When is 'The World Of Ice and Fire' coming out?

[sifth]

I love how no one seems to know anything about even when remotely soon this book will come out. Like with the main sereis all we ever seem to get are a bunch of "maybes and it could be this year"

don't get me wrong I sure the book will look nice when it comes out in ten years, lol

[Ran]

It doesn't really fit into the world book, because, well, it'd be too big then. Plus it deviates from the style elsewhere, as GRRM created it in a particular voice as he developed the events and characters. You'll see it excerpted here and there, but mostly it's one of among a number of "sources" that the maester who "wrote" _The World of Ice and Fire_ will use.

As to Spring 2014, all I can say is that is a possible date that has been presented to Linda, George, and I by Bantam -- it's not something that anyone made up for anyone's titillation, but rather a one of a couple potential dates they saw at the time. I haven't heard from them that anything has changed, but it's really very much a business decision on their part. If their marketing team looked at it and decided the holiday was better -- and it bears mentioning that this book was, when originally mooted, seen predominantly as a holiday release because that's peak sale time for books of that kind (and books in general) -- then that's probably what they'll go with, regardless of whether it could get out sooner or not.

I'm not saying that they've settled on the holiday release date -- I don't actually know when it will be published between the suggested dates as, again, it's a business decision -- but having some actual first hand knowledge of it, I can assure everyone that there's nothing more cynical to naming the potential for a spring date than a belief that releasing it with the show might give it more exposure and better sales than at some other date.

[Calibandar]

Thanks Ran, good to know.

[Alhazred]

This doesn't apply. The exclusivity thing is solely for the story as it appears in Dangerous Women. A shortened, summary version of the same story can be published elsewhere without a problem.

Spring 2014 seems to be disappearing as a possibility. If it was going to be then, they'd probably have announced it now, so I'd certainly be banking on next October/November.

It would apply in any arms-length dealing. If the other party were zealous about protecting their contracted rights, could you evade it by modifying the text, or by breaking it up into multiple "excerpts"? Of course not!

Of course, in this case, it is largely the same people involved in both cases. So if all people feel more money can be made by releasing the WORLD BOOK a month early (like November), thereby reducing the exclusivity period to eleven months, I am sure it can be arranged. But the bottom line is, DANGEROUS WOMEN will sell less well if the WORLD BOOK steps on its toes with a substantially similar product within a short period of time. Publishers are in the business of making money.

Right now, the goal is to convince people to buy DANGEROUS WOMEN. So you are hinting (without actually saying) that Ran's version will somehow be inferior to the version that will appear in DANGEROUS WOMEN. A rather different tune will probably be sung once DANGEROUS WOMEN has been out for a year, and the WORLD BOOK is getting ready to hit the market.

Of course, I have no reason to doubt that the two versions might be different in various ways, that might be more than trivial. That's another way to get folks to buy both products. And the DANGEROUS WOMEN folks might agree to a shorter exclusivity deal on a variant version, in exchange for a longer exclusivity deal their own variant.

[Ran]

Okay, just to explain the textual history again, so we can stop having conspiracy theories about this stuff.

We needed material on the Dance of the Dragons for the world book. GRRM proceeded to provide... and provide ... and provide -- there were a lot of really interesting ideas forming as he wrote. He ended up writing something like 90,000 words in a narrative history of the Dance of Dragons.

This was too much for the world book. So what we did is, we condensed and re-wrote it in "our" own voice, with a few direct excerpts, and some sidebars. The World of Ice and Fire will present a history of the Dance of the Dragons from its very start to its very finish... but certain side-details, minor events, exhaustive accounts of battles, etc. are omitted. and a lot is condensed. Consider it the Reader's Digest version of the history, if you will. There's about 10,000 words, scattered throughout the world book, based on GRRM's original account. It has all the significant highlights, provides information on, I think, every major battle, and so on.

At the same time, it was decided that the history of the Dance of the Dragons as written by GRRM could work really well as a replacement for the Dunk and Egg story. But again, 90k words was too much. So there, George handed it to fellow editor Gardner Dozois, who proceeded to shape it and cut it down to size. Part of this meant that "The Princess and the Queen" does _not_ provide a full account of the Dance of the Dragons -- it goes up to the point where Rhaenys Targaryen dies, and then stops, leaving the war unresolved. It, too, cuts out various side details, particularly in relation to events that neither of the titular characters were personally aware of and/or present for. Imagine if you took AGoT, and cut out everything but Ned's chapters -- that's what "The Princess and the Queen" is in relation to the full history, in essence, a focused, narrowed perspective on a conflict that it does not see through to its end. There's about 30,000, more directly taken from GRRM's 90k original.

Finally, GRRM has suggested that at some far off date the original history of the Dance of the Dragons, full and unexpurgated, might see the light of day in the GRRMarillion.

So, one text is the source of two very different texts -- one a condensed version that covers the same time period, another an edited, narrowed one that covers only part of the time period.

ETA: Oh, and as I hope is obvious, there is no exclusivity issue between "The Princess and the Queen" and the worldbook. The publication of one does not impact when the other will be published.

[Alhazred]

Thank you for the explanation. But how come my suggestion that book sellers have financial motives is greeted with charges of conspiracy theory?

Like I said, I do not doubt that the two version may be different in various ways, partly in order to sell both products. You just confirmed that they will be different. You say your version incorporates only 10,000 words. I shall take your word for it for now. However, I presume the text is not finalized yet. You may decide, as November approaches, that the book will sell better if you include a bit more in the way of "excerpts". I presume the appropriate persons reserve the right to do so. Unless, of course, it is decided that more books can be sold by reserving material for another publication, to be released some time in the future.

Why double-dip when you can triple-dip? So yeah, I am totally willing to believe what you are now telling me.

ETA: Oh, and as I hope is obvious, there is no exclusivity issue between "The Princess and the Queen" and the worldbook. The publication of one does not impact when the other will be published.

Whatever, dude. All I am saying is, I don't expect to see this any sooner than November or December. I will be surprised if it happens. Like you said, the publishers will make a business decision.

[Ran]

We probably "incorporate" a lot less than 10,000 words. We have largely condensed it to fit the needs of the world book, so relatively little of the original text actually remains intact (a few hundred words, perhaps) except those excerpts directly from the text that we decided to include for color and effect. It is a very different text then what you'll see in either TPatQ or the prospective GRRMarillion.

Approximately 95% of the Targaryen history is in its final form, gone through multiple drafts, copyedited, and author approved. No more material will be added to the Dance of the Dragons section, other than any late corrections as I guess we'll probably do a second copy edit run through as its typeset and all.

You do realize that Dangerous Women and The World of Ice and Fire are published by two different publishers, right? TOR and Bantam are quite separate, and make separate decisions. I mean, Bantam and Voyager can't always agree on when they're publishing the books relative to one another, it's a bit much to be stuck on the idea that TOR publishing in December means that Bantam is somehow bound to wait a year. The spring date that was mooted was mooted after the TPatQ situation developed, after all, so so far as I'm aware, there really was no consideration on Bantam's part that they should give TOR some extra leeway.

I can't rule out that Linda and I have been kept in the dark on some things, but I am strongly disinclined to believe that Bantam makes a habit of actively lying to authors.

[Alhazred]

You do realize that Dangerous Women and The World of Ice and Fire are published by two different publishers, right?

I realize that different persons and entities are to some extent involved. Otherwise, GRRM's mention of the 1-year exclusivity contract would be entirely meaningless.

it's a bit much to be stuck on the idea that TOR publishing in December means that Bantam is somehow bound to wait a year.

No it isn't. Not if there is an exclusivity deal, and the terms forbid it. That's the very purpose of the one-year exclusivity deal. But of course, terms may have been re-negotiated when "The Princess and the Queen" was offered in place of the Dunk & Egg novella.

I can't rule out that Linda and I have been kept in the dark on some things, but I am strongly disinclined to believe that Bantam makes a habit of actively lying to authors.

I don't even know what you're talking about here. If they told you April was an option, then perhaps they thought the terms of the deal could be renegotiated for the right price. And no doubt it can be. But perhaps the price was not right. Like you said, they will make a business decision.

[Toccs]

No it isn't. Not if there is an exclusivity deal, and the terms forbid it. That's the very purpose of the one-year exclusivity deal. But of course, terms may have been re-negotiated when "The Princess and the Queen" was offered in place of the Dunk & Egg novella.

I think the point is dude, that they are two different texts, there is nothing in the Princess and the Queen that is in the The World of Ice and Fire. Two texts, same subject matter.

The exclusivity deal is so that for one year if anyone wants to read this GRRM story, they have to buy Dangerous Women. It's to stop GRRM publshing the Princess and the Queen (or the Dunk and Egg story) elsewhere, it doesn't effect the worldbook at all.

[Alhazred]

I think the point is dude, that they are two different texts, there is nothing in the Princess and the Queen that is in the The World of Ice and Fire. Two texts, same subject matter.

The exclusivity deal is so that for one year if anyone wants to read this GRRM story, they have to buy Dangerous Women. It's to stop GRRM publshing the Princess and the Queen (or the Dunk and Egg story) elsewhere, it doesn't effect the worldbook at all.

So you have read the agreement and know what its terms are? is that what you are saying?

I suspect that changing the wording of the text and calling it a "different text", might not work. It depends on the wording of the contract. But the attorneys who write such contracts are pretty good at protecting their clients. So if they publish a derivative work within a year, they might have to smooth over some ruffled feathers from the other party.

I have no inside information. There are a lot of unknown variables. But I am still betting on December.

[Ran]

There is no question whatsoever that there is any exclusivity concern regarding "The Princess and the Queen" and The World of Ice and Fire. I don't know how I can be clearer than that.

[Alhazred]

There is no question whatsoever that there is any exclusivity concern regarding "The Princess and the Queen" and The World of Ice and Fire. I don't know how I can be clearer than that.

Well. You could say "I don't know; I obviously don't need to know since I don't control the release date; and if I did know I would not discuss it publicly because it is a private business matter between Tor and Bantam."

That would be perfectly clear.

What you are saying instead is as clear as mud.

But whatever. Like I said, I am only guessing at the release date. And like I said, I don't expect to see this book before November or December, 2014. Exclusivity issues (and not stepping on the other guys toes, as GRRM would put it) is one of the reasons for my belief. I believe it is one of those mysterious "business reasons" your publishers mention to you when they discuss the mysterious release date.

If they told you April was an option that does not make them liars. Of course it is an option; an option to be discussed with their lawyers, and with the other publisher with the exclusivity clause, and with their financial analyst. Apparently it is not happening.

You are not promising me it is going to come our in April. You are not claiming you are privy to private contract issues? So how is your assurance that there are no exclusivity issues even a meaningful statement?

[Ran]

There is no exclusivity concern between TPatQ and TWoIaF. Again. That's very clear. And since I do have a contract, and am privy to stuff connected to it, I can say that much. I didn't even realize it had to be said until it became clear that you have this pet theory that the publication of TWoIaF is dictated by a notion that the exclusivity of TPatQ prevents it before a certain date. That is not the case. I say this as one of the writers of TWoIaF.

TWoIaF may be published in November, but that will have nothing to do with TPatQ.

[Myk Lonmouth]

Anyone want to take bets if he's still going to argue just to argue? I say yes.

[Veltigar]

Anyone want to take bets if he's still going to argue just to argue? I say yes.

Lol, agreed.

[Alhazred]

There is no exclusivity concern between TPatQ and TWoIaF. Again. That's very clear.

It is possible that Tor books may disagree, and it is also possible that Bantam does not want to step on their toes; seeing as their toes may already be sore, seeing as they were offered a Dunk & Egg exclusive deal, and got something else instead.

And since I do have a contract, and am privy to stuff connected to it, I can say that much.

Dude! Why are you talking about YOUR contract? Your contract is completely irrelevant.

I didn't even realize it had to be said ...

Why does it "have to be said"? Frankly, I don't know what you are trying to do here at all. You are not promising an April release, but for some reason are anxious that I believe this non-promise in some remotely distant way. You have no information on the exclusivity issue, but seem to demand I believe arguments derived from non-information.

You say exclusivity can't be a factor, because you imply if were you would know all about it. Well, I don't accept your omniscience as a premise. Sorry! Why would you know? Such information, if it existed, would naturally tend to be somewhat confidential. Especially since you have already admitted that the timing decisions are based on mysterious "business" reasons which Bantam keeps largely to itself.

until it became clear that you have this pet theory that the publication of TWoIaF is dictated by a notion that the exclusivity of TPatQ prevents it before a certain date. That is not the case. I say this as one of the writers of TWoIaF.

In short, you say this as one is not privy to what goes on between Tor & Bantam. Why should you be privy to Tor & Bantam's contract, or to their private discussions?

TWoIaF may be published in November, but that will have nothing to do with TPatQ.

If you want to prove me wrong, publish it earlier. See? I am not being unreasonable at all. I acknowledge meaningful evidence.

But if it gets published in November or later, then I think that Tor's sore toes, and a certain amount of overlapping material, and a former promise of exclusivity (possibly to some extent renegotiated) probably has something to do with it. I may well have guessed wrong, but that does not I have to stand for you (who are also only guessing) bullying me with bad arguments, false claims of authority, or calling me a conspiracy theorist or a cynic.

In any event, it hardly matters. I don't expect to see this before November in any event. If it appears in November (as appears will happen), and the overlapping material is limited (as you say is the case) Tor books will likely shrug it off. Under those facts your statement that there is no exclusivity issue may turn out to be more-or-less correct.

[Toccs]

snip

Dude, how can you not be getting this? The reason that they get writers like GRRM to contribute to these anthology books, is so that GRRM's fans will then buy that book. The exclusivity deal is to make sure that happens. They don't care one bit if they get a Dunk and Egg story or the Princess and the Queen, all they care about is that those stories cannot be published elsewhere, thus meaning all the GRRM fans will have to purchase Dangerous Women to read the story. That's what these exclusivity deals are about.

Since neither The Princess and the Queen or the She Wolves of Winterfell are included in whole or in part in the Worldbook, the exclusivity deal does not effect it at all, or even take it into account.

You do realize how it makes you look to be sitting here arguing with one of the authors of a book about what really goes on behind the scenes in it's publishing?

[Alhazred]

Dude, how can you not be getting this? The reason that they get writers like GRRM to contribute to these anthology books, is so that GRRM's fans will then buy that book. The exclusivity deal is to make sure that happens.

I agree that there is probably an exclusivity deal. Partly for the above reasons, and party because GRRM said there was one.

They don't care one bit if they get a Dunk and Egg story or the Princess and the Queen

That depends on whether one sells as well as the other. Which it may well do. If it sells just as well, then they will be just as happy.

But they may be a bit nervous about that right now. A short story featuring known characters, versus an experimental exercise in "fake history"? Is it really the same?

, all they care about is that those stories cannot be published elsewhere, thus meaning all the GRRM fans will have to purchase Dangerous Women to read the story. That's what these exclusivity deals are about.

What's your point? I agree that Tor probably cares about their exclusivity deal.

Since neither The Princess and the Queen or the She Wolves of Winterfell are included in whole or in part in the Worldbook, the exclusivity deal does not effect it at all, or even take it into account.

So basically, you are yet another person pretending he knows the terms of the exclusivity clause, even though he has not read it.

Not only must they be satisfied with an unknown product, a not-quite novella piece of fake history, which they are not sure will sell, but you think they won't at all be upset at the news that there will be another product on the market covering the same ground; a product that summarizes and excerpts their own product, and moreover has additional material on the same subject, a product that will probably be the first choice of fans willing to try GRRM's new experiment in "fake history" style writing.

You do realize how it makes you look to be sitting here arguing with one of the authors of a book about what really goes on behind the scenes in it's publishing?

No, I don't. Do tell me how it "makes me look." I'm sure I'd LOVE to hear it.

GRRM, the author of the material involved, said there was an exclusivity deal. I'm not arguing with him at all. In fact, I tend to believe him.

Ran says there is no exclusivity deal; or that it does not apply unless the texts are precisely identical. But he has not given the slightest indication that he knows what he is talking about. He is not the author of "THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN", is not privy to the contract between Tor and Bantam and GRRM, and there is no good reason anyone should have told him about it. This sort of information is normally confidential (GRRM may have let something slip), and Ran is not one of the parties directly involved. He just isn't. Sorry! Ran evidently feels that, because it may effect him (in terms of the publication date of the book of which he is the co-author), it is his business, and he ought to know about it if it were true. But it just does not work that way. Bantam is under no obligation to reveal confidential business information to third parties who are going to then argue about it on the internet. Not even if they are authors. Sorry.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

This is hilarious. This guy is actually serious, isn't he?

Ran, you should post that the sky is blue or that the Earth is round. Better yet, post what color your shirt is, something you obviously know and he obviously does not, and so we can laugh when he tells you you're wrong.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

Denzel Washington!!!!!!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l_8yPap-k_s&ei=MEeUUtbBJI_JsQTnwICwCQ&ved=0CAsQqwQ&sa=X&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dl_8yPap-k_s%26sa%3DX%26ei%3DMEeUUtbBJI_JsQTnwICwCQ%26ved%3D0CAsQqwQ