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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa


brashcandy

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Jeyne Poole was already passed around the whorehouse circuit and then subsequently married off to Roose and she is the same age as Sansa. Everyone accepted her as Arya (who is 2 yrs younger than Sansa) and had no real problems with her being married to Roose.

Tssk, tssk !

Jeyne married Ramsay. Roose married Fat Walda.

By the way, how old is Walda ? She must be quite young because during the Red Weding, she says something along the lines of "He chose me over Fair Walda. Now she is still a maid and she's nineteen now, poor girl !" So I'd say she's around sixteen. And still her and Leech seem to go along quite well :)

(Seven hells, Maroucia was faster than me !)

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Tssk, tssk !

Jeyne married Ramsay. Roose married Fat Walda.

By the way, how old is Walda ? She must be quite young because during the Red Weding, she says something along the lines of "He chose me over Fair Walda. Now she is still a maid and she's nineteen now, poor girl !" So I'd say she's around sixteen. And still her and Leech seem to go along quite well :)

(Seven hells, Maroucia was faster than me !)

Ha! :lol:

I loooove Roose and fat Walda as a couple!!! They're so cute together!!!

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I thought Brienne was about 18/19, which is a lot younger than Jaime (who is in his 30s). However there is a big difference between 18 and 30 together and 13 and 28 together. Saying that GRRM has stated that he had initially meant the timeline to take longer, so Sansa was meant to be descending the Eyrie aged 18 not 13 (14 as Alayne). The age thing bothers me a lot and I think it is one of the few areas where GRRM has mucked up.

NB: On a side note. I was meant to have the foreshadowing from AFFC up tonight, but yet again ( :rolleyes: )life got in the way this week. Sorry....should be up on Saturday.....(dinner party tomorrow night as well).

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In that case, Brienne would find it safe to fantasise about Jaime as well, since he's nowhere near her once she gets out of Kings Landing, but she certainly doesn't seem to see fantasising about him safe at all but quite unsettling, and she hurries to try and think about safe, unattainable Renly. :)

I've also argued before that the reason why there is such a difference between the safe/unsafe relationships and how they are setup is not only that the "target" is unattainable (although of course they are, due to both Renly and Loras being gay) but also because of the platonic unattainable crush vs physical and more intimate.

Whatever else, Jaime and Brienne share some extremely physical and intimate moments, with many of them not being particularly positive either, but it binds them together and adds another element of earthy closeness and a very physical and human dimension to their interactions. It's very far from the idealised love Brienne holds for Renly. Jaime she's seen dirty and disgusting, she's been tied up together with him with his rotting hand between them, etc etc.

Sansa and Sandor share similar intimate but not exactly positive moments too, starting with him telling her about his scars, then with the riot, him saving her from falling off the battlements, drying her bloodied lip and of course the pinnacle of all at the Battle of the Blackwater, with blood, fire and suffering everywhere.

EDIT: And for all the people going "BUT OMG THE AGE DIFFERENCE!!" of Sansa and Sandor, go check the official timeline and the age difference between Jaime and Brienne, for the sake of science. ;)

EDIT2: because of really embarrassing spelling mistake

Was it embarrassing enough to move me out of the hall of fame for misspelled words? :)

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yea yea yea....roose,....ramsey...one of them!!! oooof.....

anyways....yea poor Brienne got to literally clean up Jaime's shit! When he was delirious and kept messing on himself. Talk about an intimate moment!

She also bathed him and dressed him. She knows that man's body well by now...and sadly not in the fun way

I actually did respect the fact that Sandor recognized she was still too young and never acted on anything.....thank GODS he never exposed his veiny purple bulbous "mast" like Tyrion did! :ack:

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yea yea yea....roose,....ramsey...one of them!!! oooof.....

anyways....yea poor Brienne got to literally clean up Jaime's shit! When he was delirious and kept messing on himself. Talk about an intimate moment!

She also bathed him and dressed him. She knows that man's body well by now...and sadly not in the fun way

I actually did respect the fact that Sandor recognized she was still too young and never acted on anything.....thank GODS he never exposed his veiny purple bulbous "mast" like Tyrion did! :ack:

:ack: :ack: Why did you put that image into my head??

I hope Sandor is better looking than Tyrion down there…

Well most of all, I would hope that GRRM doesn’t give us too much detail…

Edited to add a most needed: EEEWWWWW!!!!! :ack: :ack:

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Speaking of age differences, I cannot help but think of one of my favourite novels of all-time....Jane Eyre. Jane is 18 and Rochester is something like....35? And a very interesting match they make.....

I'm sure it has been explored previously somewhere (I did read about the Radcliffe and Austen connection, I did not see anything about Jane Eyre on this particular set of threads), but Sansa obviously has much in common with Jane Eyre....or at least there are some similar elements to the stories. Probably just coincidence, but I thought I would mention some of them nonetheless....

~ Jane Eyre is an orphan, and mistreated by her supposed family, beaten (iirc) by her male cousin

~ She goes from one fairly isolated situation into another

~ As a young girl at the harsh boarding school, she finds solace in her one friend, and in her faith

~ Jane works as a governess, caring for a bastard child (later she become a teacher, and throughout the story she constantly expresses her care and concern for children, thinking that they deserve love).

~ She has a strange, terrifying, and yet intimate experience with Rochester, involving saving him from a fire . Afterward, she is confused, and yet oddly hopeful (until hopes are dashed by appearance of Blanche Ingram).

~ Rochester rides a temperamental black stallion. When the horse spooks and slips on the ice and causes him to fall off, initially he asks her to bring the horse to him. She cannot, as the horse is nervously prancing, and she is afraid of the stallion. (This symbolizes that she is as-yet still uncertain/unable to 'handle' such a display of raw masculinity).

~ Jane experiences a short-lived happiness, wearing her beautiful wedding dress only for a short time before her hopes are dashed by the appearance of Mr. Mason (reminding me of Sansa's happiness at her new dress when she thinks she is going to marry Willas turning into horror at the knowledge she will be marrying Tyrion instead).

~ Jane leaves, wanders the moors, is found by the Rivers siblings, and takes on a new name and 'career'.

~ In the meantime, Rochester has another traumatic encounter with fire, when Thornfield Hall burns, and his wife commits suicide. Rochester himself is maimed during this fire, and blinded.

~ Jane is almost telepathically connected to Rochester, especially during times of great distress. He cries out to her in a prayer one night, and she 'hears' him crying across the moors "Jane, Jane, Jane!", which influences her decision to go back and find him.

~ Upon Jane's return to him, Rochster worries that she will find him even uglier than before. But now, he is in many ways 'gentled' (some would say 'un-manned'), while Jane is grown in confidence and independence, and she is able to 'handle' him.

I grant that some of the above connections might be a stretch because Jane Eyre is an example of bildungsroman, like most of the Stark children's stories. Also, many other stories have similar occurences (but then, Jane Eyre inspired many stories too...)

Of course, I'm not saying that Sansa = Jane Eyre or that Sandor = Mr. Rochester, not perfectly at least. There is even a bit of Littlefinger in Rochester (his insistence in playing games with her) at times, although I am loathe to admit it. :P

Also, as much as I *want* Sansa and Sandor to have a "Jane! Jane! Jane!" moment......this is GRRM we are talking about, so I am skeptical he would ever be so (deliciously) out-right romantic. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless, I can't help but notice that at the Quiet Isle (where Sandor is presumed to be, with a fairly bad leg wound that has given him a limp, for now at least), they were attempting to geld Stranger, Sandor's black stallion. I remember this part vividly. In fact, it has been like five years since I've actually read aFFC all the way through, but I remember thinking.....NO, don't geld him! :laugh: Since I always found Stranger's temperamentality quite endearing (it was like an extension of the Hound's rage perhaps?). But it also got me thinking about the symbolism of the horse/stallion as sort of intense un-tameable masculinity. :leer:

So....did they actually end up gelding Stranger? Does their success/failure signify something in relation to Sandor? I'm not saying they've castrated the man himself, but I've also noticed in literature that leg wounds (especially to the thigh) can symbolize a de-masculinization.

I've not really reached a conclusion here......forgive me for being a bit jumbled. This is more of just a cluster of somewhat really thoughts really....

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Valkyrja I also love Jane Eyre. I thought I might have posted about some similarities between the two stories but it must have been somewhere else. Anyway, to add to your list, bird imagery pops up all the time in Sansa's story. In the very beginning of Jane Eyre when she is hiding from her abusive cousin, she becomes absorbed in a book that is all about birds! :drunk:

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Valkyrja I also love Jane Eyre. I thought I might have posted about some similarities between the two stories but it must have been somewhere else. Anyway, to add to your list, bird imagery pops up all the time in Sansa's story. In the very beginning of Jane Eyre when she is hiding from her abusive cousin, she becomes absorbed in a book that is all about birds! :drunk:

I remember reading about that before. I even went on youtube to watch a few videos taken from the old tv movie that was based on the book because of that.

Timothy Dalton was hot.

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I think willowbark meant "a safe man for her to think of" not because he is not dangerous, but because he is far away. ;) She certainly never fantasized about him while he was near.

What Willowbark claimed was that Sansa is using Sandor as a reference in helping her to figure out the kind of relationship she wants in a future mate. My contention is that Sansa doesn't think of Sandor on a conscious level as a romantic suitor, which forces us to look further into the nature of their relationship if it's not simply a matter of what the person learnt from the other.Perhaps the only time she really thinks of him consciously in a romantic situation is when Mya Stone asks her whether she knows what goes on in the marriage bed and she thinks of him kissing her; but even then, it's not in the sense of feeling active desire for him (readers can assume she does, but Sansa never admits to it herself). She "remembers" him kissing her, and therefore factors him into that situation, but she's still resisting seeing him as a possible future lover, choosing to essentially deny her budding emotions by telling herself that thoughts of him belong to Sansa and not to Alayne. I can agree with Willowbark that Sandor has guided Sansa by showing her the value of truth and sincerity in relationships, but Sansa's thoughts of the Hound have become a lot more intimate and personal since they've been apart. And I wouldn't agree that she only starts fantasising about him because he's gone. I think if he had remained in KL we would have seen Sansa experiencing those same kinds of thoughts and feelings towards him that we later learn about in ASOS and AFFC. The Blackwater battle was a huge turning point in their relationship; they really do seem to have gotten underneath each other's skin almost, and as Lyanna Stark mentioned upthread, the mixing of the blood, vomit and tears - seeing each other at the most vulnerable and sensitive state - worked to create an intense bond that persists over time and space.

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I thought Brienne was about 18/19, which is a lot younger than Jaime (who is in his 30s). However there is a big difference between 18 and 30 together and 13 and 28 together. Saying that GRRM has stated that he had initially meant the timeline to take longer, so Sansa was meant to be descending the Eyrie aged 18 not 13 (14 as Alayne). The age thing bothers me a lot and I think it is one of the few areas where GRRM has mucked up.

I agree with you. :) Overall the young ages of the characters are such as to almost prevent suspension of disbelief. The chief offenders being Dany, Robb and Jon up until now perhaps, but Arya and Sansa too. Even Bran is the same.

I've just made the mental adjustment that "being 14-15 in Westeros is different than being 14-15 in Real life", which is a bit of a weaksauce excuse even if the wonky seasons are taken into account, but it's almost the only way the ages become believeable.

The reason I brought the age difference up is that according to the Wiki, the age difference between Brienne/Jaime and Sansa/Sandor is exactly the same. It surprised me a lot since I assumed Brienne was older.

Speaking of age differences, I cannot help but think of one of my favourite novels of all-time....Jane Eyre. Jane is 18 and Rochester is something like....35? And a very interesting match they make.....

I had totally forgotten that, and I adore Jane Eyre forever and ever.

Also, as much as I *want* Sansa and Sandor to have a "Jane! Jane! Jane!" moment......this is GRRM we are talking about, so I am skeptical he would ever be so (deliciously) out-right romantic.

I was actually surprised there was any romance at all, since if we place ASOIAF among epic fantasy, romance is normally contained within "and they married and lived happily ever after", Arwen and Aragorn style. Apart from that, we're normally presented with it almost as an Act of God or something that happens off screen (so it doesn't taint the manly heroic fighting efforts and quests, etc).

The first time I read the novels, it took me almost to the end of ASOS before I even started grasping the Sansa Sandor thing since it was so far out of the left field. Jaime/Brienne was a little bit more obvious, but even that took me quite a while to really appreciate. I think it's because it's quite subtly hinted at and isn't presented as idealistic, pretty or amazing but instead it's allowed to grow slowly and almost organically, while romance in Hollywood movies and romance novels are normally about as subtle as a big club to the head (with some exceptions of course, but you know, as a rule).

Nevertheless, I can't help but notice that at the Quiet Isle (where Sandor is presumed to be, with a fairly bad leg wound that has given him a limp, for now at least), they were attempting to geld Stranger, Sandor's black stallion. I remember this part vividly. In fact, it has been like five years since I've actually read aFFC all the way through, but I remember thinking.....NO, don't geld him! :laugh: Since I always found Stranger's temperamentality quite endearing (it was like an extension of the Hound's rage perhaps?). But it also got me thinking about the symbolism of the horse/stallion as sort of intense un-tameable masculinity. :leer:

So....did they actually end up gelding Stranger? Does their success/failure signify something in relation to Sandor? I'm not saying they've castrated the man himself, but I've also noticed in literature that leg wounds (especially to the thigh) can symbolize a de-masculinization.

From Brienne's chapter in AFFC, it certainly seems the unstated point the holy Brothers are making is that they are annoyed that they did not in fact manage to geld Stranger Driftwood (he bit a man's ear off and then nobody else wanted to try it) and his behaviour certainly seems to indicate he's still the same old bad tempered horse he always was.

I think there have been some theories knocking about that Sandor's leg wound basically "Lancelled" him, meaning he'll end up some fanatically religious Westeros version of the Unsullied, but that seems a bit crackpot, so for the moment I think we can probably assume that both him and the horse are mostly intact. Although perhaps he's gained more zen than Stranger seems to have judging by the horse's unruly behaviour. I certainly can't see the old Sandor agree to serve at tables, for instance. Which he does in the Brienne chapter.

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I would love to see Sansa as Lady, to Lord Tyrion, of Casterly Rock. Wouldn't that make Cersei just roll over in her grave.We all know Cersei is going to be strangled; Maggy the Frog says so.

A Stark in Casterly Rock. That would just make my day..even if it is only a dream...lol.

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In that case, Brienne would find it safe to fantasise about Jaime as well, since he's nowhere near her once she gets out of Kings Landing, but she certainly doesn't seem to see fantasising about him safe at all but quite unsettling, and she hurries to try and think about safe, unattainable Renly. :)

I've also argued before that the reason why there is such a difference between the safe/unsafe relationships and how they are setup is not only that the "target" is unattainable (although of course they are, due to both Renly and Loras being gay) but also because of the platonic unattainable crush vs physical and more intimate.

Whatever else, Jaime and Brienne share some extremely physical and intimate moments, with many of them not being particularly positive either, but it binds them together and adds another element of earthy closeness and a very physical and human dimension to their interactions. It's very far from the idealised love Brienne holds for Renly. Jaime she's seen dirty and disgusting, she's been tied up together with him with his rotting hand between them, etc etc.

Sansa and Sandor share similar intimate but not exactly positive moments too, starting with him telling her about his scars, then with the riot, him saving her from falling off the battlements, drying her bloodied lip and of course the pinnacle of all at the Battle of the Blackwater, with blood, fire and suffering everywhere.

EDIT: And for all the people going "BUT OMG THE AGE DIFFERENCE!!" of Sansa and Sandor, go check the official timeline and the age difference between Jaime and Brienne, for the sake of science. ;)

EDIT2: because of really embarrassing spelling mistake

As far as the age difference between Sansa and Sandor; it was huge when they last saw each other, Sansa being 12 and the Hound twice her age, she was emotionally and pretty much physically still a child and he was a grown man. In four years, when Sansa is 16, she will be far more mature in all respects. I'd be more comfortable, if Sansa is to eventually have a sexual relationship, that she be 17-19, but at the rate that she is maturing emotionally, I think she could handle a sexual relationship that is not with Littlefinger she personally wants. Sandor also strikes me as a man whose emotional growth was severely stunted; he seems like a very angry teenager when he's ranting and raving; and he's obviously not a man who has had an adult romantic relationship with any female. I mean really, there are two living individuals for whom Sandor has demonstrated any kind of affection - Stranger and Sansa. So the maturity gap between Sansa-in-the-Vale and Sandor may be shrinking.

Of course, if Sandor comes out of the Quiet Isle as a zen, asexual Septon without a drinking habit; then we'll know he's done a lot of therapy with the Elder Brother.

I do think it's rather tragic that at a time in her life, from age 11-14, when Sansa should be associating with boys and young men and growing gently and happily from child to teenager-anticipating-marriage (per the norms of Westerosi nobiity), she has been abused by her sociopathic betrothed, alternately protected and threatened by an angry alcoholic warrior, sexually threatened by a man she finds repulsive and whose family she hates, and then physically molested by a mentor who is posing as her father (having her sit on his lap while he demands kisses - gahhhhhh! :ack: ). It's sad, and abnormal even for Westeros. It's no wonder that Sansa fears the idea of marriage; it's possible that she may come to fear any sexual relationship, even a healthy one. Or she might want to, need to, dominate, in every/any sexual relationship she has in the future.

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~ Upon Jane's return to him, Rochster worries that she will find him even uglier than before. But now, he is in many ways 'gentled' (some would say 'un-manned'), while Jane is grown in confidence and independence, and she is able to 'handle' him.

That's another thing. Rochester is not particularly good looking but he's tall, dark and manly!

It's no wonder that Sansa fears the idea of marriage; it's possible that she may come to fear any sexual relationship, even a healthy one. Or she might want to, need to, dominate, in every/any sexual relationship she has in the future.

Sansa the dominatrix? Now I can't get the vision of Sansa in full dominatrix garb out of my head.
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I would love to see Sansa as Lady, to Lord Tyrion, of Casterly Rock. Wouldn't that make Cersei just roll over in her grave.We all know Cersei is going to be strangled; Maggy the Frog says so.

A Stark in Casterly Rock. That would just make my day..even if it is only a dream...lol.

I wonder what would make Cersei more unhappy regarding Sansa's eventual fate - a powerful queen loved and respected by her people, or a happy wife in a fulfilling relationship? Somehow I think if Sansa was to end up as the Lady of Casterly Rock, still married to Tyrion, that might inspire more pity than envy in Cersei.

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