Aussies LVII

[Gillio]

I often say, "no matter who you vote for, you end up with a politician!"

[gryphon strike]

Wasn't the carbon tax supposed to help combat global warming?

It is 20 years to late to do that.

Democracy, the Labour party in their latest leadership challenge blatantly set Mr Rudd up and then proceeded to stab him in the back worse than the ides of march! The people made it clear they wanted him as leader and the people were ignored, democratic process when 3 faceless men control exactly how the party votes etc, you have to be joking.

I mean the mining super tax is discriminatory which is illegal thus it may well be a no go.

We have already set a price on the resource in the ground and now we are saying they are making too much profit so we want more, How is that different from the record profits of the banks?

ETA: Am enjoying this very much TWS hope you are too if not we can stop.

[Leviathan I]

Wasn't the carbon tax supposed to help combat global warming?

It is 20 years to late to do that.

Democracy, the Labour party in their latest leadership challenge blatantly set Mr Rudd up and then proceeded to stab him in the back worse than the ides of march! The people made it clear they wanted him as leader and the people were ignored, democratic process when 3 faceless men control exactly how the party votes etc, you have to be joking.

I mean the mining super tax is discriminatory which is illegal thus it may well be a no go.

We have already set a price on the resource in the ground and now we are saying they are making too much profit so we want more, How is that different from the record profits of the banks?

ETA: Am enjoying this very much TWS hope you are too if not we can stop.

I think the carbon tax is to reduce our emissions. I don't think we could have a "save the world!" mentality because we only produce like 1% of emissions, the goal is to reduce our own emissions which has obvious benefits.

I don't see anything wrong with the mining tax. Australia has a 2 speed economy because of the mining boom; where the mining industry is growing at a ridiculously fast rate while the rest of Australia is significantly slower. It makes sense to be put an extra tax on these obscene profits and redistribute that wealth into the rest of Australia to balance our economy. Keep in mind that I'm not the most politically knowledgeable person because I'm 15 but that's how I see it anyway.

[gryphon strike]

ok Leviathan let me put it to you like this, the mining company says to the gov we want to mine the copper and gold and uranium ore in this deposit at roxby downs. The gov says ok we will charge you X amount per ton of ore you remove. The company decides if it is profitable or not and either negotiates or whatever at any rate an agreement in writing is struck and mining goes ahead.

Then the Gov decides heck I have not charged enough for that ore and wants to raise the price ie mining super tax. Equivilant to me agreeing to sell you a car in writing for $1000 and then deciding I want $2,000 for it.

I have no problem with a super profits tax for everyone which would kick in at ex amount of profit as a percentage of outlay. ie they make 200% profit then they pay the tax like the banks. they are making massive profits on very little outlay. their borrowing costs are at an all time low despite their claims to the contrary.

[Leviathan I]

So here's how the tax actually works (to the best of knowledge). Mining companies already pay a tax, the super profits tax is about increasing that tax if they make over a certain amount of profit, not raising the price of mining an area. Before the super tax they pay 5% of annual income to the state where they operate as royalties and a federal company tax (which has some complex method of working out), altogether this comes to 41% tax. The super tax lowers the federal company tax rate which means miners making a smaller profit will pay less tax and only companies making obscene profits will pay extra tax. If a company is making a certain amount of profit they will get the super tax which is determined with another complex equation and comes to 57%. If a company fails to turn a profit the government would reimburse 40 per cent of its initial investment.

The tax is about placing a higher tax rate only on companies making obscene profits from our resources so the rest of Australia can benefit. The large companies are still making a shit-ton of money with or without the tax.

[Horza]

Should point out that this is no different to what was done with oil and gas in the late 80s with the Petroleum Resources Rent Tax - last time I checked we appeared to still have an active offshore petroleum industry...

[gryphon strike]

And Leviathan I am not against taxing the obscene profits just that good gov would tax all obscene profits not just the mining company. They got around the discrimination on the oil and NG sector by making the people pay for it at the pump.

The current tax is discriminatory and thus is not good gov. It is these points that make the difference between good and bad gov.

[Daemrion]

Gryphon Strike,

How would you define obscene profits? Based of accounts? Because accounts are easily manipulated as we are seeing with the MRRT itself as well, with mining companies writing up their assets in their accounts to avoid paying tax.

Akso, you can tax mining companies easier because they have to be in Australia (the land) to mine, other companies such as Google do everything through Ireland because they don't have to have much of a physical presence here although they do a lot of business.

Second, shouldn't we be imposing more costs on mining to start rebalancing the economy and also because mining is finite (say unlike banking)? We're in trouble once the mining runs out. We need more money from it.

The only other method is to stimluate other sectors of the economy, and we can't do that without the government going into deeper deficit which is political poison (or we could end up like the PIIGS - who all probably have a sustained massive structural deficit). The government need to raise more money, and the miners (and banks) are the ones that have that ability to pay. Whilst Australia does have a lot of welfare inefficiencies, still there are people out there who genuinely could use the extra money raised from taxes to help them out (especially people like carers for disabled or elderly etc...).

It's gotten to the point where everyone expects more services and less tax at the same time. Basic laws of logic say that there comes a point when that just won't work.

[Horza]

It's gotten to the point where everyone expects more services and less tax at the same time. Basic laws of logic say that there comes a point when that just won't work.

On a tangent: this semester I was reading some research on what Australians prefer out of tax cuts or services. I thought it was pretty interesting.

When surveys started measuring this in the late 80s and into the 90s support was higher for tax cuts, but around 2001 that began to turn around. Interestingly, when Mining Boom Mk I hit and Howard and Costello really opened up the tax cuts and middle-class welfare spigot support for services spending kept climbing, and peaked in 2007 at 48% (vs 33% for tax cuts).

In the last Australian Electoral Survey (2010, after the GFC and the ETS, RSPT, stimulus packages etc) that dropped to about the same level as support for tax cuts (35% vs 37%) and 'depends' jumped to 27% (+8), suggesting a new age of ambivalence. Or something.

[gryphon strike]

Damerion accounts can only be fudged so much otherwise anyone could go through the books and see how badly they are fudging. In todays computer age it is relatively simple to see if the wages bill etc is correct.

You post to me seems to be both for and against. Let me ask you what is your objection to making it a simple super profits tax?

It would not be discriminatory and would be on anyone making massive profits, where is the problem?

I seriously am having a problem with people opposing making something fair rather than discriminatory, why do you WANT to discriminate?

[Stubby]

I must say that the recent series of posts is doing nothing to advance our reputation as a nation of apathists. :P

Carry on.

[The Winged Shadow]

Wasn't the carbon tax supposed to help combat global warming?

It is 20 years to late to do that.

20 years too late is still better than never. Its not like that things cannot get any worse. We are already very close to the worst case scenario with our current and future emission patterns. If we do nothing, it will keep getting worse.

Democracy, the Labour party in their latest leadership challenge blatantly set Mr Rudd up and then proceeded to stab him in the back worse than the ides of march! The people made it clear they wanted him as leader and the people were ignored, democratic process when 3 faceless men control exactly how the party votes etc, you have to be joking.

"The People" also wanted a change when Rudd failed to pass the carbon scheme and mining tax. Which, along with Rudd's inability to share the power amongst his ministers, resulted in the coup. Some people wanted to get rid of Rudd back then, some didnt. Just like some wanted to bring back Rudd, while some don't. The idea that somehow "The people" chose Rudd is ludicrous. While he is probably the more popular one now, he certainly wasn't all that popular when he was backstabbed (though the backstabbing did gain him a lot of sympathies).

Frankly, I want stability in our government, not a system where if things don't change on the whims of certain groups of people, suddenly its not democracy. We voted Labor & Co in, they choose their leader within the party. That's how our system works.

I am no fan of the Labor factions. But if you think that this is not how things are with other parties (here or internationally), you are kidding yourself. Liberal parties have their own, as shown by the Abbott and Turnbull leadership challenge. Greens do to, though I don't know much about that. People with power will try to consolidate more power. It's just how it is, it is the human condition. May be one day we will come up with a better, more fair system, but until then, we will have to make do with what we have. And vote for the least hate-able party :P

I mean the mining super tax is discriminatory which is illegal thus it may well be a no go.

We have already set a price on the resource in the ground and now we are saying they are making too much profit so we want more, How is that different from the record profits of the banks?

Tax system has always been more or less discriminatory. I don't think that makes it illegal. We have a progressive income tax system after all, which is very much discriminatory, if you choose to look at it that way. Some companies get tax breaks, some are subsidized etc, so the playing field was never really level.

Simply put, mining companies are selling our shit, but we are not benefiting nearly as much from the boom as the fat cats are. If they were selling their own shit and making lots of money out of it, it'd be different. But its not, which is why mining super profit tax and a supposed banking super profit tax are not the same thing. Banks utilizes people's personal wealth to make profits, while mining company utilizes property that belongs to the people of Australia (but not really "personal wealth", so to speak). If you cannot see the difference, I don't know how else to differentiate it.

On top of that, the boom has caused some serious damage to other industries (manufacturing, tourism) through the high dollar. The idea was to use the money from the new tax to help the struggling industries where it is shown to be sustainable.

[gryphon strike]

ROFLMAO @ Stubby's post

TWS yes politics is a truly disgusting business no question about it, the thing is that stability as you call it results in people like Howard being in far far longer than they deserve. NOT GOING TO RANT ABOUT MR SHEEN

What we really need is a total clean up on how we select possible representatives.

I still do not understand why people choose to discriminate can you address that please?

There is no reason why we should allow the banks a free reign and then punish the mining industry.

[The Winged Shadow]

ROFLMAO @ Stubby's post

TWS yes politics is a truly disgusting business no question about it, the thing is that stability as you call it results in people like Howard being in far far longer than they deserve. NOT GOING TO RANT ABOUT MR SHEEN

What we really need is a total clean up on how we select possible representatives.

I still do not understand why people choose to discriminate can you address that please?

There is no reason why we should allow the banks a free reign and then punish the mining industry.

Howard did alright. Depends what issue is closest to your heart, I guess. I mostly judge things on the basis on economy. But if other things, say our immigration policy, is what matters to you most, then obviously your opinion will differ. But Howard had his moments, GST being a key one.

Banks are heavily regulated in Australia, so they do not have free reign. Which is why our banks are relatively healthy compared to other banks overseas. Again, banks are using personal wealth and their own intellectual services to produce profit. Mining is different because they are selling our stuff but we are not getting a fair enough slice (your opinion may differ). The mining industry making ridiculous profit is in no way a punishment. And asking for a larger share of the super profit is not unreasonable. When banks make money off my money, my money is still there, hell, it even grows. The same is not true of mining. Its a limited resource, and we will never get it back once its been unearthed and sold off.

Discrimination is the way you choose to look at it. You want to treat all businesses the same, but not all businesses are the same! You are simplifying a complex issue to the percentage of tax different businesses pay. It tends to be more complicated than that.

[sh_wulff]

I must say that the recent series of posts is doing nothing to advance our reputation as a nation of apathists. :P

QFT!!

Perhaps we should return to the cricket thread where we can discuss our true passions! ;)

Though I can't think of cricket in winter.

[The Winged Shadow]

QFT!!

Perhaps we should return to the cricket thread where we can discuss our true passions! ;)

Though I can't think of cricket in winter.

Wise words!

Went down to Sydney again on the weekend to play cricket at the nets, only to have shitty weather ruin everything. Totally killed the weekend.

[The Winged Shadow]

I was so excited to see Venus passing between the earth and sun, then that bastard weather came and ruined everything. Killed a few trees too, around my area. It has been a miserable weather the last few days. Rainy, Cold, Windy..

This is what Melbourne must be like :P

[Horza]

meh, I'll catch it in 2117.

[Neal]

Pictures on the net were a lot better than my shitty eyesight looking up at the sun :)

[sh_wulff]

Pictures on the net were a lot better than my shitty eyesight looking up at the sun :)

agree

talk about wild weather!