nothing to the edge of a sword.

That sounds more accurate. Remember what the EB said as well? He killed and served but took no real pleasure or satisfaction in it. He does call himself a butcher but satisfaction over Ned's death doesn't really match with his personality.

Note, I'm not saying he grieved over it either.....

[Lyanna Stark]

That sounds more accurate. Remember what the EB said as well? He killed and served but took no real pleasure or satisfaction in it. He does call himself a butcher but satisfaction over Ned's death doesn't really match with his personality.

Note, I'm not saying he grieved over it either.....

Agreed on that. However, he seems to have recognised it as wrong, since he mention it to Arya in the same sentence as when he says he stood by and let them beat Sansa. Maybe he ended up taking Sansa's side on this issue once he started sympathising with her more. Not that I think he's totally cold and unfeeling, but it seems odd he'd bring Ned's death up, of all things, in that context.

[Megara]

I'm convinced that if Sandor knew of his plans that he would have gone to Cersei. Tyrion makes that rather obvious when he thinks about getting a whore for Joffrey. Tyrion reflects that he'd have to get Sandor away first or else he would go running to Cersei. If Sandor would go to her for something like this, not much of a leap to figure he would go to her for something like killing Ned.

Yes, Sandor would've ran to Cersei and told her about Joffrey's plans. The beheading of Eddard Stark caused a lot of problems for everybody, it really started the whole war, so I don't think a man like Sandor (who we know has "commander" skills to lead people into battle, is smart enough to disguise himself as a farmer to get to the Twins, and has sufficient knowledge about such themes as the Starks ancient line) would just let a brat go and kill a precious hostage without warning the Queen; he would've known what Ned Stark's death would bring to all of them...

Back into Sansa, I don't think Aegon would accept Sansa as his queen, the Stark fought against the Targaryens after all. Tyrion had just killed his father and fled King's Landing, hating his whole Lannister family, so he becomes a useful and "faithful" ally for Aegon to fight agains the "lions". But Sansa loves her family, she's a Stark and I don't imagine her going against her whole family just to be accepted by Aegon.

[1234567]

Back into Sansa, I don't think Aegon would accept Sansa as his queen, the Stark fought against the Targaryens after all. Tyrion had just killed his father and fled King's Landing, hating his whole Lannister family, so he becomes a useful and "faithful" ally for Aegon to fight agains the "lions". But Sansa loves her family, she's a Stark and I don't imagine her going against her whole family just to be accepted by Aegon.

The whole war started because his father fell in love with a Stark girl. Aegon might see it as history repeating itself: his father loved the daughter of Lord Stark, and here is another pretty daughter of another Lord Stark.

While Ned fought against the Targs, it was widely known that he condemned the killing of Ella and her children and wanted Jaime to take the black as punishment for killing the king. The Lannisters and Robert are the real villians in the piece if we see it from the Targ POV. If Connington and Co defeat the Tyrells and Lannisters in battle, then they still face subduing the Riverlands, the full force of the Vale and the North (whilst keeping the Lannisters and Tyrells in check). A marriage to Sansa would almost ensure the Riverlands bends knee, along with the Vale and the North (all of whom hate the Lannisters far more than the Targs). It would stop a very small invasion force of the Golden Company, with the small forces of Dorne and the Tyrell Bannermen who defect to Aegon (Tarly and Hightower being the major bets) in one fell swope. It would also possibly ensure more peace.

Also I can see Aegon falling for Sansa: her story is pretty much heroic now. Also they have very similar shared experiences. Also I think (and there is some small textual back up for this) that LF will already be spreading stories of the cruel treatment of Sansa by the Lannisters, her bravery in the face of it and of course her innocence in all matters.

[Queen of Spades]

Agreed on that. However, he seems to have recognised it as wrong, since he mention it to Arya in the same sentence as when he says he stood by and let them beat Sansa. Maybe he ended up taking Sansa's side on this issue once he started sympathising with her more. Not that I think he's totally cold and unfeeling, but it seems odd he'd bring Ned's death up, of all things, in that context.

He wants to anger Arya... so he brings out arguments that are susceptible to touch her : Mycah (her friend), Sansa (her sister), Eddard (her father). Not that odd.

[TerraPrime]

I still want Sansa to end up with Sandor, though... but will we get what we want ?

Oh gag me with a wooden spoon already. Sandor is in the wrong series all together. He should have been in Twilight, as the mopey, emo, slightly crispy, moderately stalker-ish, utterly repulsive beta-meale vampire who is so emotionally wounded and angst-ridden that it triggers every girlfriend-as-mother complex within a 10-mile radius. Sansa is so lucky that she got away from him.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh gag me with a wooden spoon already. Sandor is in the wrong series all together. He should have been in Twilight, as the mopey, emo, slightly crispy, moderately stalker-ish, utterly repulsive beta-meale vampire who is so emotionally wounded and angst-ridden that it triggers every girlfriend-as-mother complex within a 10-mile radius. Sansa is so lucky that she got away from him.

Tssk tssk, he's not NEARLY as pretty as anyone in Twilight. Trust me, I have read that particular pile of poo and ugly people are automatically bad, pretty people are good and Edward is where prettiness meets godliness, plus his main hobby is stalking Bella in her bedroom without her knowing and constantly telling her that she doesn't know anything and should do what he tells her since she's totally hopeless at everything, like putting on her own shoes in the morning. Bella agrees with this assessment.

Sandor doesn't have a pretty (and rich) family, which is also important in Twilight. And he doesn't make Sansa faint with bedazzlement by his mere presence, nor can he run faster than cars.

Even more importantly, where is the sparkling in the sunlight?

[TerraPrime]

Even more importantly, where is the sparkling in the sunlight?

Your feminazism has blinded you to the obvious fact: Sandor is so pretty and sparkly that the sparkles CAUGHT ON FIRE!! Like that one time when Michael Jackson's hair caught on fire. Sandor was SO pretty that his sparkle output exceeded the literary limit and ended up disfiguring him.

Plus, I think Sandor was plenty stalker-ish. In fact, if you look at Sandy-poo's iPod, I bet you will find

.

You know nothing.

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh gag me with a wooden spoon already. Sandor is in the wrong series all together. He should have been in Twilight, as the mopey, emo, slightly crispy, moderately stalker-ish, utterly repulsive beta-meale vampire who is so emotionally wounded and angst-ridden that it triggers every girlfriend-as-mother complex within a 10-mile radius. Sansa is so lucky that she got away from him.

I've never read Twilight or seen the movies (if I want to see a former male model act in the role of a hair-gelled vampire, I'll watch my Buffy and Angel dvds, I just could never see Robert Pattinson as a vampire). But I do harbor serious doubts as to the viability of a long-term SanSan relationship. He's an extremely damaged, emotionally stunted alcoholic who is prone to threats and violence; and Sansa is a girl who has been physically abused, stressed, sexually threatened, molested to the point that I'm not sure that a normal romantic/physical relationship will even be possible for her when she grows up. There is an undeniable chemistry and bond between the characters; and it's obvious that Sandor cares for the girl, I just don't think he's husband or long-term boyfriend material. It's sad that the most trustworthy man in Sansa's life in the last two years, the man who has been the most honest with her and has saved her life and given her valuable advice, has been Sandor; Sansa should have had other and better options - but that's Westeros, and GRRM's writing, and it's very compelling.

I can't see Sandor having a long romantic or marital relationship with an older Sansa; not unless he's changed a lot on the Quiet Isle, and then he wouldn't necessarily be Sandor anymore. I can see him dying for her :crying: , or becoming her sworn shield but not her lover, or returning eventually to the Quiet Isle.

[Valkyrja]

As sad as it makes me, I do see Sandor dying for her. I don't want that to happen, but GRRM likes to stick the knife in...and give it a twist. :crying:

That said, is someone *seriously* comparing Sandor with a TWILIGHT vampire????? :ack:

Why is it so wrong or ridiculous that a character such as Sandor should exist in ASoIaF? He may not even show up again, for all we know. Or, he could show up again and have nothing to do with Sansa's storyline (a possibility). Perhaps he will show up again merely to deal with Ser Robert Strong, and that's it. THAT would never be possible for a 'Twilight hero'.

If there is any character that deserves such ire in the series, hands down that would be Darkstar (for he is of the night). :P

Edited to add: Forgot to say that the analysis of the similarities between Aegon and Sansa are indeed striking, thank you for pointing that out! :)

[Valkyrja]

I can't see Sandor having a long romantic or marital relationship with an older Sansa; not unless he's changed a lot on the Quiet Isle, and then he wouldn't necessarily be Sandor anymore. I can see him dying for her :crying: , or becoming her sworn shield but not her lover, or returning eventually to the Quiet Isle.

I also wonder if by the time Sansa and Sandor meet each other again (if they even do so), both of them will be so changed as to almost reverse roles. Perhaps they may not find each other as compelling as before.... :crying:

GRRM.....sometimes I hate you. :bawl:

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

...and we don't know.....we will all have to wait another 20 yrs to find out :( :( :(

Im holding out hope he becomes the man she deserves....mainly because he already is and just needs to accept and grasp it and fully REALIZE it.

I also think even he knew Ned was an honorable man and as close to being a true knight as a man could get...which is why his death was all the more tragic that it should end by the word of an immoral, evil brat. This only further disillusioned him about knighthood and lordship.

[Queen of Winter]

I want to briefly touch again what Lyanna and Brash said about Serwyn of the Mirrorshield. When I think of Serwyn I (obviously) think of Perseus from Greek Mythology.

Perseus: Perseus was the Greek hero who killed the Gorgon Medusa, and claimed Andromeda, having rescued her from a sea monster sent by Poseidon in retribution for Queen Cassiopeia declaring herself more beautiful than the Nereids.

In his conquest, he received a mirrored shield from Athena, gold, winged sandals from Hermes, a sword from Hephaestus and Hades' helm of invisibility. Medusa was the only one of the three Gorgons who was mortal, so Perseus was able to slay her while looking at the reflection from the mirrored shield he received from Athena.

Medusa: ("guardian, protectress") was a Gorgon, a chthonic monster . Gazing directly upon her would turn onlookers to stone. She was beheaded by the hero Perseus, who thereafter used her head as a weapon until he gave it to the goddess Athena to place on her shield. In classical antiquity the image of the head of Medusa appeared in the evil-averting device known as the Gorgoneion.

I'm not saying Perseus is similar to Sandor, (but who knows!) I'm just adding to what I wrote in reply to Lyanna's earlier post.

But interesting enough, here we have again reference to stone/turning to stone. And there is also the mentioning of a head as a device on a shield (reminds me of the Titan's head Petyr has on his shield: The Titan of Braavos). Also, chthonic means: "in, under, or beneath the earth" (remember those caves!)

The only thing I can come up with that 's similar to Serwyn's mirrorshield/ Perseus mirrorshield in the ASOIAF world, is the plain white Kingsguard shield. There are no devices upon the shield, it's stark white. I would imagine it's very shiny; maybe you could see a reflection in it.

Andromeda might be Sansa (though I can see where this myth might also apply to Dany's arc, as it makes a lot of sense too--the sea monster being Victarion, Poseidon (stated as a "tamer of horses"), being Euron) either way there's interesting stuff here:

Andromeda is a princess from Greek mythology who, as divine punishment for her mother's bragging, the Boast of Cassiopeia, was chained to a rock as a sacrifice to a sea monster.

Not that it has anything to do with GRRM's story at this point in time, but didn't it say in the books that after Theon sacked Winterfell, he was going to marry Sansa to "cement" his claim?

She was saved from death by Perseus, her future husband. Her name is the Latinized form of the Greek Ἀνδρομέδη (Andromédē). The traditional etymology of the name is "she who has bravery in her mind" from ἀνδρός (anēr, andrós) "man" as in "soldier", and similarly ἀνδρεία ("bravery") combined with μήδομαι (mēdomai) "to think, to be mindful of." Alternatively it could mean "she who leads".

Perhaps the "bravery in her mind" bit, is her thinking that she would be brave "like a lady in a song" or "bastard brave" in regards to her Alayne persona?

The subject has been popular in art since classical times, as well as the princess and dragon motif in general. From the Renaissance interest revived in the original story, typically as derived from Ovid's account.

Interesting theme about the princess and the dragon. I know that many people think that the Sansa/Aegon hook-up won't happen, and I'm definitely not saying it will, but could this mean that we might see some kind of marriage/betrothal to Aegon?(Whether or not he's a Targ or a Blackfyre, he's still some sort of dragon). It could be a clue that Petyr is going to forgo the Harry the Heir marriage and is thinking to set her up with Aegon.

Perseus was returning from having slain the Gorgon Medusa. He found Andromeda and slew Cetus by approaching invisible with Hades's helm and slaying him. He set her free, and married her in spite of Andromeda having been previously promised to her uncle Phineus. At the wedding a quarrel took place between the rivals, and Phineus was turned to stone by the sight of the Gorgon's head.

Also interesting that we see mentioned "stone" and "turning to stone", especially when dragons and stone have been mentioned together (and perhaps there is a link to the "Stone" last name as well, i.e. Alayne Stone.)

Will be back later with other thoughts..........

[brashcandy]

Great work as usual, QoW. Did you consider that Sandor might end up slaying Sansa's mother: Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart/Medusa, who's quite monsterish now? This would complicate matters with Sansa to say the least.

That said, is someone *seriously* comparing Sandor with a TWILIGHT vampire????? :ack: Why is it so wrong or ridiculous that a character such as Sandor should exist in ASoIaF? He may not even show up again, for all we know. Or, he could show up again and have nothing to do with Sansa's storyline (a possibility). Perhaps he will show up again merely to deal with Ser Robert Strong, and that's it. THAT would never be possible for a 'Twilight hero'.

The thing is, I know we all joke about Sandor's stalker-esque tendencies, but in reality, he honestly didn't stalk Sansa that much. In ACOK there was the incident when she went to the godswood and on her way back he stumbled out of the doorway and she bumped into him, but it's unclear whether he was waiting for her or if it was just a coincidence. After this comes the beating in court and then the riot scene. She's the one to find him on the rooftop on the eve of the Blackwater battle and then we have the infamous bedroom scene, which might strike some people as extremely creepy :) Anyways, I find LF much more disturbing and definitely much more of a stalker, although he doesn't rely on close physical proximity to ensure his surveillance.

[Valkyrja]

There is a difference between a Twilight vampire watching a girl sleep every night for months without her knowing (and without interacting with her at any of those times), and Sandor 'running into' Sansa two or three times during the entire story. The whole 'stalking' thing is a trope of romance novels, yes, but I think in the Sandor/Sansa case it was legitimately the only way for them to have remotely intimate conversations with each other that would not cast suspicion on either of them, or draw undue attention to their 'relationship'. (Perhaps the only way for them to have any connection whatsoever that later on Littlefinger won't know about?) Also, Sansa and the Hound mostly had short, somewhat heated discussions during these moments......and it was not simply one character creepily watching the other sleep for all hours of the night, or the two making out with each other in secret. :P

P.S. I agree, pervy LF is a far creepier stalker than the in-your-face Hound could ever be. ;)

[Queen of Winter]

Great work as usual, QoW. Did you consider that Sandor might end up slaying Sansa's mother: Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart/Medusa, who's quite monsterish now? This would complicate matters with Sansa to say the least.

Thanks brash! :blushing: Glad to see some people find my crazy ramblings interesting!

The thought about Sandor slaying UnCat did cross my mind, though for some reason, if one of our three "heroes" kills her, I think it might be Brienne that winds up doing it (if only for the connection she has with Catelyn.) But I could be wrong, of course!

I do think Brienne is supposed to parallel Symeon, and Sandor, Serwyn.

There also seems to be a theme here about blindness and eyes. According to legend, Symeon was a knight who lost both of his eyes and was blind, replacing his eyes with sapphires. I also keep thinking back to the "blind old hound" Sansa found in Petyr's keep, on the Fingers.

Though perhaps Sandor will kill UnCat and is somehow blinded or loses an eye or maybe it is indeed Brienne, that loses an eye or is blinded--that would be such a cruel blow, since it's said her eyes are the only thing that's physically beautiful about her.

Also if I might add it's interesting too that Serywn slew Urrax the dragon by putting a sword through his eye.

[Devaki Khanna]

@Lyanna - I see your point and I don't disagree, but the way I took those derogatory comments about Harry is that he wants to ensure that Sansa doesn't get too attached to the idea of Harry. I don't know if I can explain it clearly, but it has to do with the way LF has put down any other man that Sansa was associated with, like Willas for ex. So, he's saying to her, you'll be required to seduce Harry which you shouldn't mind too much because he has all those handsome charming qualities you like in a guy (not realizing that she no longer likes that), but don't get too attached because he's just a silly, disposable boy that we are just using as a pawn. So he is trying to entice her to play his game but I agree that with the derogatory comments about Harry he's also saying Harry is not in your league and in the end the only guy who is good for you is me. Does this make any sense?

He also tries to put down Tyrion, when they are leaving King's Landing on his boat, the Merling King, and he tells her what happened to Tysha. So yes, he is trying to influence her thinking, but he does not realise that she is intelligent enough to take a hint! See her scene with Lysa in Littlefinger's holdfast--I think she mentions Tyrion going to whores.

[Devaki Khanna]

I'm going to be honest, Anything Taragaryen isn't terribly interesting to me (blashphemy I know) but is it definite he's a fake. Isn't the dragon supposed to have 3 heads or some such. Maybe Aegon will be in a position of power when all is said and done.

I think it could be interesting if Sansa is paired with someone where SHE is the cynical one in the relationship and the guy is the more romantic. Aegon's been training and fighting (but hasn't had to contend with the callousness that only the nobility can display) for years according to Connington but Sansa has been a prisoner of war since the end of GoT (she's experienced physical violence but not murder as of yet).

It would also continue GRRM's continued habit of having Sansa forge a relationship with just about EVERY powerful man in Westeros by actions, name or deed. Though if Aegon is a fake I wouldn't want Sansa involved because she really does have enough problems.

I still haven't decided. I think a lot depends on how things go with Lord Robin. Sansa doesn't enjoy caring for him and she seems to be conditioning herself into a "I have to look out for myself" mindset. Her constantly reminding herself that she's alone in the world and what not.

I love that Sansa is so compassionate but I do worry about her fate. The North has washed their hands of her. It started with Robb and Cat, when Robb wanted to make sure she was disinherited because she was married to a Lannister. I can't be the only one that felt like they were throwing in the towel in terms of rescuing Sansa at that point.

Stannis sneeringly refers to Sansa as "Lady Lannister" when Jon Snow (JON of all people) says that she should be the next to inherit Winterfell.

The Manderly's need a Stark Heir and they decide to find Rickon. They don't seem to even consider Sansa an option. Her being wanted for Regicide could have something to do with it but The North is very much resentful of the Iron Throne these days so I don't see why that would hinder Sansa as an option.

The only person that seems to "care" for her (For Now) is Petyr. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't turn on Baelish for some time. Like towards the end of the series and in the mean time worked with him to advance their agendas.

So many potential interesting choices both character-wise and politically. Aegon, Sandor, Tyrion (unlikely but possible) and maybe it's just fan interest on my part but I wouldn't mind seeing her rule as Lady of High Garden if Margaery meets a bad end. Another one that might be interesting though I can't imagine how they would meet (and I'm not sure how old he is) but Trystane Martell. Though I think the Sand Snakes might freak her out.

Sansa really is a character that can play well off just about anybody.

Re: Lord Manderley choosing Rickon is because Westeros is a feudal society where the youngest male of the family precedes his eldest sister when it comes to property ownership. Robb and Cat have to let her go because they feel that as a Lannister wife, she will have to consummate her marriage--they do not see her as a strong person at all. The same goes for Stannis--in his case, he is Stephen to her Matilda, with Jon being Robert of Gloucester. Or (keeping in mind his "reformist" religious tendencies and her associaton with the faith of the Seven, via her mother, he could be John Knox to her Mary Queen of Scots.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I agree....LF's belief that Sansa even has a claim to Winterfell resides on the belief that Bran and Rickon are dead.....which we know is not the case.

lord Manderley is simply going after the RIGHTFUL heirs....the ones next in line of succession. Naturally, they are choosing Rickon (as no one has the slightest idea where Bran is)