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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

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'From pawn to player rereading sansa':

Personally I thin Sansa is doomed to always be a pawn, that being the symbolism of Lady's death. Unless someone can suggests another meaning behind her death?

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Personally I thin Sansa is doomed to always be a pawn, that being the symbolism of Lady's death. Unless someone can suggests another meaning behind her death?

I don't think that Sansa is doomed to be always a pawn. She shows quite a lot of skills that is needed to be a player. Plus the place she already is basically is a valid reason why she won't stay as a pawn. The Eyrie has not been affected by war, the bannermen seem to remember Ned Stark and even where on the verge of rebellion just to only join Robb's war against the Lannisters.

Sansa in the vale + learning the game + banner men who are very pro-stark = ingredients for madness of potential.

As for the death of Lady. Honestly I think that lady's death basically says that Sansa's idea of a lady is dead. Because how gloomy it sounds, Sansa kinda died at the end of AGOT. Her believes, ideals etc. dead when Ned's head was chopped off. She was treated as if she where a mere ghost in ACOK. So actually Sansa Stark kinda died.

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@ Thaurg

One interpretation is that she will cease to be a Lady, perhaps staying Alayne Stone forever.

Another is that she will get a replacement creature. Very possibly one that flies due to the huge

amounts of foreshadowing regarding Sansa and Birds and general flying things. Although I am not sure how Fandom would cope with Sansa as a Dragon Rider.

It may also signify that rather than Warg animals, Sansa's ability may relate to an empathatic link to people due to several instances in the books where she seems to sense other people very clearly or their emotions.

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Personally I thin Sansa is doomed to always be a pawn, that being the symbolism of Lady's death. Unless someone can suggests another meaning behind her death?

The meaning behind Lady's death is that Sansa is the least like the other Starks, though as we did the reread of her POV's it became clear that Sansa is probably the most like Ned of all the Stark kids. Also. Lady's death makes way for her replacement, as foreshadowed by Robert saying to Ned that he should "get her a dog, she'll be the happier for it." The dog is Sandor of course. Also, when Ned wants to break off Sansa's engagement with Joff he says that he'll make her a new match wit someone who is brave, strong and true (can't remember the exact quote atm), which again is a reference to Sandor.

Also, adreamer just mentioned that Sansa seems to be the one character who has not come into contact at all with magic:

I believe that Sansa being kept away from magic is important and she has some special role to play in this respect.

I agree with this and this is also what Lady's death represents as Sansa can never warg into her. Sansa has had to rely on her own abilities without any type of magic to help her, and that has become her greatest strength. For one thing, it has made her very perceptive. She has learned how to read the true nature of a person very well by the end of AFFC. Also, while I think that Sansa may warg a bird eventually, as the bird and flying imagery have been so strong in her chapters, even if she doesn't, she has developed the ability to empathize with people, especially those who are down and out, and she feels their pain. This may be the only remnant left of her warging ability but that doesn't mean it's of no use. A good leader needs these qualities if they are to rule competently, otherwise you get another Mad King Aerys. Moreover, this compassion is what draws people to her and makes people want to help her without realizing it. She has developed many strong qualities through her experiences, without the use of magic or warging into Lady, and once she starts putting this into play on her own she could be unstoppable.

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The meaning behind Lady's death is that Sansa is the least like the other Starks, though as we did the reread of her POV's it became clear that Sansa is probably the most like Ned of all the Stark kids. Also. Lady's death makes way for her replacement, as foreshadowed by Robert saying to Ned that he should "get her a dog, she'll be the happier for it." The dog is Sandor of course. Also, when Ned wants to break off Sansa's engagement with Joff he says that he'll make her a new match wit someone who is brave, strong and true (can't remember the exact quote atm), which again is a reference to Sandor.

Also, adreamer just mentioned that Sansa seems to be the one character who has not come into contact at all with magic:

I believe that Sansa being kept away from magic is important and she has some special role to play in this respect.

I agree with this and this is also what Lady's death represents as Sansa can never warg into her. Sansa has had to rely on her own abilities without any type of magic to help her, and that has become her greatest strength. For one thing, it has made her very perceptive. She has learned how to read the true nature of a person very well by the end of AFFC. Also, while I think that Sansa may warg a bird eventually, as the bird and flying imagery have been so strong in her chapters, even if she doesn't, she has developed the ability to empathize with people, especially those who are down and out, and she feels their pain. This may be the only remnant left of her warging ability but that doesn't mean it's of no use. A good leader needs these qualities if they are to rule competently, otherwise you get another Mad King Aerys. Moreover, this compassion is what draws people to her and makes people want to help her without realizing it. She has developed many strong qualities through her experiences, without the use of magic or warging into Lady, and once she starts putting this into play on her own she could be unstoppable.

I sincerely hope that this is not true. I still want Sansa to warg little birds and have her own little spy network that Varys would be extremely jealous of.

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I sincerely hope that this is not true. I still want Sansa to warg little birds and have her own little spy network that Varys would be extremely jealous of.

Actually, QueenSansa I want Sansa to be able to warg birds too. Certainly the huge amount of bird and flying references does suggest that she will eventually warg some flying animal. What I meant by her not warging Lady is simply that that is now impossible since Lady was killed and any advantage that would have given her to survive or develop has been taken away from her so she has had to learn and grow on her own. It may be that her ability to warg anything was killed too when Lady was but even so, her warging has been transformed into empathic abilities with other people so it is still important.

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Actually, QueenSansa I want Sansa to be able to warg birds too. Certainly the huge amount of bird and flying references does suggest that she will eventually warg some flying animal. What I meant by her not warging Lady is simply that that is now impossible since Lady was killed and any advantage that would have given her to survive or develop has been taken away from her so she has had to learn and grow on her own. It may be that her ability to warg anything was killed too when Lady was but even so, her warging has been transformed into empathic abilities with other people so it is still important.

I know you actually want Sansa to warg, but for second I was just scared that GRRM wouldn't do it that's all :crying: :frown5:

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@QueenSansaStark - yeah you never know with him. :dunno: However, it's interesting that you brought up Varys because another clue to Sansa warging birds comes from Varys himself. He calls the children he uses in his spy network Little Birds, and Sansa's nickname is Little Bird! That is more than a coincidence. So, while there are little children out there symbolically representing little birds, Sansa will use real little birds to get her information! That has got to happen.

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Personally I thin Sansa is doomed to always be a pawn, that being the symbolism of Lady's death. Unless someone can suggests another meaning behind her death?

It also symbolizes how the power of the Old Gods wanes South of the Neck and it also foreshadows and shows the contrast between Arya and Sansa. Aryas wolf, which is named after a queen lives, Sansa is now in an environment with no middle ground and settling for second can mean death.

My thought on Sandor is that if he does leave the Quiet Isle the Elder Brother would probaly accompany him to vouch for his innocence. Luckily for him he does have multiple and reputable witnesses who can say he was not responsible for Saltpans. Irregardless it does make him a poor choice for a covert mission in the Vale. Maybe he will go to Bravos to find Ayra if they find out she might be there, which is possible. So he might be with her sister when they reunite.

IMO Jamie, Brienne and Pod if he lives will go look for Sansa. There are a few Winterfell men with the Brotherhood maybe one of them goes as well. Jamie and her never really interacted in the books that I can remember. Sansa was more or less fixiated on her Prince, Joffrey. He was gone by the time the veil was lifted from her eyes. I don't think she will want to like him.

The symbol of the Vale is a falcon. That might be nice touch for her if she stays in the Vale. Falcons are not little birds however.

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It also symbolizes how the power of the Old Gods wanes South of the Neck and it also foreshadows and shows the contrast between Arya and Sansa. Aryas wolf, which is named after a queen lives, Sansa is now in an environment with no middle ground and settling for second can mean death.

My thought on Sandor is that if he does leave the Quiet Isle the Elder Brother would probaly accompany him to vouch for his innocence. Luckily for him he does have multiple and reputable witnesses who can say he was not responsible for Saltpans. Irregardless it does make him a poor choice for a covert mission in the Vale. Maybe he will go to Bravos to find Ayra if they find out she might be there, which is possible. So he might be with her sister when they reunite.

IMO Jamie, Brienne and Pod if he lives will go look for Sansa. There are a few Winterfell men with the Brotherhood maybe one of them goes as well. Jamie and her never really interacted in the books that I can remember. Sansa was more or less fixiated on her Prince, Joffrey. He was gone by the time the veil was lifted from her eyes. I don't think she will want to like him.

The symbol of the Vale is a falcon. That might be nice touch for her if she stays in the Vale. Falcons are not little birds however.

Sansa may be referred to a little bird occasionally, but let's not forget that Sansa is a she-wolf at first.

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ACOK afterthoughts

Sansa III (The "beating" chapter)

I think everything has been said about Sansa, Sandor, Dontos, Tyrion, Lancel, and even Sandor's cloak.

I just wanted to add I love this thought from Sansa :

"Sleep a bit, child. When you wake, all this will seem a bad dream."

No it won't, you stupid man, Sansa thought, but she drank the dreamwine anyway, and slept.

It sounds so much like something Arya could have said. I just love it ! :lol:

Sansa IV (The "rooftop" chapter)

Riot memories

They had hemmed her in and thrown filth at her and tried to pull her off her horse, and would have done worse if the Hound had not cut his way to her side.
She remembered the way they had howled, the feel of blood running down her cheek from where the stone had struck her, and the garlic stink on the breath of the man who had tried to pull her from her horse. [...] When his hand fell away, another hand, stronger, shoved her back into her saddle.

Many posters seem to believe this is another example of Sansa's false memories, since it contradicts Sandor's line to Arya :

The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castel.
For my part, I always thought Sandor was exagerating. He was trying to tell Arya he was not the terrible monster she thought he was, and had saved Sansa quite heroically.

And "the day they almost pulled her off her horse, but not quite, but they were really trying you know" does not sound half as dangerous as "the day they pulled her off her horse".

Just my two cents ;)

Sandor's behaviour

I like this chapter because it is the only time where Sandor is completely and utterly a jerk to Sansa. The rest of the time, he certainly is rough-tongued, but otherwise quite nice (in his special "barking dog" way).

But this time, he is just being horrible, and doesn't even have the excuse of being drunk.

And he is such a hypocrite too !

Basically their dialogue is the following :

Sandor : "You were glad enough to see my face when the mob had you, though. Remember ?"

Sansa : "I... I should have come to you after. To... to thank you, for... for saving me... you were so brave."

[They continue their discussion and Sandor is being an utter jerk.]

Sansa : "Why are you always so hateful ? I was thanking you..."

Sandor : "Just as if I was one of those true knights you love so well, yes."

Come on, man, what kind of excuse is this? Do you really think only knights can receive thanks ?? :huh: And you were the one to bring the subject of the riot in the discussion : you were basically asking for her thanks !

"...but Ilyn Payne's blade went through his neck all the same, disn't it ? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders ?"

Soooo... nice, lovely Sandor ! :uhoh: The guy really knows how to put a girl at ease.

The "I'm honest. It's the world that's awful" is an awesome catchphrase, but totally false in this situation. Telling such things to a girl who has obviously been traumatized by her father's death and went into depression afterwards, that's not being honest, that's being cruel.

Bad, bad dog ! :angry2:

Sansa's reaction

Why are you always so hateful ? I was thanking you...

I love this line because it expresses the extent of Sansa's frustration :

  1. Her courtesy armor is not working here. It never worked that well on Sandor, but now it is not working at all. But it should have ! In KL, she is always lying to every one ("my brother's a traitor", "I looove Joffrey"...) This time, she is telling the truth : she is honestly grateful to him for saving her life. Why can't he see that ?
  2. She truly does not understand the man. Basically, she is saying : "I was being nice to you, thanking you, and even praising you, and you end up telling me horrible things about my father's death. What the hell is wrong with you ?" And him being one of the few people in KL she can rely on... she really is at a loss !

She is frustrated, and then she gets pissed off and fights back :

"Why are you always so hateful ?"
"Only cowards fight with fire."

"Lord Stannis is no coward."

"Aren't you afraid ? The gods might send you down to some terrible hell for all the evil you've done."
"You're awful."
Wow ! Sansa is finally dropping the courtesy armor, and it's awesome ! :laugh: (She reminds me of Arya in ASOS, when she too says to Sandor what she thinks of him.)

What is a bit sad though, is that he is not the worse person in KL, but the only one she can safely get angry at. (Although he totally deserved what he got !)

But even the fact that she gets angry at him shows that she trusts him. She is scared of him, yes, but she knows that he won't hurt her for being honest, even if he doesn't like what she says. That is the only positive thing I can find for Sandor in this chapter, but it may be the most important.

Sansa VI

Of late Ser Osmund had taken Sandor Clegane's place by Joffrey's side, and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster.
The first time I re-read this line, I thought : "Omg, is the Hound in disgrace ? :blink: is it because he dared say enough when they were beating Sansa ?" Then I remembered Tyrion saying this to Cercei :
"I need Balon Swann and the Hound to lead sorties, to make certain Stannis gets no toehold on our side of the Blackwater."

There is two things I can make out of it :

Firstly, the Hound is not in disgrace, he is only needed elsewhere. But what about how he feels about it ? From his point of view, his prestigious job has just been handed down to some upjumped sellsword nobody knows anything about... :angry:

"Even a dog gets tired of being kicked." I have always wondered about that line : it suggests he has been kicked quite a lot before he finally got tired. We know the last "kick" was Tyrion trying to send him back to the battle. What about the other kicks ? He never semed to me that he was particularly mistreated : he gets called "dog" a lot, but that does not seem to bother him much. What if he considered himself slighted because they gave his job to a Kettleblack ?

Secondly, Tyrion says he wants the Hound to lead sorties. We already knew he was a fearsome warrior, but now we learn that he can also lead men into battle. So he also has some leadership qualities.

From another Tyrion chapter :

"I've lost half my men. Horse as well. I'm not taking more into that fire."
It shows that, as a good leader, Sandor Clegane cares about his men. (Whereas his brother can kill them for snoring... quite the difference !)
He looked at the men and knew it would not do. Clegane's fear has shaken them. Without a leader, they would refuse as well, and Ser Mandon... a dangerous man, Jaime said, yes, but not a man other men would follow.
We see here that Sandor is more than a great fighter. He is, unlike Mandon Moore, "a man other men would follow". When he stops, they stop as well. A true leader.

I know I'm getting a bit off-topic with this (this is not a Sandor- or a Tyrion-reread) but I can't help but think those leadership qualities could be very useful, were he to one day marry some highborn northern lady... :leer:

Sansa VII (our absolute favourite !)

The white cloak

From what I have read, every one agrees that Sandor tore the white cloak from his shoulders because he felt digusted by it.

I only want to consolidate this with two other quotes :

"And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her."

Sandor - ASOS

"It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around."

Jaime - ASOS

I told you I would come back to that Sandor/Jaime parallel. ;)

Both are disgusted by their white cloak. Not by what they did while wearing it, but by what they did not do. They stood by while the mad king they served did horrible things : burning the Starks, savaging Queen Rhaelle, beating poor Little Bird. They both finally betrayed their oaths (Jaime by killing the King, Sandor by deserting) and the rest of the world holds it against them, but they have no remorse about it. What truly eats them is what they did (or did not) while they were serving those kings and respecting their oaths. Jaime has been traumatized by Aerys's Stark barbecue, and Sandor would have loved nothing as much as protecting Sansa. However they did nothing because of that bloody cloak.

Now, note that each man gets his "girl".

Brienne :

  • idealistic views on honor and chivalry
  • only one to know why Jaime killed Aerys
  • gets mocked by Jaime because of her strict honor
  • is what makes Jaime start becoming a "better man"
  • she is ugly and Jaime is handsome

Sansa :

  • idealistic views on honor and chivalry
  • only one to understand why Sandor fled the battlefield
  • gets teased by Sandor for her idealism
  • can find the man inside the Hound
  • she is very beautiful and Sandor is ugly

Also, both Jaime's and Sandor's "redemptive arcs" are linked to the Stark girls...

(There are many more similarities between Sandor and Jaime, but I won't get into them since they are not really related to Sansa.)

The Unkiss

And to finish, let's do a bit of crackpotting about the famous Kiss-That-Never-Happened !

What we know :

  • Sansa Stark is a warg
  • Sandor is (probably) Lady's replacement
  • Sandor did not kiss Sansa
  • Sandor (probably) wanted to kiss Sansa
  • Sandor did not think clearly (what with being drunk, and emotionnaly upside-down, and everything)
  • Sansa reached out for Sandor (with her hand)
  • Sansa stays quite a long time in bed after Sandor's departure

Do you remember how Bran first took Hodor's skin ?

"Be quiet!" Bran said in a shrill scared voice, reaching up uselessly for Hodor's leg as he crashed past, reaching, reaching.

So here's my personnal theory :

Sansa has finished her song and Sandor has taken the dagger away.

Now he is there, desperately wanting to kiss her but not daring because she is so afraid of him (but threatening her with a dagger was okay... this guy does have issues !), when she reaches for him with her hand ... and her mind.

Her hand finds his cheek, and her mind finds him too : not taking his skin, obviously, but connecting to him in some way... a warg-like telepathic connection, shall we say. So she is able, at this moment, to somehow see his thoughts. It must have been quite a mess, and scary. But here is a fleeting thought she can understand (or perhaps it is the less scary one) : he thinks of kissing her.

Then he gets up, the connection is broken, and he leaves. She stays in bed for a long time, wondering "what just happened to me ?" Remember, she is not Bran : she has never warged into Lady before, she does not know how it feels. So basically she saw/felt something that did not happened. How do you deal with it ? She deals with it by deciding that it did happen. So this is what she is doing in her bed during those "long moments after" : she is actually fabricating the Unkiss memory from this very vivid thought she caught in Sandor's mind.

And when she has convinced herself that he did kiss her, she gets up and takes his cloak.

There has been much discussing about how the Unkiss is going to be important for the rest of the story. What if it is not important because of the memory itself, but because it is Sansa's first warging experience ?

***end of ACOK afterthoughts***

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ACOK afterthoughts

Sansa III (The "beating" chapter)

I think everything has been said about Sansa, Sandor, Dontos, Tyrion, Lancel, and even Sandor's cloak.

I just wanted to add I love this thought from Sansa :

It sounds so much like something Arya could have said. I just love it ! :lol:

Sansa IV (The "rooftop" chapter)

Riot memories

Many posters seem to believe this is another example of Sansa's false memories, since it contradicts Sandor's line to Arya :

For my part, I always thought Sandor was exagerating. He was trying to tell Arya he was not the terrible monster she thought he was, and had saved Sansa quite heroically.

And "the day they almost pulled her off her horse, but not quite, but they were really trying you know" does not sound half as dangerous as "the day they pulled her off her horse".

Just my two cents ;)

Sandor's behaviour

I like this chapter because it is the only time where Sandor is completely and utterly a jerk to Sansa. The rest of the time, he certainly is rough-tongued, but otherwise quite nice (in his special "barking dog" way).

But this time, he is just being horrible, and doesn't even have the excuse of being drunk.

And he is such a hypocrite too !

Basically their dialogue is the following :

Come on, man, what kind of excuse is this? Do you really think only knights can receive thanks ?? :huh: And you were the one to bring the subject of the riot in the discussion : you were basically asking for her thanks !

Soooo... nice, lovely Sandor ! :uhoh: The guy really knows how to put a girl at ease.

The "I'm honest. It's the world that's awful" is an awesome catchphrase, but totally false in this situation. Telling such things to a girl who has obviously been traumatized by her father's death and went into depression afterwards, that's not being honest, that's being cruel.

Bad, bad dog ! :angry2:

Sansa's reaction

I love this line because it expresses the extent of Sansa's frustration :

  1. Her courtesy armor is not working here. It never worked that well on Sandor, but now it is not working at all. But it should have ! In KL, she is always lying to every one ("my brother's a traitor", "I looove Joffrey"...) This time, she is telling the truth : she is honestly grateful to him for saving her life. Why can't he see that ?
  2. She truly does not understand the man. Basically, she is saying : "I was being nice to you, thanking you, and even praising you, and you end up telling me horrible things about my father's death. What the hell is wrong with you ?" And him being one of the few people in KL she can rely on... she really is at a loss !

She is frustrated, and then she gets pissed off and fights back :

Wow ! Sansa is finally dropping the courtesy armor, and it's awesome ! :laugh: (She reminds me of Arya in ASOS, when she too says to Sandor what she thinks of him.)

What is a bit sad though, is that he is not the worse person in KL, but the only one she can safely get angry at. (Although he totally deserved what he got !)

But even the fact that she gets angry at him shows that she trusts him. She is scared of him, yes, but she knows that he won't hurt her for being honest, even if he doesn't like what she says. That is the only positive thing I can find for Sandor in this chapter, but it may be the most important.

Sansa VI

The first time I re-read this line, I thought : "Omg, is the Hound in disgrace ? :blink: is it because he dared say enough when they were beating Sansa ?" Then I remembered Tyrion saying this to Cercei :

There is two things I can make out of it :

Firstly, the Hound is not in disgrace, he is only needed elsewhere. But what about how he feels about it ? From his point of view, his prestigious job has just been handed down to some upjumped sellsword nobody knows anything about... :angry:

"Even a dog gets tired of being kicked." I have always wondered about that line : it suggests he has been kicked quite a lot before he finally got tired. We know the last "kick" was Tyrion trying to send him back to the battle. What about the other kicks ? He never semed to me that he was particularly mistreated : he gets called "dog" a lot, but that does not seem to bother him much. What if he considered himself slighted because they gave his job to a Kettleblack ?

Secondly, Tyrion says he wants the Hound to lead sorties. We already knew he was a fearsome warrior, but now we learn that he can also lead men into battle. So he also has some leadership qualities.

From another Tyrion chapter :

It shows that, as a good leader, Sandor Clegane cares about his men. (Whereas his brother can kill them for snoring... quite the difference !)

We see here that Sandor is more than a great fighter. He is, unlike Mandon Moore, "a man other men would follow". When he stops, they stop as well. A true leader.

I know I'm getting a bit off-topic with this (this is not a Sandor- or a Tyrion-reread) but I can't help but think those leadership qualities could be very useful, were he to one day marry some highborn northern lady... :leer:

Sansa VII (our absolute favourite !)

The white cloak

From what I have read, every one agrees that Sandor tore the white cloak from his shoulders because he felt digusted by it.

I only want to consolidate this with two other quotes :

I told you I would come back to that Sandor/Jaime parallel. ;)

Both are disgusted by their white cloak. Not by what they did while wearing it, but by what they did not do. They stood by while the mad king they served did horrible things : burning the Starks, savaging Queen Rhaelle, beating poor Little Bird. They both finally betrayed their oaths (Jaime by killing the King, Sandor by deserting) and the rest of the world holds it against them, but they have no remorse about it. What truly eats them is what they did (or did not) while they were serving those kings and respecting their oaths. Jaime has been traumatized by Aerys's Stark barbecue, and Sandor would have loved nothing as much as protecting Sansa. However they did nothing because of that bloody cloak.

Now, note that each man gets his "girl".

Brienne :

  • idealistic views on honor and chivalry
  • only one to know why Jaime killed Aerys
  • gets mocked by Jaime because of her strict honor
  • is what makes Jaime start becoming a "better man"
  • she is ugly and Jaime is handsome

Sansa :

  • idealistic views on honor and chivalry
  • only one to understand why Sandor fled the battlefield
  • gets teased by Sandor for her idealism
  • can find the man inside the Hound
  • she is very beautiful and Sandor is ugly

Also, both Jaime's and Sandor's "redemptive arcs" are linked to the Stark girls...

(There are many more similarities between Sandor and Jaime, but I won't get into them since they are not really related to Sansa.)

The Unkiss

And to finish, let's do a bit of crackpotting about the famous Kiss-That-Never-Happened !

What we know :

  • Sansa Stark is a warg
  • Sandor is (probably) Lady's replacement
  • Sandor did not kiss Sansa
  • Sandor (probably) wanted to kiss Sansa
  • Sandor did not think clearly (what with being drunk, and emotionnaly upside-down, and everything)
  • Sansa reached out for Sandor (with her hand)
  • Sansa stays quite a long time in bed after Sandor's departure

Do you remember how Bran first took Hodor's skin ?

So here's my personnal theory :

Sansa has finished her song and Sandor has taken the dagger away.

Now he is there, desperately wanting to kiss her but not daring because she is so afraid of him (but threatening her with a dagger was okay... this guy does have issues !), when she reaches for him with her hand ... and her mind.

Her hand finds his cheek, and her mind finds him too : not taking his skin, obviously, but connecting to him in some way... a warg-like telepathic connection, shall we say. So she is able, at this moment, to somehow see his thoughts. It must have been quite a mess, and scary. But here is a fleeting thought she can understand (or perhaps it is the less scary one) : he thinks of kissing her.

Then he gets up, the connection is broken, and he leaves. She stays in bed for a long time, wondering "what just happened to me ?" Remember, she is not Bran : she has never warged into Lady before, she does not know how it feels. So basically she saw/felt something that did not happened. How do you deal with it ? She deals with it by deciding that it did happen. So this is what she is doing in her bed during those "long moments after" : she is actually fabricating the Unkiss memory from this very vivid thought she caught in Sandor's mind.

And when she has convinced herself that he did kiss her, she gets up and takes his cloak.

There has been much discussing about how the Unkiss is going to be important for the rest of the story. What if it is not important because of the memory itself, but because it is Sansa's first warging experience ?

***end of ACOK afterthoughts***

Great post, you just made me almost just almost ship SanSan. That is impressive.

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Amazing analysis Queen of Spades! :bowdown:

Wow ! Sansa is finally dropping the courtesy armor, and it's awesome ! (She reminds me of Arya in ASOS, when she too says to Sandor what she thinks of him.)

What is a bit sad though, is that he is not the worse person in KL, but the only one she can safely get angry at. (Although he totally deserved what he got !)

But even the fact that she gets angry at him shows that she trusts him. She is scared of him, yes, but she knows that he won't hurt her for being honest, even if he doesn't like what she says. That is the only positive thing I can find for Sandor in this chapter, but it may be the most important.

Yes, as much as an arse he is here, it's clear that Sansa is honest with him and has a good rage, too. I think it comes through at times that Sansa and Arya are not so dissimilar after all and this is one of them. Same when Sansa tells Joffrey that maybe her brother will bring her his [Joffrey's] head instead.

The only other people Sansa is upfront with during her time in Kings Landing (post beatings) are the Tyrells during the "Bear and Maiden Fair" singalong, and she got stung by them later when they turned cold on her.

I love how he goes all "oh why don't you leave then" at the end of this conversation, although he's the one who keeps stalking her places and saying nasty things.

Regarding the warging theory, I had similar thoughts the other week after having reread some Bran chapters and Varamyr Sixskins prologue. If wargs are able to get into human's heads and shove their consciousness aside, there must be a stage before the "shoving" can even occur.

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...Her hand finds his cheek, and her mind finds him too : not taking his skin, obviously, but connecting to him in some way... a warg-like telepathic connection, shall we say. So she is able, at this moment, to somehow see his thoughts. It must have been quite a mess, and scary. But here is a fleeting thought she can understand (or perhaps it is the less scary one) : he thinks of kissing her...

That is a very interesting interpretation.

My only problem with accepting that wholeheartedly is that when we see Varamyr and Bran first attempting to warg a person the results are much more dramatic. OK Lyanna Stark suggests pre-shoving warging, but that implies a degree of subtly that one expects with conscious practise rather than an unconscious attempt.

On the otherhand Sandor, is drunk, frightened and very disturbed and I imagine his normal state of mind, although not Hodorific, probably isn't too healthy either so maybe if Sansa was unconsciously warging him that might have just had an extreme dampening and ultra calming effect on him and he might not have noticed how obtrusive her warg presence was?

Certainly something to add to the old dog as evidence of potential warging though.

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That is a very interesting interpretation.

My only problem with accepting that wholeheartedly is that when we see Varamyr and Bran first attempting to warg a person the results are much more dramatic. OK Lyanna Stark suggests pre-shoving warging, but that implies a degree of subtly that one expects with conscious practise rather than an unconscious attempt.

It might just be as simple as she's just not a strong or skilled enough warg to even reach the shoving stage. She'll have to make do with some weaksauce mindreading, or at least a capability to be well above average at interpreting people's emotions.

On the otherhand Sandor, is drunk, frightened and very disturbed and I imagine his normal state of mind, although not Hodorific, probably isn't too healthy either so maybe if Sansa was unconsciously warging him that might have just had an extreme dampening and ultra calming effect on him and he might not have noticed how obtrusive her warg presence was?

You mean a bit like a supernatural Cesar Milan? ;)

But yeah, Queen of Spades gives a new interpretation of the unKiss that is really something to consider.

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Great post, you just made me almost just almost ship SanSan. That is impressive.

Amazing analysis Queen of Spades! :bowdown:

@ Queen of spades

Looooved your post!!!

Sandor! :wub:

Thanks you all ! :)

My only problem with accepting that wholeheartedly is that when we see Varamyr and Bran first attempting to warg a person the results are much more dramatic.

The thing is, Bran and Varamyr had a lot more practice. It is almost a reflex for them to take over the body of the "warged".

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Well Lyanna, my problem is that your weaksauce pre-warging looks like an incredibly useful skill and terribly subtle, more so than Bran's 'lets brain bludgeon Hodor out the way'. As theories go I find it mild to average crazy (that means I am favourably impressed Queen of Spades :)), definitely worth considering.

ETA

Queen of Spades said

The thing is, Bran and Varamyr had a lot more practice. It is almost a reflex for them to take over the body of the "warged".

Eventually Bran and Hodor have practise. The first time that Bran tries to warg Hodor or Varamyr tries to warg Thistle it goes wrong, over the top dramatically wrong with Thistle. That is precisely why I find it difficult to imagine that Sansa who has very little warg practise is able to achieve such a subtle result. But worth considering in any case.

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Well Lyanna, my problem is that your weaksauce pre-warging looks like an incredibly useful skill and terribly subtle, more so than Bran's 'lets brain bludgeon Hodor out the way'. As theories go I find it mild to average crazy (that means I am favourably impressed Queen of Spades :)), definitely worth considering.

ETA

Queen of Spades said

Eventually Bran and Hodor have practise. The first time that Bran tries to warg Hodor or Varamyr tries to warg Thistle it goes wrong, over the top dramatically wrong with Thistle. That is precisely why I find it difficult to imagine that Sansa who has very little warg practise is able to achieve such a subtle result. But worth considering in any case.

It is described something like "as if by instinct" so it's not something she consciously does. After all, it was a fairly extreme situation, and Sansa had also had a lot of wine to drink so she was probably more inebriated than almost ever before, meaning any conscious mental barriers would be down.

I doubt it's something she could repeat on command, either, so it would be of very limited usefulness in day to day life. If she *did* manage to do some mild unconscious warging, then that could explain why she was so incredibly sure she understood why he deserted, plus it could also explain a possible origin of the unKiss. Or why he calmed down, even.

EDIT: I wonder too if there isn't a difference between reaching out and a hostile takeover, which is basically what Bran and Varamyr did, or tried to do. Sort of like the difference between patting a horse and attempting to ride it wherever you want.

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It is described something like "as if by instinct" so it's not something she consciously does. After all, it was a fairly extreme situation, and Sansa had also had a lot of wine to drink so she was probably more inebriated than almost ever before, meaning any conscious mental barriers would be down.

I doubt it's something she could repeat on command, either, so it would be of very limited usefulness in day to day life. If she *did* manage to do some mild unconscious warging, then that could explain why she was so incredibly sure she understood why he deserted, plus it could also explain a possible origin of the unKiss. Or why he calmed down, even.

EDIT: I wonder too if there isn't a difference between reaching out and a hostile takeover, which is basically what Bran and Varamyr did, or tried to do. Sort of like the difference between patting a horse and attempting to ride it wherever you want.

If Sansa did indeed read Sandor’s thoughts in a telepathic/warging kind of way, I also agree that it’s probably not something that she could do on command to whomever and whenever she would want.

Sandor is not anybody though, he shares a special connection with her through his status as Lady’s replacement, and they also did build a weird, but honest and true relationship over the time. Also, Sandor was in a particular state when this all took place; he just came back from an extremely traumatic battle, was drunk and just attacked the girl that he truly wanted to protect. The song that Sansa offered him just sealed everything; he was probably going through some sort of trance at that moment. That state of mind might have been the perfect setting for telepathic/warging.

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