From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[Aslerys]

Do you think that if Sansa manages to run away from the Vale she could ask Aegon for help?

Assuming that the situation in the North will not be solve yet it could be like " the enemies of my enemies are my friends" kind of thing.

Although I'm not sure if Aegon would help or if she would actually consider him a possible ally...

[Kittykatknits]

I rarely visit this board but ended up sucked in to another discussion a few days back and have been going through all the re-read threads. It's nice seeing many of my thoughts regargding Sansa reflected in many of these discussion posts. It's really added to my understanding of her as a character.

Martin did such a great job painting her as a youn, naive young girl in love with songs and handsome knights in the first book, I think many readers have not been able to get past this initial impression. I hope that your discussion here changes a lot of minds. You'll see me in here going forward.

I saw some recent discussion on Sansa's age and it seems most people believe that she is still 13. I was doing some research with the story timeline last week and I am almost positive that Sansa is 14 at this point in the story. If I had to guess an even more definite age, I'd say 14 years and 3 or 4 months but that's a bit more of a guess. Either way, reading her chapters in Feast, it felt very apparent to me that her childhood is over.

I would love to see Sansa as Lady, to Lord Tyrion, of Casterly Rock. Wouldn't that make Cersei just roll over in her grave.We all know Cersei is going to be strangled; Maggy the Frog says so.

A Stark in Casterly Rock. That would just make my day..even if it is only a dream...lol.

I have no idea what Martin will do with the marriage between the two of them although I think it will play out in some shape or form. However, I thought it was pretty clear in Sansa's discussion about CR with Tyrion that she had no desire to either live or visit there. She wants to go home to Winterfell. Sansa is also one of the most compassionate characters in the entire series. An ending like this, for vengeneance, just doesn't fit her personality or story very well. But, what I think should happen and what Martin does are two very different things.

One final comment about Sandor and purple heads. If you are a member of the LJ community, we had a recent discussion about this complete with pictures to help with analysis. I think you'll be happy with the results. :drool: :drool:

[Lyanna Stark]

Do you think that if Sansa manages to run away from the Vale she could ask Aegon for help?

Assuming that the situation in the North will not be solve yet it could be like " the enemies of my enemies are my friends" kind of thing.

Although I'm not sure if Aegon would help or if she would actually consider him a possible ally...

First and foremost it would be very difficult for Sansa to get from the Vale to the Stormlands. She'd have to travel down to Gulltown and then hire a ship, most likely, and then travel to the Stormlands past areas which are held by current king and the Lannister regime. In either case, she would be travelling through what is basically a war zone, and without a lot of support, this would be very difficult and risky to try, bordering on futile.

At the end of AFFC she also doesn't know that f!Aegon even exists. It remains to be seen i LF makes the same judgement as Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly, who seems to think f!Aegon is not really a huge threat.

Further, f!Aegon's closest advisor is Jon Connington and he fought on the opposite side of Robert Baratheon and Sansa's father Ned Stark in the battle for the Iron Throne. I think it's safe to say no Stark would come begging Jon Connington for aid. If you consider Sansa a Lannister due to her being married to Tyrion, that's equally bad since Tywin was behind the sack of Kings Landing and Elia and Rhaegar's dead children.

No, f!Aegon and Jon Connington are not likely to be friends of Sansa or any Starks.

[anousdeuxmaintenant]

I signed up here just to talk about what I thought the connection between Sandor and Sansa was. I'm sick in the head. I want it to happen but I think Sandor is only her lady replacement and I agree completely with the comment by the poster above. Her warging abilities are sorta sookie stackhouse blood bond. She knows peoples feelings or thoughts kinda. I can't articulate as well as above. I don't see romance at all at this point from Sansa. I think Sandor wanted to kiss her and that is why she has her memory of kiss. I commented about this on an earlier thread like an hour ago before I saw this. Actually I'll just copy paste it cuz I'm not sure teh other thread is active.

I think that Sansa's unkiss is her "seeing" it from Sandor. I think he wanted to kiss her. I don't think she warged him in the sense of being in his body, but I think that her warging may come out as a ability to know what people are thinking kinda thing. I can't articulate it how I have it in my head. In a GoT when ser illyn payne first shows up lady growls and it says Sansa puts her hand on ladys head and she quiets. In the bedroom scene Sansa puts her hand on Sandors face and he "quiets down" I don't think she likes him like that. I just don't see it. I think it is one directional. He likes her. The fantasizing about him in her marriage bed I see it differently. she is dreaming unsettling dreams no? She also dreams of the awful vision of joffrey choking to death, of the awful experience of being in bed with tyrion staring at her and then she thinks of Sandor asking for a song, like he did when he threw her onto the bed and asked for a song. all bad experiences no? her kiss keeps evolving. the next time it is "his cruel mouth" on hers. cruel mouth isn't a good thing. Now, I think that they have some sort of connection because he is associated with dogs and all the dog references and when she thinks of lady she always (?) thinks of or sees sandor. I think he is the replacement protector. Now if he is the gravedigger than I hope he has calmed the eff down and then maybe develope feelings but I feel like it will always be a one directional thing. Who knows, maybe sandor only really wanted to put a leg up

and one more thing. that damn littlefinger. I think sansa may loose herself for a bit and she kinda likes the pervy kisses. she sure doesn't try that hard to get him off her. and the first time he kisses her inside the castle she says "for half a heartbeat she yielded to his kiss" pg1104 of paperback asos.

and this reminded me of sansa waking up "Sansa awoke all at once, every nerve atingle." this is the same time frame of Sandor getting injured/"dying"

then "when sansa opened her eyes again she was on her knees. She did not remember falling". again I think this is her connection to her "warging" feelings or things happeniong to her "lady/hound" as a protector. she isn't warging body style but i believe definately some sort of sookie stackhouse mind reading *sort of* thing

[Valkyrja]

The possibility that Sandor is 'only' her replacement for Lady has indeed occurred to me, and you state the reasons well. However, I just can't help but hope it is a bit more than that. :)

But, honestly, as much as I LOVE Sandor, I am less concerned with who Sansa will end up with than I am about who she *won't* end up with......aka the perverse Littlefinger. :ack:

[anousdeuxmaintenant]

I totally hope it is Sandor too. And if she does *any* thing with littlefinger I will be sooooo pissed. yuck.

I feel so sorry for Sansa. She really is just all alone with nothing. But I also think that she needs this time to grow. And I hope she doesn't end up married-again-and that she gets to choose. I hope that her staying married to Tyrion is like a safe guard or chastity belt. No one can touch her so long as she has it on. Except littlefinger. Cuz he's cray cray. I hope she doesn't have to settle for Tyrion in the long haul. And I hope one of the times she touches petyr she "sees" his true intentions. And more importantly she realizes it for what it is and doesn't brush it aside.

[1234567]

Looking at the comparisons to Jane Eyre, I thought that there is also a slight (and I mean very slight) comparison that can be made between Lysa and her treatment of Marillion and Mary Queen of Scots and David Rizzio. Indeed Mary Q of S could also be compared to Cersei, as she was a disaster at playing politics, unlike Elizabeth the 1st, whose childhood experiences of being declared illigitimate, threatened with death, possibly being molested by her Step Mother's pervey husband etc bear quite strong similarities to Sansa's situation.

I doubt she will end up as the Virgin Queen (as GRRM has said he uses examples from history but that it isn't a direct copy of historical events). Certainly Sansa's experiences in KL, are like Elizabeth's experiences. Similarly Mary Q of S, had a perfect childhood and grew up expecting to be Queen of Scotland and France one day. She made awful mistakes, possibly murdered her husband and got in to difficulties with the religious authorities (the High Septon actually sounds a bit like John Knox).

Interestingly Elizabeth did make some bad political mistakes in her early teens, and like Sansa, seems to be learning from them.

[Aslerys]

First and foremost it would be very difficult for Sansa to get from the Vale to the Stormlands. She'd have to travel down to Gulltown and then hire a ship, most likely, and then travel to the Stormlands past areas which are held by current king and the Lannister regime. In either case, she would be travelling through what is basically a war zone, and without a lot of support, this would be very difficult and risky to try, bordering on futile.

At the end of AFFC she also doesn't know that f!Aegon even exists. It remains to be seen i LF makes the same judgement as Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly, who seems to think f!Aegon is not really a huge threat.

Further, f!Aegon's closest advisor is Jon Connington and he fought on the opposite side of Robert Baratheon and Sansa's father Ned Stark in the battle for the Iron Throne. I think it's safe to say no Stark would come begging Jon Connington for aid. If you consider Sansa a Lannister due to her being married to Tyrion, that's equally bad since Tywin was behind the sack of Kings Landing and Elia and Rhaegar's dead children.

No, f!Aegon and Jon Connington are not likely to be friends of Sansa or any Starks.

I know what you mean and I agree that Aegon would probably see her as the daughter and wife of traitors unless he falls madly in love with her or something. I just wanted to explore all possibilities, he isn't going to stay in the Stormlands forever (assuming that the invasion goes well) so there is a little more chance for them to meet.

[Queen of Spades]

Totally liked the parallel with Jane Eyre :) (and I had completely forgotten about the horse and the fire episodes... I need to read this book again !)

[Valkyrja]

I *really* don't want Sansa to end up with (F)Aegon. I dunno why, but something just does NOT sit well with me about him as a character or that scenario....

Edited to say: And yes, Queen of Spades, one can never read Jane Eyre too often! :D

[Queen of Winter]

:ack: :ack: Why did you put that image into my head??

I hope Sandor is better looking than Tyrion down there…

Well most of all, I would hope that GRRM doesn’t give us too much detail…

Edited to add a most needed: EEEWWWWW!!!!! :ack: :ack:

Maroucia you crack me up! :laugh:

[Aslerys]

I don't want her to end up with Aegon too but it would be quite interesting if he falls in love with her and she uses him to gain a little more power at least until people find out he is fake, I just wanted to see Sansa play the game by her own terms and if she does it well she might be able to be in a stronger and better position when Aegon goes down (like Littlefinger did with the Lannisters).

The question is : Will she be able to play with an innocent person feellings for her own gain no matter the consequences or is she too much Stark for that?

Sometimes I just want her to be really bad ass but at the same time I don't want her to lose her honour and kindness lets hope she can do both :D

[Valkyrja]

It is indeed a fine line, isn't it?

I admit that I have no idea who she will end up with at this point.....and honestly, what matters to me most is that she keeps her identity/integrity in whatever situation she ends up in.....

Sort of like.....Jane Eyre. ;)

And speaking of Jane Eyre, I hope its not inappropriate for me to leave this here.... :D

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw0qe4nsEa1qj1zwso1_400.png

[PureGold]

I don't want her to end up with Aegon too but it would be quite interesting if he falls in love with her and she uses him to gain a little more power at least until people find out he is fake, I just wanted to see Sansa play the game by her own terms and if she does it well she might be able to be in a stronger and better position when Aegon goes down (like Littlefinger did with the Lannisters).

I'm going to be honest, Anything Taragaryen isn't terribly interesting to me (blashphemy I know) but is it definite he's a fake. Isn't the dragon supposed to have 3 heads or some such. Maybe Aegon will be in a position of power when all is said and done.

I think it could be interesting if Sansa is paired with someone where SHE is the cynical one in the relationship and the guy is the more romantic. Aegon's been training and fighting (but hasn't had to contend with the callousness that only the nobility can display) for years according to Connington but Sansa has been a prisoner of war since the end of GoT (she's experienced physical violence but not murder as of yet).

It would also continue GRRM's continued habit of having Sansa forge a relationship with just about EVERY powerful man in Westeros by actions, name or deed. Though if Aegon is a fake I wouldn't want Sansa involved because she really does have enough problems.

The question is : Will she be able to play with an innocent person feellings for her own gain no matter the consequences or is she too much Stark for that?

I still haven't decided. I think a lot depends on how things go with Lord Robin. Sansa doesn't enjoy caring for him and she seems to be conditioning herself into a "I have to look out for myself" mindset. Her constantly reminding herself that she's alone in the world and what not.

Sometimes I just want her to be really bad ass but at the same time I don't want her to lose her honour and kindness lets hope she can do both :D

I love that Sansa is so compassionate but I do worry about her fate. The North has washed their hands of her. It started with Robb and Cat, when Robb wanted to make sure she was disinherited because she was married to a Lannister. I can't be the only one that felt like they were throwing in the towel in terms of rescuing Sansa at that point.

Stannis sneeringly refers to Sansa as "Lady Lannister" when Jon Snow (JON of all people) says that she should be the next to inherit Winterfell.

The Manderly's need a Stark Heir and they decide to find Rickon. They don't seem to even consider Sansa an option. Her being wanted for Regicide could have something to do with it but The North is very much resentful of the Iron Throne these days so I don't see why that would hinder Sansa as an option.

The only person that seems to "care" for her (For Now) is Petyr. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't turn on Baelish for some time. Like towards the end of the series and in the mean time worked with him to advance their agendas.

I admit that I have no idea who she will end up with at this point.....and honestly, what matters to me most is that she keeps her identity/integrity in whatever situation she ends up in.....

So many potential interesting choices both character-wise and politically. Aegon, Sandor, Tyrion (unlikely but possible) and maybe it's just fan interest on my part but I wouldn't mind seeing her rule as Lady of High Garden if Margaery meets a bad end. Another one that might be interesting though I can't imagine how they would meet (and I'm not sure how old he is) but Trystane Martell. Though I think the Sand Snakes might freak her out.

Sansa really is a character that can play well off just about anybody.

[Megara]

I haven't read that "Jane Eyre" book (I think I'll read it, though, sounds like something I would like :3 ), but it just struck to me... what if GRRM, in his own twisted trolling way, is writing a "romantic 19th century novel" using Sansa's POV? If you look closely, using characters' POV allows Martin to change the "style" of the book: from action to mystery to epic battles, etc... so, why not some romance, Westeros style? I just recently read a quote from Martin and he said that, back in the 70s, he was considered the most romantic fantasy writer of all! It would be cool, really, if he managed to include the typical love story in a not-so-typical way in this series... and Sansa seems to be the most adequate character to do that...

[Queen of Spades]

I would love that ! :eek:

I want Sansa to marry the Hound in the end, but I always thought : "Hey, this is GRRM, it can never happen..."

[the Scorpion Knight]

I know what you mean and I agree that Aegon would probably see her as the daughter and wife of traitors unless he falls madly in love with her or something. I just wanted to explore all possibilities, he isn't going to stay in the Stormlands forever (assuming that the invasion goes well) so there is a little more chance for them to meet.

first aegon doesn't care about that (he isisted on the saving of tyrion after he told aegon who he is)

I think they'll meet sooner( why do i think LF actions invited the war to the vale) and sansa will be having a minor freakout meeting aegon

(the lad seems to develop a talent for seeing through people he saw right that harry strick would rather wait for hell to freeze over than fight and JonC didn't tell him that. and he is used to dyed hair)

[Megara]

... and now I can't stop imagining Aegon giving some tips on hair dyeing to Sansa xD

"GUUUUURL! You should, like, totally try this new 'ombre' coloring!!"

omg Dx

[kwvapor]

first aegon doesn't care about that (he isisted on the saving of tyrion after he told aegon who he is)

I think they'll meet sooner( why do i think LF actions invited the war to the vale) and sansa will be having a minor freakout meeting aegon

(the lad seems to develop a talent for seeing through people he saw right that harry strick would rather wait for hell to freeze over than fight and JonC didn't tell him that. and he is used to dyed hair)

If we compare Sansa and Aegon in this light, they both have the same talent to read people but as someone already said the Vale and Stormlands aren't exactly next door.

I recall some Golden Company soilders being randomly dropped off up and down the coast. Any of them nearby the Vale?

[the Scorpion Knight]

If we compare Sansa and Aegon in this light, they both have the same talent to read people but as someone already said the Vale and Stormlands aren't exactly next door.

I recall some Golden Company soilders being randomly dropped off up and down the coast. Any of them nearby the Vale?

but they are closer than people like and Lf behavior invited the war to the vale