From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Grail King]

A lot of people hanging on this thread have changed their avatar lately… It’s confusing! :wacko:

I do miss the soccer girl of Lyanna Stark :)

[voodooqueen126]

Really? I find that interesting. In my mind, the damsel in distress trope has little to nothing to do with that of the virgin queen. The damsel in distress is an essentially helpless figure whose power lies in her youth and desirability. Not so the virgin queen. She has power of her own and, notably, does not need to be rescued. And also very different from the damsel in distress, who, whatever the posings about “true love”, is, in the end, basically counted worthy for her younth and desirability, the virgin queen’s worth and power is not predicated on her looks, sexual status, age, or desirability. You note the virgin queen archetype as an extension of “virgin women are pure/ innately good” line of thinking. I definitely agree with you that that line of thinking is utterly fallacious and annoying. However, I think that, rather than being a figure that is praised and idolized, the virgin queen archetype—a woman who has, by choice, chosen not to be sexually active, and has chosen power over love—is a figure that is distasteful and threatening to men and women alike. From the virgin goddesses of old to Queen Elizabeth the first, the instance of a woman choosing to forgo sex and live autonomously has been something that has created highly ambivalent reactions amongst the public. For instance, Lytton Strachey, in his biography of Queen Elizabeth I, dedicated copious amounts of time theorizing that she was somehow physically unable to have sex based on a deep seated psychological condition that led her to associate sex with death. Pretty much ignoring the highly sound political reasons she had for staying single. At any rate, I think the “virgin queen” archetype is, rather than glorified, often portrayed with ambivalence, fear, and distain.After all, what is wrong with a woman who doesn’t want sex? Particularly an attractive woman? And who wants power instead? Wants power more than love and sex with a wonderful man? Something must be wrong with such a woman, indeed. It’s no wonder that Salmon Rushdie characterized Queen Elizabeth I as “a real cold fish.”

Yes but you must ask yourself what kind of idiot would want power more than children and sex.

Hence the tendency to speculate that Queen Elizabeth was frigid...

[Grail King]

A lot of people hanging on this thread have changed their avatar lately… It’s confusing! :wacko:

I just wanted to make a small statement with this one.

[Grail King]

Yes but you must ask yourself what kind of idiot would want power more than children and sex. Hence the tendency to speculate that Queen Elizabeth was frigid...

I think she made a decision so as not to provide easy pawns (children ) for her enemy's.

I ask myself why do so many young people today opt for pets instead of children, esp. the more educated ones seem to not want children.

[Raksha the Demon]

I have the feeling that Ned tended to want to be an indulgent, kind father; to lead by example and allow his daughters at least a little latitude in their interests. Perhaps Catelyn was the same way; though it seems to have been more difficult for her to let Ned expose Bran, at a young age, to the harsh Stark tradition of he-who-passes-sentence-swings-the-sword (Bran was all of seven at the time!). Sansa, who seems to have been Catelyn's favorite between the two girls, was allowed to grow up very naive and sheltered; I doubt she knew the names of all of the Winterfell grooms and stableboys, the lower retainers and servants and their children; the way I believe young Catelyn would have known at least their names in Riverrun. Catelyn seemed to be pleased that Sansa was such a perfect little lady, good at needlework, possessing perfect manners, being an expert at banner identification and history, etc. Not that these things are unimportant, far from it, for a girl who is destined to be the Lady of a noble house, but a girl destined to be the Lady of a Northern noble house should also know more about agriculture, stores, transportation, logistics of surviving Winter, etc. It could be that Sansa would have been taught that in the two or three years her parents imagined that she would have (at least) before she married and left Winterfell. Or perhaps Catelyn wanted a sunny Southern marriage for her more gentle daughter all along, which is certainly not unreasonable.

Arya was, I think, always Ned's favorite between his two daughters. She reminds him of his beloved lost sister, a constant trigger of the love he had for Lyanna (and some guilt over not protecting her more effectively, as a big brother); and he is inclined to indulge her craving for warrior training instead of insisting that she refine her needlework or wear clean dresses. Arya would make a perfect warrior princess, a Lady of a hard Northern holdfast, except that she would have no patience with dealing with vassals' wives or making political small talk - which is also necessary for a Lady whether she is a consort or a ruler or a regent of any holding. Arya is impatient, even for a nine-year-old, and is constantly either striking out at or running away from people or situations that displease or bore her.

Actually, Sansa and Arya are like two halves of an amazing person, each possessing what the other lacks. Sansa has always been more passive by nature; her coping measure is to please people in authority by her courtesies as well as to dig in and be patient and self-controlled. She is, by her own admission, not brave or wild, she tends to always do what is expected of her. Arya is reactive and agressive, she will hide, run, or strike out, sometimes all three, in a situation she finds unpleasant. She has only a thin veneer of manners, and when stressed, drops the veneer entirely in order to run or strike back. Arya does not want to please people unless it is in her own interest. She tends to be impatient, and, like Lyanna, very self-willed.

What both sisters share is a common depth of compassion towards others, even when it is not in their own self-interest; and a stubborn tendency to cling to the concepts they value. There are lines that both girls do not want to cross, and probably would not ever cross if they had not been orphaned and set loose in a friendless and dangerous world. Sansa is reluctant to lie and to give up the idea that there is still beauty and love and hope in the world (which is one reason, I think, Alayne keeps harping about there being no more songs, and how the good old days are gone and so is Sansa; I think she's trying to convince herself). Arya does not want to give up her memories of being Arya Stark of Winterfell, of her family and friends, of home, of the person she was and, at heart, still wants to be.

Unfortunately, both Sansa and Arya have come under the influence of morally dubious mentors who are trying to strip the girls of their core values, of their very identities as Stark daughters, of their original training to be good, kind and truthful individuals. While I admit that they should (and already have) learn to be less naive than their father about the realities of the world, it's heartbreaking to watch these kids be manipulated into amoral mindsets and deeds by mentors who want to transform them in ways that are more for the mentors' benefit than for the benefit of the young girls. Sansa and Arya needed the protection of powerful people to survive; and they are being sadly exploited (the only worse case is Jeyne Poole).

Back to Ned for a moment - I want to clarify that I don't blame him at all for Arya being his favorite; I would imagine that all parents have favorites among their children. He sacrificed his honor, which to Ned was an almost sacred thing (and something he was perfectly wiling to die for), to save Sansa's life; which says a lot about Ned as a man who loved all his children. I just get the feeling that he understood Arya better than he ever did Sansa - because Arya was a living echo of Lyanna and Brandon, the siblings that Ned had loved and lost too early. Sansa was a lot more like Ned than either of them realized; Sansa having Ned's naivete, idealism, and tendencies towards patience and caution. (perhaps Ned gravitated towards Arya because of the likeness to Lyanna and Brandon; Ned seems to have admired them more than he ever admired himself) I think he loved Sansa, was very proud of her beauty and considerable charm, and was willing to leave her education in the hands of his wife and the septa - which was the traditional role of fathers and daughters (particularly when the fathers had male heirs to educate) - and not take too close a look in what that education entailed. Ned was a man who could allow and admire differences in people and traditions; hence the acceptance and love for these very different daughters of his.

[voodooqueen126]

I have the feeling that Ned tended to want to be an indulgent, kind father; to lead by example and allow his daughters at least a little latitude in their interests. Perhaps Catelyn was the same way; though it seems to have been more difficult for her to let Ned expose Bran, at a young age, to the harsh Stark tradition of he-who-passes-sentence-swings-the-sword (Bran was all of seven at the time!). Sansa, who seems to have been Catelyn's favorite between the two girls, was allowed to grow up very naive and sheltered; I doubt she knew the names of all of the Winterfell grooms and stableboys, the lower retainers and servants and their children; the way I believe young Catelyn would have known at least their names in Riverrun. Catelyn seemed to be pleased that Sansa was such a perfect little lady, good at needlework, possessing perfect manners, being an expert at banner identification and history, etc. Not that these things are unimportant, far from it, for a girl who is destined to be the Lady of a noble house, but a girl destined to be the Lady of a Northern noble house should also know more about agriculture, stores, transportation, logistics of surviving Winter, etc. It could be that Sansa would have been taught that in the two or three years her parents imagined that she would have (at least) before she married and left Winterfell. Or perhaps Catelyn wanted a sunny Southern marriage for her more gentle daughter all along, which is certainly not unreasonable. Arya was, I think, always Ned's favorite between his two daughters. She reminds him of his beloved lost sister, a constant trigger of the love he had for Lyanna (and some guilt over not protecting her more effectively, as a big brother); and he is inclined to indulge her craving for warrior training instead of insisting that she refine her needlework or wear clean dresses. Arya would make a perfect warrior princess, a Lady of a hard Northern holdfast, except that she would have no patience with dealing with vassals' wives or making political small talk - which is also necessary for a Lady whether she is a consort or a ruler or a regent of any holding. Arya is impatient, even for a nine-year-old, and is constantly either striking out at or running away from people or situations that displease or bore her. Actually, Sansa and Arya are like two halves of an amazing person, each possessing what the other lacks. Sansa has always been more passive by nature; her coping measure is to please people in authority by her courtesies as well as to dig in and be patient and self-controlled. She is, by her own admission, not brave or wild, she tends to always do what is expected of her. Arya is reactive and agressive, she will hide, run, or strike out, sometimes all three, in a situation she finds unpleasant. She has only a thin veneer of manners, and when stressed, drops the veneer entirely in order to run or strike back. Arya does not want to please people unless it is in her own interest. She tends to be impatient, and, like Lyanna, very self-willed. What both sisters share is a common depth of compassion towards others, even when it is not in their own self-interest; and a stubborn tendency to cling to the concepts they value. There are lines that both girls do not want to cross, and probably would not ever cross if they had not been orphaned and set loose in a friendless and dangerous world. Sansa is reluctant to lie and to give up the idea that there is still beauty and love and hope in the world (which is one reason, I think, Alayne keeps harping about there being no more songs, and how the good old days are gone and so is Sansa; I think she's trying to convince herself). Arya does not want to give up her memories of being Arya Stark of Winterfell, of her family and friends, of home, of the person she was and, at heart, still wants to be. Unfortunately, both Sansa and Arya have come under the influence of morally dubious mentors who are trying to strip the girls of their core values, of their very identities as Stark daughters, of their original training to be good, kind and truthful individuals. While I admit that they should (and already have) learn to be less naive than their father about the realities of the world, it's heartbreaking to watch these kids be manipulated into amoral mindsets and deeds by mentors who want to transform them in ways that are more for the mentors' benefit than for the benefit of the young girls. Sansa and Arya needed the protection of powerful people to survive; and they are being sadly exploited (the only worse case is Jeyne Poole). Back to Ned for a moment - I want to clarify that I don't blame him at all for Arya being his favorite; I would imagine that all parents have favorites among their children. He sacrificed his honor, which to Ned was an almost sacred thing (and something he was perfectly wiling to die for), to save Sansa's life; which says a lot about Ned as a man who loved all his children. I just get the feeling that he understood Arya better than he ever did Sansa - because Arya was a living echo of Lyanna and Brandon, the siblings that Ned had loved and lost too early. Sansa was a lot more like Ned than either of them realized; Sansa having Ned's naivete, idealism, and tendencies towards patience and caution. (perhaps Ned gravitated towards Arya because of the likeness to Lyanna and Brandon; Ned seems to have admired them more than he ever admired himself) I think he loved Sansa, was very proud of her beauty and considerable charm, and was willing to leave her education in the hands of his wife and the septa - which was the traditional role of fathers and daughters (particularly when the fathers had male heirs to educate) - and not take too close a look in what that education entailed. Ned was a man who could allow and admire differences in people and traditions; hence the acceptance and love for these very different daughters of his.

If there was one flaw in Ned's parenting of Sansa (I tend to think that Arya and Lyanna were both incredibly spoilt) was that he basically took for granted that she would never rebel, or question his orders, so that whilst he took the time to explain to Arya that KL was a very dangerous place, he didn't bother to tell Sansa that Joffrey was a wicked nasty boy and so was Cersei (and the rest of the Lannister family), thus leading to Sansa's scurrying off to Cersei...

It's sort of like that prodigal son story, which is by the way, a story I have always hated as an example of bad parenting and a severe lack of justice.

[Raksha the Demon]

Yes but you must ask yourself what kind of idiot would want power more than children and sex. Hence the tendency to speculate that Queen Elizabeth was frigid...

I think Elizabeth Tudor's decision to turn her maidenhood/marriageability into a prize on the political market was made out of political skill - she could continue to advance England's interests by negotiating her own price and shuffling alliances - and her own personal history. Elizabeth grew up watching her father, who was all-powerful in her world, make a mockery and a horror out of marriage - the man went through four wives during her childhood, and that's not including her own mother, who his courts named as an incestuous adulteress and executed (which reduced the child Elizabeth to bastardy and very likely an uncertain reputation at court). She would have been aware of Jane Seymour dying to provide her father, and England, with a male heir, and then the humiliation of another stepmother, Anne of Cleves (who was kind to all of Henry's children) and her being put aside and sent away from court because she did not please Elizabeth's father. Then Catherine Howard, the young kinswoman of Elizabeth's mother, became her stepmother, seemed to delight her father, only to be accused of adultery and, like Elizabeth's mother, executed. The last stepmother, Katherine Parr, narrowly avoided arrest and probable execution. I could definitely see the young Elizabeth growing up feeling nervous about actually being married. I don't think she was frigid; she seems to have enjoyed flirting with men, and it's possible that she had sex with at least Robert Dudley; but I don't think that Elizabeth really wanted to give up any autonomy, or subject herself to the marital authority of any man.

[Raksha the Demon]

If there was one flaw in Ned's parenting of Sansa (I tend to think that Arya and Lyanna were both incredibly spoilt) was that he basically took for granted that she would never rebel, or question his orders, so that whilst he took the time to explain to Arya that KL was a very dangerous place, he didn't bother to tell Sansa that Joffrey was a wicked nasty boy and so was Cersei (and the rest of the Lannister family), thus leading to Sansa's scurrying off to Cersei... It's sort of like that prodigal son story, which is by the way, a story I have always hated as an example of bad parenting and a severe lack of justice.

Exactly! Ned was a very compassionate, indulgent, and broad-minded parent, but he was not necessarily a careful one, particularly with his daughters. I think he dismissed Sansa as his adorable pretty little girl, who was such a good girl, so well-mannered, who would never do anything wrong. But he did not know her extremely well. I cannot fathom why he did not, during the several weeks after Lady's death, try to have a talk with Sansa about the importance of always being truthful, and the dangers that awaited them in King's Landing. Ned observed that Sansa was troubled and unhappy during that time, and decided not to trouble her further by infringing on her distress. I think Ned saw a side of his older daughter that puzzled him, that he did not know how to deal with, and backed off because it was easier. He also felt some guilt for Lady's death himself, and considerable disappointment with Robert; and on the whole it was easier to give Sansa her space and presume she would recover than to confront her on her behavior, because that would have forced Ned to think more about the possibility that his beloved Robert was morally compromised.

(actually, Ned should have sent both his daughters back to Winterfell with Lady's body; and told Robert that their mother needed them and he'd send for them in a year or so, which would have given them all more time. Of course, that could have led to an even worse fate for Sansa and Arya, Ned dying for his honor in King's Landing, everything going ahead as it has, except for Sansa and Arya being in Winterfell when Theon captures the place - Theon would have married Sansa, and then Ramsey would have killed Theon and married Sansa, and done Gods-know-what with Arya).

[bgona]

I think Elizabeth Tudor's decision to turn her maidenhood/marriageability into a prize on the political market was made out of political skill - she could continue to advance England's interests by negotiating her own price and shuffling alliances - and her own personal history. Elizabeth grew up watching her father, who was all-powerful in her world, make a mockery and a horror out of marriage - the man went through four wives during her childhood, and that's not including her own mother, who his courts named as an incestuous adulteress and executed (which reduced the child Elizabeth to bastardy and very likely an uncertain reputation at court). She would have been aware of Jane Seymour dying to provide her father, and England, with a male heir, and then the humiliation of another stepmother, Anne of Cleves (who was kind to all of Henry's children) and her being put aside and sent away from court because she did not please Elizabeth's father. Then Catherine Howard, the young kinswoman of Elizabeth's mother, became her stepmother, seemed to delight her father, only to be accused of adultery and, like Elizabeth's mother, executed. The last stepmother, Katherine Parr, narrowly avoided arrest and probable execution. I could definitely see the young Elizabeth growing up feeling nervous about actually being married. I don't think she was frigid; she seems to have enjoyed flirting with men, and it's possible that she had sex with at least Robert Dudley; but I don't think that Elizabeth really wanted to give up any autonomy, or subject herself to the marital authority of any man.

Totally out of contest and with no really good aknowledge of English History, but I thought that Queen Elizabeth had different lovers (one maybe Drake, IIRC, but I can be completely wrong). I always thought that she was sterile.

[bgona]

I agree with your ideas about Ned acting as Sansa´s father. He didn´t expect so it was easy to him to not tell her nothing.

I believe that Sansa was the one that he less understood of all his children. With the boys he was able to find a way of communicate, and with Arya (the more boyish of the two girls). But with Sansa he is lost. And maybe it is also due to the fact that he´s still treating her as a child and not as a teenager.

(Yes, I´m back! Finally I will have time enough to make the reread and read by my self all your thoughts and I´m sure good opinions!).

[brashcandy]

Exactly! Ned was a very compassionate, indulgent, and broad-minded parent, but he was not necessarily a careful one, particularly with his daughters. I think he dismissed Sansa as his adorable pretty little girl, who was such a good girl, so well-mannered, who would never do anything wrong. But he did not know her extremely well. I cannot fathom why he did not, during the several weeks after Lady's death, try to have a talk with Sansa about the importance of always being truthful, and the dangers that awaited them in King's Landing. Ned observed that Sansa was troubled and unhappy during that time, and decided not to trouble her further by infringing on her distress. I think Ned saw a side of his older daughter that puzzled him, that he did not know how to deal with, and backed off because it was easier. He also felt some guilt for Lady's death himself, and considerable disappointment with Robert; and on the whole it was easier to give Sansa her space and presume she would recover than to confront her on her behavior, because that would have forced Ned to think more about the possibility that his beloved Robert was morally compromised.

It's crazy to think that it was actually Sandor who ended up picking up Ned's slack in this regard, isn't it?

Btw, in thinking about Lyanna Stark, I've always felt like she embodied the qualities of both Sansa and Arya - that wildness of spirit in Arya, yes, but also the capacity to be moved by sentimental songs, and to have perhaps decided to run off with Rhaegar Targaryen, which seems like something Sansa would do - chucking it all away for love. (at least the old Sansa)

[Grail King]

welcome back!

[bgona]

It's crazy to think that it was actually Sandor who ended up picking up Ned's slack in this regard, isn't it? Btw, in thinking about Lyanna Stark, I've always felt like she embodied the qualities of both Sansa and Arya - that wildness of spirit in Arya, yes, but also the capacity to be moved by sentimental songs, and to have perhaps decided to run off with Rhaegar Targaryen, which seems like something Sansa would do - chucking it all away for love. (at least the old Sansa)

It is a constant that Arya and Sansa are two sides of a same coin, and maybe it is true that both can be reunite in Lyanna. But I don´t know why (maybe what Bran saw of a girl with a sword fighting a boy and wining him) that Lyanna was more as Arya. Maybe also due to the references as both (Arya and Lyanna) of having the wolf inside them.

A question: at which age Lyanna died?

Another one: how old are the children to be give a name? Cause always we are talking that Sansa has 11 years at the beginning but I think that she must have 13 (if they did as the wildings of given a name to a child after 2 years old already).

[Grail King]

It is a constant that Arya and Sansa are two sides of a same coin, and maybe it is true that both can be reunite in Lyanna. But I don´t know why (maybe what Bran saw of a girl with a sword fighting a boy and wining him) that Lyanna was more as Arya. Maybe also due to the references as both (Arya and Lyanna) of having the wolf inside them. A question: at which age Lyanna died? Another one: how old are the children to be give a name? Cause always we are talking that Sansa has 11 years at the beginning but I think that she must have 13 (if they did as the wildings of given a name to a child after 2 years old already).

Born In 268AL, Died

In 284AL, at Tower of Joy

So she was 16 at her death, I think baby naming after age two is a wildling custom.

[Maroucia]

(actually, Ned should have sent both his daughters back to Winterfell with Lady's body; and told Robert that their mother needed them and he'd send for them in a year or so, which would have given them all more time. Of course, that could have led to an even worse fate for Sansa and Arya, Ned dying for his honor in King's Landing, everything going ahead as it has, except for Sansa and Arya being in Winterfell when Theon captures the place - Theon would have married Sansa, and then Ramsey would have killed Theon and married Sansa, and done Gods-know-what with Arya).

That would have been horrible!!! :stillsick: :bawl:

It's crazy to think that it was actually Sandor who ended up picking up Ned's slack in this regard, isn't it?

Definitely one of the ironies of life…

Given how Ned seemed to dislike Sandor(and for good reasons, if you think about it), he certainly would have never guessed that the infamously violent and brutish Hound would end up being to one trying to help Sansa in KL.

If ever Sansa and Sandor reunite and ….hum… get closer :leer: … Well, I’m going to be strangely sad that Ned is not alive (not that I’m happy he died, but the whole story really started because of his death, so it would be a little absurd for me to complain about it). I would have loved to see his reaction when learning about his daughter’s preferences in men… :lol: hehehe! I would have paid to see that!

[Kittykatknits]

Great post, Lyanna. Last year when I was still a relative newbie on the board, I made a thread called Westerosi Wonder Women which was about exploring just how women are beginning to assume the reins of power in Westerosi society, with many of the patriarchs dying out and women no longer feeling content to wilt away their potential in loveless/politically convenient marriages.

Thanks for bringing up this thread, I really enjoyed reading it. The theme of women's (changing) roles is one of my favorite in the series. ASOIAF is not primarily a feminist work but there is so much content in it that lends itself to discussion on women.

:P Yes, and we should be thankful that she listed Mycah's killer as "the Hound" and not as "Sandor Clegane" !

I took that as another way of distinguishing between the Hound as persona and Sandor as the man. If I recall correctly, she did finally take him off in AFFC right?

Anyways, back to Myranda, Sansa is now of an age with Daenerys of AGOT, which was when she was married off to Drogo and started getting sexually active. It will be interesting to compare their two storylines since I always felt Dany was much too young to have the sort of experiences she did. At least if we assume the author treats Sansa and Dany somewhat the same, it will definitely mean that Sansa is now clearly within the adult sphere when it comes to sex and interacting with men as a woman, not a child. It seems Myranda may inadvertently help Littlefinger in his quest for Sansa to seduce Harry the Heir by providing the needed knowledge to Sansa. Sansa has already found strength in her Stark identity, now she needs to learn the ropes of being a fierce northern woman and she's good to go. I guess it depends if he'd be ok with his wife wearing the proverbial "trousers" in their marriage. ;) Considering he's now serving tables, at least he could be useful around the house? :)

We saw Daenerys coming to accept her sexuality and finding pleasure in the act, but is this what will happen with Sansa?

I was worried Sansa would be some sort of holy virgin Queen, which is an extension of the damsel in distress trope, in many ways. And that Good girls should be chaste, faithful, true and all that bollocks. That was before Dany met Daario and Asha was introduced though. As of ACOK, we only really had Cersei as an "out" sexually active woman who chose her own partner, and that was definitely a Bad Thing ™. As of ADWD, it really feels we have a Wonder Woman scenario with Arianne, Asha, Dany, Val, Myranda et all redefining what's Right when it comes to love and sex for the women of Westeros. I'm hoping Sansa can join them and not end up some sort of semi-Septa.

Sansa is now older than Dany was at the start of the story as well, Dany was 13 while Sansa is now 14. Dany was forced in to marriage and sex but has taken control of her sexuality, as we saw later in her relationship with Drago and then with Daario. Sansa has been forced in to marriage but is still a virgin. I hope she will get her education and use that knowledge to chart her own path when it comes to sex. Dany had the opposite as her first sexual partner was forced upon her.

@Lyanna Stark - I really love your thoughts on women in the North and what that may mean for Sansa. She has been learning, growing, observing for a while. I'm hoping that she will start taking action based upon all that. As for Sansa wearing the trousers, I think Sandor would mostly be OK with it. He makes several comments on the nature of power (sharp steel an strong arms rule this world) but I never took that as how he feels about women and their roles. Rather, compare his relationship to Sansa with others in KL. He treats her as an equal and sees her as an individual than just about everyone else she comes across, including Tyrion and Dontos.

I think its funny how so many discount Aegon as he was "introduced late" to the series yet many are ready and able to embrace Willas...a character who has never been "seen" and so far is just....spoken of. In that regard, Willas holds even less value than Aegon. We've seen Aegon, interacted with him....Willas is just hearsay. He is a complete nonfactor with me.

This is a great point. I agree about him being a non-factor. He's another in a list of suitors that want her for her claim.

[brashcandy]

I would have loved to see his reaction when learning about his daughter’s preferences in men… :lol: hehehe! I would have paid to see that!

This is relevant, I swear. :)

[Kittykatknits]

One of the reasons that I find Sansa to be such a great character, is that GRRM created her to be a little as a white sheet, the whitest of the white sheets, the purest of them all. Every line that he drew on that sheet has been way more apparent given the purity of the material, every detail pops out much more on such a white background… I know it’s a weird analogy, but that’s the way I have always seen it. Sansa’s evolution may have been slower then the one of some other characters, but it’s been constant and she has never stopped learning and changing. It's also has been one of the most dramatic. And I’m sure we’re still just in the beginning of it. Edited to correct a s**t load of stupid mistakes. :blushing:

Sansa's character has been developed in such a way that there are so many options on where she may end up going. Arya is relatively straight forward in comparison. She's learning the skills of being an assassin, Bran is becoming a tree, and Jaime is going to kill his sister and then probably die. Sansa is unique though. We don't know who she will marry or even if, we only assume she will take down LF although it does seem likely, we don't know if she will ever go back to WF, many wonder if she is the younger and more beautiful one in Cersei's prophecy, we see her sexuality develop, and her political skills are growing. Sansa may have started as a blank slate but she's been fleshed out in many different ways. She can go anywhere in this story, there are so many directions that Sansa can choose to take. I enjoy speculation about her future, Martin is obviously playing the long game with her and it's been fascinating to watch.

:lol: I know there are Sansa "The Virgin Queen" advocates out there, but I just hope and pray that this isn't where GRRM will have her storyline end up. From the very beginning, Sansa has wanted children and a family, and I'd really like to see her enjoy this part of life.

I agree. I know that she wants children and a family but it's possible that Martin might take her the Dany route - her dragons and people are her children.

Now that I say that, I'm really worried that it may happen.

Ahhh...... if only. :drool: Why am I so skeptical about GRRM *ever* writing a truly loving, passionate sex scene* though.... :P * Ok, so Asha's scene with 'the Maid' dude, came close but no cigar (because I had no real emotional attachment to either character).

Jon's kiss wasn't to horrible either. The guy just can not do sex. I'm not looking for a harlequin romance here by any means but Martin really could use a boot camp session at Harlequin Sex Scenes for Dummies.

Well Jaime banging away with Cersei in the temple.....??????? OK it was only loving and passionate from his side :( but he honestly does love her..... even if it is creepy....as she's his twin..... *sigh*

Yeah, I understand why people read this as one of the more squicky sex scenes in the book. But, I always read it at more of a symbolic level rather than Jaime was horny and needed to get with his sister for some relief. Before he lost his hand, Jaime had two things- he was a sword and he had his sister. So, he lost his sword hand and wanted to die but Brienne gave him reasons to live. So, he reconnects with one of the elements he needed to keep living, surrounded by both death and blood to symbolize rebirth. It's just me then?

[Elba the Intoner]

This thread is moving along so quickly but based on Lummel's interest in post #337, and inspired by Queen of Winter's posts on mythology, here is some explanation of the bibilical figures of Lilith and Jezebel that I got from a discussion yesterday. I should qualify it though that the materials I have were put together by a woman who is an ordained Rabbi and she is the one who led the discussion.

Lilith -

Lilith especially seems relevant to the discussion of the virgin queen idea in particular. From jewishvirtuallibrary.org, Lilith is a female demon assigned a central position in Jewish demonology, but also appears in the Sumerian Gilgamesh epic and in Babylonian demonology as well. She was considered a part of the mazikim, or harmful spirits which have various roles. One of them, Ardat-Lilith, is to prey on males, while others were considered to prey on women in childbirth and their children. In Scripture, there is only one reference to Lilith, in Isaiah 34:14, as being among the beasts of prey and spirits that will lay waste to the land on the day of vengeance.

The legend of Lilith appears in it's most complete form in a text from the 8th - 10th centuries called The Alphabet of Ben Sira. It sets out to explain the widespread custom by that time of creating amulets against Lilith. In this text Lilith is the "first Eve" who was created at the same time as Adam from the same earth. Because of this she asserted to Adam that she was equal with him and when she refused to submit to him she fled the Garden of Eden.

Alphabet of Ben Sira, 23a-b:

According to myth and legend, Lilith was the first woman, created before Eve. She was Adam's absolute equal. In the Garden of Eden, long before the eating of the apple, the Holy One created the first human beings - a man named Adam, and a woman named Lilith. Lilith said, "We are equal because we are created from the same earth."

On Adam's request, the Almighty sent forth three angels after her and the angels threatened her saying that if she did not return 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused saying that she was created expressly to harm newborns but she had to swear that whenever she saw the images of those angels in an amulet she would lose her power over the infant. So here we see how the legend of the Adam's wife who preceded the creation of Eve merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in children.

From these traditions, the image of Lilith became fixed in the demonology of the Kabbalah where she has one of two primary roles, the strangler of children and the seducer of men. In the Zohar and other sources, Lilith is referred to as the harlot, the wicked, the false and the black. It became very common to protect women who were giving birth from the power of Lilith by affixing amulets over the bed and four walls of the room. The Alphabet of Ben Sira explains that the amulet should contain not only the names of the three angels who sought her out but their form as well.

(The Alphabet of Ben Sira is one of the earliest and most sophisticated of Hebrew stories written in the Middle Ages.)

In modern times, feminists have reconfigured the Lilith myth claiming that it reveals male anxiety about women who cannot be kept under patriarchal control. In feminist versions of the creation story, Lilith demands equality with Adam. Her expulsion from the Garden of Eden indicates not that she is evil, but the intolerance of male entities, Adam and God, who insist on defining and controlling women.

Jezebel - (from jewishvirtuallibrary.org)

Jezebel was born about the end for the first decade of the ninth century and killed in the insurrection of Jehu in 841 B.C.E. King Ahab arranged for the marriage between himself and Jezebel as it sealed a mutually advantageous alliance between Israel and the Tyrian Empire. (I Kings 16:31) She was a worshipper of the Tyrian Baal religion. Jezebel became an enemy of the prophet Elijah and in the stories about Elijah she is described as the prototype enemy of the god of Israel and his prophets. "She is depicted as a zealot for the deities of her homeland, who slaughtered the prophets of YHWH (I Kings 18:4) and supported the prophets of Baal and Asherah (I Kings 18:19). She is also a vigorous character with a strong will who was also literate (I Kings 21:8). Jezebel was considered to have instigated the judicial murder of Naboth, a man who defied her husband Ahab, (I Kings 21) and the story depicts Ahab as a weakling dominated by his wife. Jezebel is considered to be the instigator of the sins of her husband, "But there was none like unto Ahab, which did sell himself to work of wickedness in the sight of the Lord, whom Jezebel his wife stirred up." (I Kings 22:25)

During the insurrection of Jehu, after Jehu murdered her son, Jezebel adorned herself queen, perhaps as a gesture of defiance to Jehu who ordered her to be thrown out a window.

Modern feminist interpretation of Jezebel from "Listen to Her voice: Women of the Hebrew Bible", by Miki Raver -

Jezebel is mistakenly remembered as a harlot because she painted her face before going to her doom. Her final act was to ring her eyes with kohl and adorn her hair. She prepared to look her best, as any royal person would before an encounter with the public. The ancient female religion for which Jezebel stood was accompanied by an autonomy for woman and considered an offense to Yahwism. In the Goddess religion, priestesses were not under the control of men, kinship was traced matrilineally, and proud sexual priestesses owned property, had legal rights, and were free to relate with many men.

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I found that Lilith in particular has some meaning for a discussion of the virgin queen idea. The mythology surrounding her being a destroyer of newborns reminds me of Lysa in many ways, with her struggle for bearing a live child.

Jezebel is not as relevant to the story of the virgin queen per se, but it very much has to do with the history of a powerful queen (she is viewed as the power behind her husband's rule) trying to subvert patriarchal restrictions and how her name is perceived later on because of it.

ETA It's also interesting to note that the story of the creation of Adam and Eve that we all know relates to the idea of a virgin queen. Eve was specifically created for Adam and from him so that he would not be alone. The inherent meaning of this is that a man was meant to have a woman by his side. So, obviously any woman who does not want to be with a man must be abhorrent in some way.

[Fragile Bird]

Well, I don't disagree that there are cultural differences between the north and the south (and then again with dorne) but...the Mormonts are particular even in the North, as you say by necessity, and in the south most of the noble women we see are associated with a fairly sophisticated courtly life which you don't get in the North, they are not necessarily a typical bunch either. The Ned is indulgent to Arya in the North but The Evenstar is also indulgent to his daughter Brienne in the south too. OK Alys Karstark rides (and I was glad of her presence in the story) but I wouldn't personally assume that she was doing more than any other noble woman in her (admittedly unusual) situation might have down when faced with an unacceptable greedy uncle marriage. The glimpses we get of Lady Smallwood and Genna Lannister suggest that capable women are not unknown down south.

I haven't seen a virgin queen suggestion for Sansa's future, although before Dany's miscarriage in ADWD it was a future possibility for her. Just to pick up from her Majesty Queen Cersei's words on the subject surely we can all appreciate the power in the idea of someone choosing virginity and thus rejecting something that most of us find, er...ahem... :blush:... It wasn't unknown to find virgin Kings either (back in the day) like Edward the Confessor and Richard II and if you want to stretch things then you've got Artemis/Diana the virgin huntress. But I think a virgin queen might be a hard sell even for GRRM to his readers and of course because of the pomegranate don't we know that Sansa is Persephone ;)

Hard to say because we have seen so few 'average' Southeron noble women (lady smallwood, genna lannister, Lady wainwood, the Red Spider in The Sworn Sword), by contrast in the north we get Lady Dustin, Three Manderley women (although briefly) three Mormont Women, Alys Karstark, the Stark girls and their aunt. Not that I'm complaining, but considering the population of the North we get to enjoy a richer picture of northern noble women than southerners and that could be skewing our ideas.

Sexiness or otherwise apart, family is very dramatic though. I really appreciate Catelyn, the ominous sense of foreboding that you get from her POV particularly as the war continues is fantastic in my opinion, although I notice not quite to everyone's taste.

I don't get the impression that you necessarily get to choose your role in the game of thrones, you know, like Shakespeare almost said some women are born great, some achieve greatness and other women have greatness thrust uponthem.

I was just being lazy because the quote function is not working well. Not only should I have said understatement is a tool you use well, but I enjoy a succinct comment where others might indulge in overly descibing a situation. I especially enjoy a neatly turned quote. Now, Lummel, dry your tears, please. ^_^