From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa

[adreamer]

Well i spotted that there are a few other characters in the book that seems to be connected trough there names and these are - Tyrion-Tysha, Tyrion - Tywin, and Arys-Arianne. It looks like Sandor- Sansa is the strongest one since they share some weird intimate connection (not romantic, at least not yet).

And there is some parallel between Sandor-Sansa story and Luthien- Beren story from the Silmarillion - the parallel is not exactly strait, but it definitely exists. As it happens in Luthien -Beren story there is this quite big dog, named Huan who helps Luthien to escape and to find Beren and help them steal the silmaril. At the end he dies heroic dead. It seems to me that in our story the silamaril is Sansa and Martin combined the characters of Huan and Beren in one person - Sandor.

Now regarding the relationship between Sandor and Sansa and if it will become romantic at some point, I think that if you have a man and a woman sharing some strange intimate connection (which these two obviously share) and allow them to spend some time together it is pretty much inevitable that sooner or later they will develop some romantic feelings. As I see it you can avoid that two ways - eider one of them dies heroically saving the other or simply dies (might be Sandor, but might be Sansa as well, which I thing gives room for another story) or you simply do not meet them. There is another possibility as well - this is if one of your characters have some dark secret regarding the other (like Sandor taking part in Ned's beheading, which won't surprise me at all) - that would make the story much more ironic and Martin loves irony as it seems.........Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Lyanna Stark]

There is another possibility as well - this is if one of your characters have some dark secret regarding the other (like Sandor taking part in Ned's beheading, which won't surprise me at all) - that would make the story much more ironic and Martin loves irony as it seems.........Just my thoughts on the matter.

He doesn't. That's Littlefinger's doing via Joffrey. The "betrayal" or "dark secret" Sansa will need to figure out comes from Littlefinger.

In AGOT Sandor does help fight the northmen in the throne room though when the Gold Cloaks betray Ned Stark. He cuts one of them in half, I believe, but apart from that he has very likely no hand in planning anything (he's a bodyguard, not an advisor to Joffrey and why on earth would he want Ned Stark randomly killed?***).

This does mean however that Littlefinger was behind both the betrayal of Ned and very, very likely also his beheading (if we link up Tyrion's POV from ACOK with Cersei's from ADWD regarding the events surrounding Ned's beheading).

An interesting possibility is whether Sandor was around when Littlefinger brought this idea up with Joffrey though. If we assume that LF was the one to plant the idea in Joff's head, did LF have Joff alone, or did Joffrey have his bodyguard around? Sandor says something rather cryptic in ASOS in one of the Arya chapters where he thinks the Young Wolf needs him, which is a strange choice of words. Why would Robb need Sandor Clegane for anything? Obviously he thinks he has something of value, or that he can be of value in an important way. As far as I can tell, he's not around the Small Council meetings and would not have any particular super insight into Cersei's or Tyrion's minds, so what is her referring to here? If he was around when LF convinced Joff to have Ilyn Payne off Ned's head, he would be sitting on some important information indeed.

EDIT: *** I can only see one reason why he would somehow support Ned getting executed and that is from a comment made by Littlefinger to Ned when Ned sends out Beric Dondarrion after Gregor, that Sandor will not thank Ned for it, since Gregor was his to kill. But it seems a bit extreme of a reaction since it's hardly certain Beric will even kill Gregor (instead Gregor killed Beric twice). It could be possible that he knew about LF's and Joff's plotting though and said nothing to Cersei.

[1234567]

He did see LF put a knife to Ned's throat in the Throne Room and from the dialogue, it is clear that Ned thought that the Gold Cloaks were on his side and beytrayed him. If he knows that and ever comes into a position to tell Sansa.....well LF is toast.

[adreamer]

EDIT: *** I can only see one reason why he would somehow support Ned getting executed and that is from a comment made by Littlefinger to Ned when Ned sends out Beric Dondarrion after Gregor, that Sandor will not thank Ned for it, since Gregor was his to kill. But it seems a bit extreme of a reaction since it's hardly certain Beric will even kill Gregor (instead Gregor killed Beric twice). It could be possible that he knew about LF's and Joff's plotting though and said nothing to Cersei.

Exactly, but in the next Eddard chapter Robert is dying and quotes to Ned

“Ah, fuck you, Ned,” the king said hoarsely. “I killed the

bastard, didn’t I?” A lock of matted black hair fell across his

eyes as he glared up at Ned. “Ought to do the same for

you. Can’t leave a man to hunt in peace. Ser Robar found

me. Gregor’s head. Ugly thought. Never told the Hound. Let

Cersei surprise him.”

Now why would Robert care about the Hounds reaction. It doesn't make much sense. And we are twice pointed to some possible reaction from Sandor, but it seems that we never come to see it, or....

As the next Eddart chapter follows

The grey light of dawn was streaming through his

window when the thunder of hoofbeats awoke Eddard

Stark from his brief, exhausted sleep. He lifted his head

from the table to look down into the yard. Below, men in

mail and leather and crimson cloaks were making the

morning ring to the sound of swords, and riding down mock

warriors stuffed with straw. Ned watched Sandor Clegane

gallop across the hard-packed ground to drive an irontipped

lance through a dummy’s head. Canvas ripped and

straw exploded as Lannister guardsmen joked and cursed.

Sounds a bit like foreshadowing to me - might be wrong, but that's how i read it.

Then in ACOK we have Varis small riddle he gave to Tyrion, and the riddle speaks of sellsword and we never come to learn the exact answer, because Tyrion was too flattered by the suggestion that a very small man can cast a very large shadow.

Then Cersei on few occasions mentions that Sandor was like father to Joffrey or something to that extend and we really see his influence when he backups Sansa's nameday bed luck lie - Jof was not happy about it but he accept it.

So that's my crackpot - Sandor took part in Ned execution, convincing Jof to do it.

And the reason, I think you can find here

Where other men dream of love,

or wealth, or glory, this man Sandor Clegane dreamed of

slaying his own brother, a sin so terrible it makes me

shudder just to speak of it. Yet that was the bread that

nourished him, the fuel that kept his fires burning. Ignoble

as it was, the hope of seeing his brother’s blood upon his

blade was all this sad and angry creature lived for

I don't deny that LF also is in that.

[Queen of Spades]

Further, regarding Sansa as wife to Aegon, that very likely won't happen for a couple of reasons:

a. she is already married to Tyrion and he is absent

b. Sansa has no power to offer him as her family has been destroyed and the North is too far away to matter in the battle for Kings Landing

c. Arianne is moving towards Aegon's position and will most likely try and ally Dorne to him, possibly by marriage. Indicating that Arianne's and Jon Connington's POVs will be brought together in TWOW, possibly also with Cersei's if the move on Kings Landing and take it.

d. if we consider Sansa's future and who she will have around her as more or less a major plot line, GRRM has indicated that the major players have all been introduced quite early on. Aegon was not introduced until ADWD, Jaime and Sandor in AGOT and Brienne in ACOK.

a. Come on, do you really think that once Aegon is King, he can't make the High Septon break Sansa's marriage ?

b. The winter won't last forever, and the North represents half of Westeros. They would never accept to follow Sansa as Lady Lannister, but Aegon intends to fight the Lannisters...

c. Arianne represents a great possible alliance too. However, Dorne may be willing to join Aegon anyway. Or not. Aegon should definitely marry them both, that would secure the North and the South :D

d. Technically, Aegon was mentionned very early, even if all believed him to be dead ;)

I still want Sansa to end up with Sandor, though... but will we get what we want ?

[Lummel]

...c. Arianne represents a great possible alliance too. However, Dorne may be willing to join Aegon anyway. Or not. Aegon should definitely marry them both, that would secure the North and the South :D...

By that reasoning Aegon should also marry Margery and Myrcella to get Full House and secure the reach & westerlands too

[Queen of Spades]

Not Margaery, she is not "safe" and has been widowed to many times !

And Myrcella... she is not half as pretty as Arianne or Sansa, now with her great facial scar... :laugh:

And anyway, he is fighting the Tyrells and the Lannisters, not building alliances.

[Queen of Winter]

I can totally see Jaime as Aemon the Dragonknight (nice parallel with Naerys and Cersei!) and Brienne with Symeon Star-Eyes, but why Sandor as Serwyn? I feel like I am missing something I should remember! :) He killed a Medusa like monster behind a mirror shield I seem to remember, but I am coming up short with anything else.

As per the wiki: According to song, he once saved Princess Daeryssa from Giants. He slew the dragon Urrax by approaching the beast behind his shield so the dragon only saw its own reflection, Serwyn then speared Urrax through the eye. He was haunted by ghosts of all the knights he killed.

Giants...titans.....

Haunted by the ghosts of the men/knights he killed...

It very well could allude to Sandor. B)

I have more thoughts on this.....but I need to reflect on them and be will back...

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think Aegon being fake or real matters at this point. The power and forces behind Aegon is real, him and the GC have a plan and are really marching and conquering. Compare that to what people say about Dany having no plan, Stannis is at the wall concerned with the north and realm. Harry the Heir isn't going to claim the throne, since LF is for the current regime. Sansa may become the young girl in Cersei's prophecy.

In that mess, Sansa can meetup with all the above characters. She might have a meeting with Aegon too--some say Aegon will marry the princess of Dorne but I don't see a match there.

Anyway-just random thoughts really, building on what Scorpion wrote. :smoking:

The princess of dorne would bring Aegon quite a bit more at this point than Sansa would. The North has quite a few problems of its own and is not going to care about giving someone claiming to be Aegon an army.

Power lies where the people believe it lies, yep. But, I think that Aegon is Dany's mummers dragon. I don't like the idea of Sansa's future being tied to someone who may or may not be the real deal. It's also hard to get all that invested in someone who didn't even show up until book five.

Yeah, I see a lot of hate for him (Aegon). Recall how Sansa wants that perfect prince? Well, she looked everywhere and didn't find one but Aegon might be it. Varys and Jon Con and his guardians have been very protective of him and educating him every day on the things needed to rule/be King.

What if, Martin, gives Sansa this "Prince." He seems very mature, look at how he learned from Tyrion. (He didn't like it but he got the message and acted upon it) I think he has no bastards or lovers, all he is thinking about is conquest. We kind of touched on Sansa and Aegon both having an uncanny ability to read people.

A reversal of her song.

I don't think it'll end happily ever after but it will position her to be the young queen that takes everything from Cersei. Pawn to player---

There are many ways Sansa can go from Pawn to Player. I don't hate Aegon, just done care about him. We have had five books to learn about and become invested in many characters, he is not one of them.

When it comes to the perfect prince, Sansa has already had a perfect, golden prince. Where she is at right now, I think she would be very suspicious and disinclined to trust another perfect prince.

Aegon's goal is to retake the throne, if and when he marries it will be for political reasons only. Sansa is smart enough to realize that. It's another flavor of "they only want me for my claim". It is quite possible that the narrative willl have an ending like this for Sansa but it is not the one I want for her.

As for the young queen who takes everything fro Cersei, I'm not a huge fan of that prophecy. We didn't learn about it until book four and I felt like Martin created it to give readers a way to understand why he turned her in to such a cartoon villian so fast - remember before Feast there was supposed to be a five year gap. I love thinking about prophecy in this series but not this one.

[Kittykatknits]

I really can't give you a concrete answer other than they seem to have some funky hot chemistry. He is the opposite of her and what she "thinks" she wants and yet, at the same time, he is exactly what she wants. Yes, he is crude, uncouth, screwed up, etc etc etc...but his action have been some of the more honorable. Well, definitely when compared to the other knights in the books! I love Jaime but even Sandor has more morals than Jaime does.

I think Sandor imprinted on Sansa which is part of the chemistry between the two of them. She had her golden prince and her idealistic crush on Ser Loras but there was no basis for her affections. They looked a part. Sandor is different. He doesn't have the beautiful, princely look but he offers her something different. His imprinting gave her the foundation of what she now looks for in men which is why she compares all that come after to him. So, she wishes for ferocity in Dontos, sees the strength in Brune, call Tyrion a liar at one point, and makes use of Sandor's advice once again with LF by giving him what he wants. Whether she ends up with him or not, whoever she marries is going to be compared to him. And, probably, unfavorably.

And if it is not obvious yet- I hope she ends up with Sandor but I'm realistic enough to know that the odds of that are slim.

Exactly, but in the next Eddard chapter Robert is dying and quotes to Ned

Now why would Robert care about the Hounds reaction. It doesn't make much sense. And we are twice pointed to some possible reaction from Sandor, but it seems that we never come to see it, or....

As the next Eddart chapter follows

Sounds a bit like foreshadowing to me - might be wrong, but that's how i read it.

Then in ACOK we have Varis small riddle he gave to Tyrion, and the riddle speaks of sellsword and we never come to learn the exact answer, because Tyrion was too flattered by the suggestion that a very small man can cast a very large shadow.

Then Cersei on few occasions mentions that Sandor was like father to Joffrey or something to that extend and we really see his influence when he backups Sansa's nameday bed luck lie - Jof was not happy about it but he accept it.

So that's my crackpot - Sandor took part in Ned execution, convincing Jof to do it.

And the reason, I think you can find here

I don't deny that LF also is in that.

Hmmm, well anything is possible, but this really doesn't strike me as Sandor's style at all. He's a straighforward "cleave the guy in half" type of man, or, if he can't do that, then get drunk and even more bitter. Jaime once stated that he wouldn't send someone to kill for him, he would do the job himself. I think that statement applies to Sandor just as well. He's a smart guy, has lots of street smarts, very perceptive, but he's not crafty.

[Queen of Spades]

He's a straighforward "cleave the guy in half" type of man

I love this description :P

[jarl the climber]

Doesn't the Hound mention something about Ned to Arya when he is trying to goad her into killing him maybe it earlier but it sounded like he felt guilty for standing by why Ned was killed. He had actually decided that he wanted to serve Robb because he was like Ned and was going to kill his brother for him if he took him into his service.

[Queen of Spades]

Doesn't the Hound mention something about Ned to Arya when he is trying to goad her into killing him maybe it earlier but it sounded like he felt guilty for standing by why Ned was killed. He had actually decided that he wanted to serve Robb because he was like Ned and was going to kill his brother for him if he took him into his service.

Not that I remember. He mentions only the butcher's boy and Sansa. However, you may have hit something there.

IIRC, the only time he does speak of Ned is with Sansa :

"You were a high lord's get. Don't tell me Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell never killed a man."

"That was his duty. He never liked it."

"Is that what he told you ?" Clegane laughed again. "Your father lied. Killing is the sweetest thing there is." He drew his longsword. "Here's your truth. Your precious father found that out on Baelor's steps. Lord of Winterfell, Hand of the King, Warden of the North, the mighty Eddard Stark, of a line eight thousand years old... but Ilyn Payne's blade went through his neck all the same, didn't it ? Do you remember the dance he did when his head came off his shoulders?"

I always read it as he was only being a total jerk to Sansa, but I never thought there could be a personnal resentment towards Eddard Stark. Now that you say it... how could we have missed it ? :o

EDIT : I still don't think he did something shrewd as plotting Ned's death by way of Joffrey. As some have said, he is more direct in his hatred.

But he may have experienced a mean satisfaction in beholding Stark's death...

[jarl the climber]

Here is the quote I was thinkig about, this is when he is lying wounded on the ground after defeating Beric, Arya has a knife in her hand, "You killed Mycah," she said once more daring him to deny it." "Tell them.. You did. You did."

"I did." His whole face twisted. " I rode him down and cut him in half and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your fathers head off."

So he equates watching Ned die with watching Sansa being beaten, he does not say us or I he says them in regard to these 2 acts.

[Lyanna Stark]

a. Come on, do you really think that once Aegon is King, he can't make the High Septon break Sansa's marriage ?

b. The winter won't last forever, and the North represents half of Westeros. They would never accept to follow Sansa as Lady Lannister, but Aegon intends to fight the Lannisters...

c. Arianne represents a great possible alliance too. However, Dorne may be willing to join Aegon anyway. Or not. Aegon should definitely marry them both, that would secure the North and the South :D

d. Technically, Aegon was mentionned very early, even if all believed him to be dead ;)

I still want Sansa to end up with Sandor, though... but will we get what we want ?

No, I don't think f!Aegon can make the new High Septon break the marriage up. Why would he? f!Aegon has met Tyrion, he has no reason to despise him or break up his marriage, even in his absence. And there are easier and better alliances to forge than to wed a northern girl with no army to bring. The Winter has just arrived, and will most likely last until the dragons have burnt up the Others or until the end of the series at the least, at which point f!Aegon will probably be moot anyway.

Dorne was willing to join Daenerys, but Harry Strickland has his doubts about how easily it will be to persuade Doran. Jon Connington seems to think they need to take more castles and get a better foothold before the Dornish can be persuaded to join, although Storms End would fit that description.

Aegon Targaryen was mentioned early yes, but not fake-Aegon Blackfyre.

Now why would Robert care about the Hounds reaction. It doesn't make much sense. And we are twice pointed to some possible reaction from Sandor, but it seems that we never come to see it, or....

Probably because everyone knew Sandor wanted to kill his brother. Robar was at the meeting with Ned, so he knew they sent Beric off after Gregor, but Robert didn't tell Sandor, he assumed Cersei would later. Which is probably why he is pissed off the day after, too.

Interestingly, when Ned sends Beric after Gregor, Varys mentions that Ser Ilyn is not amused. And that Ned is usurping Ser Ilyn as the Kings Justice. So Ser Ilyn would definitely be keen to kill Ned. I agree with the people who think it does not sound like Sandor's style. He's definitely more direct, cleave people in half, sort of person. Although if Joffrey conspired with LF, he could possibly shut up about it, although I believe he would have told Cersei since he was her retainer before he became Joff's.

"I did." His whole face twisted. " I rode him down and cut him in half and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your fathers head off."

So he equates watching Ned die with watching Sansa being beaten, he does not say us or I he says them in regard to these 2 acts.

Could mean he just thought is the wrong thing to do, or it could mean he knew that it was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it.

[Queen of Spades]

Here is the quote I was thinkig about, this is when he is lying wounded on the ground after defeating Beric, Arya has a knife in her hand, "You killed Mycah," she said once more daring him to deny it." "Tell them.. You did. You did."

"I did." His whole face twisted. " I rode him down and cut him in half and laughed. I watched them beat your sister bloody too, watched them cut your fathers head off."

So he equates watching Ned die with watching Sansa being beaten, he does not say us or I he says them in regard to these 2 acts.

Ha, I had forgotten that quote...

But you're right : that means he was not involved in Ned's death, no more than he was in Sansa's beating.

I feel relieved : I could not ship SanSan anymore he had had any part in this ! :)

Aegon Targaryen was mentioned early yes, but not fake-Aegon Blackfyre.

It is still possible that he is genuine, you know ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

It is still possible that he is genuine, you know ;)

There's still the possibility that Jon is only Ned's bastard, too. :)

I do agree with you though, I really don't think Sandor had a hand in Ned's death. It doesn't seem like something he would do at all. Tyrion thinks that if Joff had tried to get Sandor to murder Bran, he would have gone to Cersei. I can't imagine that he'd rect much differently to Joff trying to murder Ned.

[Megara]

I think at the moment when Ned Stark was confessing his "crimes" in front of everybody, Sandor was still 100% a Lannister man, and he probably knew about Cercei's plan of sending Ned to the Wall. I really can imagine Joffrey complaining about his mother's petition, but I don't imagine him sharing his own plans with his "dog". So, when Joffrey decided to execute Ned, I think Sandor was as surprised as everybody... and later, when he realized that Joffrey is a monster and that Eddard Stark was indeed a very honorable man, he felt a little bit bad for the whole situation, like not being able to do anything to stop Joffrey and help the "good guy" Lord Stark (not that he could, anyway...)

[Lyanna Stark]

As per the wiki: According to song, he once saved Princess Daeryssa from Giants. He slew the dragon Urrax by approaching the beast behind his shield so the dragon only saw its own reflection, Serwyn then speared Urrax through the eye. He was haunted by ghosts of all the knights he killed.

Giants...titans.....

Haunted by the ghosts of the men/knights he killed...

It very well could allude to Sandor. B)

I have more thoughts on this.....but I need to reflect on them and be will back...

Reading the Wiki there is one thing that stands out about Serwyn and that is that the story of him is probably very old, which may mean he was of the First Men, meaning he was no knight.

[Kittykatknits]

Probably because everyone knew Sandor wanted to kill his brother. Robar was at the meeting with Ned, so he knew they sent Beric off after Gregor, but Robert didn't tell Sandor, he assumed Cersei would later. Which is probably why he is pissed off the day after, too.

Interestingly, when Ned sends Beric after Gregor, Varys mentions that Ser Ilyn is not amused. And that Ned is usurping Ser Ilyn as the Kings Justice. So Ser Ilyn would definitely be keen to kill Ned. I agree with the people who think it does not sound like Sandor's style. He's definitely more direct, cleave people in half, sort of person. Although if Joffrey conspired with LF, he could possibly shut up about it, although I believe he would have told Cersei since he was her retainer before he became Joff's.

Could mean he just thought is the wrong thing to do, or it could mean he knew that it was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it.

I think at the moment when Ned Stark was confessing his "crimes" in front of everybody, Sandor was still 100% a Lannister man, and he probably knew about Cercei's plan of sending Ned to the Wall. I really can imagine Joffrey complaining about his mother's petition, but I don't imagine him sharing his own plans with his "dog". So, when Joffrey decided to execute Ned, I think Sandor was as surprised as everybody... and later, when he realized that Joffrey is a monster and that Eddard Stark was indeed a very honorable man, he felt a little bit bad for the whole situation, like not being able to do anything to stop Joffrey and help the "good guy" Lord Stark (not that he could, anyway...)

I really don't think Sandor knew anything about Joff's plans and was as surprised as anone else. He humored Joff earlier in the book but that stopped later on which, to me, indicates that he first saw Joff as just a rotten, little brat.

I'm convinced that if Sandor knew of his plans that he would have gone to Cersei. Tyrion makes that rather obvious when he thinks about getting a whore for Joffrey. Tyrion reflects that he'd have to get Sandor away first or else he would go running to Cersei. If Sandor would go to her for something like this, not much of a leap to figure he would go to her for something like killing Ned.