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FacelessDude

Shae and Tywin?

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Yes, as warm hands beat away his tears...but I think the plot is nicely bookended. Tyrion has just been told the deception about THE whore in his past, his first love Tysha, wasn't really a whore at all. And Shae, in spite of all her professed love, in the end, it was just the lie he had been thinking women thought of him, after all. It was just for his money. A double whammy, if you will.

I predict more haunting memories for Tyrion.

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It was unexpected, but given Jaime's previous admission that Tysha was not a whore and Tywin made the whole thing up to humiliate Tyrion cast some spots on Tywin's flawless, honorable character. What I can't figure out is why he let Shae wear the chain of command, I get the impression he would've taken that chain much more seriously than to give it to her for laughs.

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It was unexpected, but given Jaime's previous admission that Tysha was not a whore and Tywin made the whole thing up to humiliate Tyrion cast some spots on Tywin's flawless, honorable character. What I can't figure out is why he let Shae wear the chain of command, I get the impression he would've taken that chain much more seriously than to give it to her for laughs.

Shae probably put it on while Tywin went to the privy, either to amuse herself or to see if Tywin liked it when he came back. We see her doing this with Tyrion, suggesting various things to see if that's what turns her client on (e.g. asking if Tyrion wants to lick gravy off her breasts when he suggests she pose as a kitchen wench).

Tywin using whores isn't surprising - he refuses to marry again, even though there would be political advantages, and doesn't trust a mistress after what happened with Tyros Lannister. He probably sees using a whore as carefully rationing his desires. It's interesting though that he uses his son's whore, given his professed contempt for Tyrion. Either Tywin has so little regard for whores or his son that using Tyrion's "leavings" doesn't bother him, or there's an underlying need to compete with or upstage his son.

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Shae probably put it on while Tywin went to the privy, either to amuse herself or to see if Tywin liked it when he came back. We see her doing this with Tyrion, suggesting various things to see if that's what turns her client on (e.g. asking if Tyrion wants to lick gravy off her breasts when he suggests she pose as a kitchen wench).

Tywin using whores isn't surprising - he refuses to marry again, even though there would be political advantages, and doesn't trust a mistress after what happened with Tyros Lannister. He probably sees using a whore as carefully rationing his desires. It's interesting though that he uses his son's whore, given his professed contempt for Tyrion. Either Tywin has so little regard for whores or his son that using Tyrion's "leavings" doesn't bother him, or there's an underlying need to compete with or upstage his son.

The latter sounds more like it. Even though Tywin favored Jaime, he and Tyrion had more in common than either would likely care to admit.

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I'm surprised I haven't seen this theory anywhere yet, and it may be total rubbish... But what if Shae was already Tywin's whore from the get-go?

When Tyrion asks Bronn where he found her, Bronn answers,

"I took her from a knight. The man was loath to give her up, but your name changed his thinking somewhat . . . that, and my dirk at his throat."

I think he may have diguised the situation, obviosly no one who would threaten Tywin would live to tell of it unless he actually killed him. Also, when Tyrion asks the name of the knight, Bronn dodges the question, possibly because he couldn't very well tell him the knight was actually a lord and that lord was Tywin.

Which would explain why they were together when Tyrion killed them. Tywin could have agreed to just give her to Bronn after learning hearing he seeks a whore at the behest of Tyrion, just so he could tell Tyrion not to bring her to court in spite of him. Or he could have used her to be a spy, knowing Tyrion would take her anyway. Either way, Tywin clearly knew of her existence and importance to Tyrion, expressly commanding his son not to take her to court and "reacquaints" himself with her sometime after he comes back to King's Landing.

Also considering how pretty she was for a whore, it's not surprising that she would be in the service of a lord. I mean, he shits gold afterall.. well actually I guess he's just full of bullshit considering his public contempt for whores

Anyways, just a theory.

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I'm surprised I haven't seen this theory anywhere yet, and it may be total rubbish... But what if Shae was already Tywin's whore from the get-go?

When Tyrion asks Bronn where he found her, Bronn answers,

I think he may have diguised the situation, obviosly no one who would threaten Tywin would live to tell of it unless he actually killed him. Also, when Tyrion asks the name of the knight, Bronn dodges the question, possibly because he couldn't very well tell him the knight was actually a lord and that lord was Tywin.

Which would explain why they were together when Tyrion killed them. Tywin could have agreed to just give her to Bronn after learning hearing he seeks a whore at the behest of Tyrion, just so he could tell Tyrion not to bring her to court in spite of him. Or he could have used her to be a spy, knowing Tyrion would take her anyway. Either way, Tywin clearly knew of her existence and importance to Tyrion, expressly commanding his son not to take her to court and "reacquaints" himself with her sometime after he comes back to King's Landing.

Also considering how pretty she was for a whore, it's not surprising that she would be in the service of a lord. I mean, he shits gold afterall.. well actually I guess he's just full of bullshit considering his public contempt for whores

Anyways, just a theory.

That's a possible idea, and well thought out. When Shae was in court, the first thing I thought of was earlier in the book when Tywin mentioned his cock would be his Tyrion's own undoing. Obviously a set up/payoff and made me wonder if Tywin was forewarning him(For what reason though I have no idea).

Only thing though, if that was the case what was the point in telling Tyrion not to bring her to court? It obviously wasn't an attempt at reverse psychology, as Tyrion would've brought her anyway.

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they were mashing it and it makes sense, first because shae is a whore and she just wanted money and twyin is the richest man in westeros,in fact she might have been his all along since she was a camp follower and following his army, plus it is rumored he had a passage made from his tower to a brothel which says a lot. now if you think of tysha you see he wants to hurt tyrion so he could have made her meet him and fuck him and paid her to, since she wanted money and the father and son would give to her it seems likely she would take it.Or maybe he didnt set it up and shae just met tyrion by chance, of course if you pay attention tyrion is much like his father and they both whore it up so it is likey they were banging

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There are two schools of thought on this. Yes Tywin slept with Shae and no, it was all a set up by Varys to make sure that Tyrion killed Tywin.

Both are quite nice in a way as depending on your view you can then either have Tywin as a self-righteous hypocrite or Varys as a vicious schemer.

Interesting about Varys. Why would Varys take him that way and did not try and stop him very much. Then, I think Tywin was just a hypocrite because Shae would have had to scheme with Varys which seemed unlikely and they way she reacted to Tyrion makes me think she did sleep with him. I also thought Tyrion was Vary's piece on the board, but I also think why would Varys want Tyrion to know how his "little birds" hear everything and discover hiding places.

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How are people managing to think Varys actually set this up? There is simply no way.

He never once mentioned anything to Tyrion of where the ladder lead (Tyrion figured it out on his own after recalling asking Shae about the secret passage and then pressed Varys into directing him to the Hand's room). Even then he was hesitant to let him go that way (they were going the opposite way). I also doubt Varys thought Tyrion would actually kill his father.

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I was reading through these pages and I suddenly had a thought. What if Bronn didn't take her away from who he said he did (at the camp), but had arranged it with Tywin that Shae would be taken to Tyrion so Tywin would have someone to keep an eye on him and to report back. I'm thinking that Tywin and Shae had a relationship (if you can call it that) before she ever met Tyrion. Tywin told Tyrion not to bring Shae to the Kingslanding because telling someone not to do something is a guarantee that they will want to do it 100 times more. Bronn is a sellsword and its been shown he would do anything for money...so I can see him doing this.

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I was reading through these pages and I suddenly had a thought. What if Bronn didn't take her away from who he said he did (at the camp), but had arranged it with Tywin that Shae would be taken to Tyrion so Tywin would have someone to keep an eye on him and to report back. I'm thinking that Tywin and Shae had a relationship (if you can call it that) before she ever met Tyrion. Tywin told Tyrion not to bring Shae to the Kingslanding because telling someone not to do something is a guarantee that they will want to do it 100 times more. Bronn is a sellsword and its been shown he would do anything for money...so I can see him doing this.

This theory looks like it could be credible. I remember Bronn saying (I'm paraphrasing here) "she was some nobles whore."

I've thought about it and and can't come to a conclusion on the matter because GRRM is known for making his readers assume one thing, yet it's not what it seems.

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Tywin hates Tyrion to the core & he takes his revenge from Tyrion in strange, sadist & sometimes petty ways.



Giving his own son (an intelligent son at that) the charge of all the drains of CR, having the whole Lannister army rape Tyrion's wife & then force him to rape her too (when he could have just killed her or forced her to leave), reminding him time & again of being the cause of his mothers death, refusing to acknowledge his contribution for the victory on the Blackwater (I still remember the page long list of utter useless wimps who were made Lords & Knights after this battle but there was no mention of Tyrion), giving up on Tyrion when he was accused of killing Joffrey & asking him to take the Black (and requesting Jaime, a self confessed Kingslayer to return to CR) are just a few examples.



From these points in some twisted way maybe Tywin thought sleeping with his son's whore is some sort of punishment to his son? Maybe he assumes (correctly) that Shae was special to Tyrion since he took so much care to keep her identity a secret. And hence by sleeping with her he makes a mockery of Tyrions love & his relationship with her. Petty I know but anything to hurt & mock Tyrion I guess! :(



I really doubt the Varys theory.


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I disagree with the Varys as setting up Shae and Tywin to be discovered.



It appears that Varys does not want Tyrion to climb the ladder. When Tyrion returns and tells Varys "I killed my father." Varys rebukes him, you did have to go up there.



However, I think Varys did not stop Tyrion because he knew what Tyrion would find. And in the mood Tyrion was in, he would not take it well. Varys needed Tywin dead to allow Cersei a free hand at mucking up the realm.





I was reading through these pages and I suddenly had a thought. What if Bronn didn't take her away from who he said he did (at the camp), but had arranged it with Tywin that Shae would be taken to Tyrion so Tywin would have someone to keep an eye on him and to report back. I'm thinking that Tywin and Shae had a relationship (if you can call it that) before she ever met Tyrion. Tywin told Tyrion not to bring Shae to the Kingslanding because telling someone not to do something is a guarantee that they will want to do it 100 times more. Bronn is a sellsword and its been shown he would do anything for money...so I can see him doing this.





I agree with you. I think Bronn went out looking for a bedmate for Tyriom. Tywin got word of it, and produced Shae. A very pretty woman -- why would anyone in the service of the Lannisters give up such a prize to an unknown and mere sell sword? Tywin probably paid Bronn and Shea well for this. The only thing that bothers me is Tywin sharing Shaw with Tryion. Hard to imagine he would find her attractive after this. So yes, they must have had a pretty strong bond before he sent her to Tywin. I wonder if both Bronn and Tywin were reporting to Tywin during their tenure with Tyrion.


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I always thought Tywin just slept with Shae that one time, just to enforce his superiority over his son.


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Not-really-spoiler-but-still-in-spoiler-tag

In AFFC, Cersei insists that her father paraded whores who tried to sleep with him naked through the street to publicly shame them.

So, I do wish Tywin was banging Shae. I really do. But it seems he's refused to lay a hand on any woman since his wife died.

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