End of Disc One Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 My guess is the people who discovered ASOIAF only after the TV show started are the ones who like it, probably because they are more used to standard TV fare, while all the real fans tend to dislike it.What an awful post. Patchface Is AA Reborn, Ser Hippie, Drogon's Personal Trainer and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTalon Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Because I read the books after Season One means myself and the others like me aren't "real" fans?I'd be interested to see what criteria you use to make your decisions, so please, feel free to share it with us phonies, so we may change our ways and earn your approval, and thus be deemed "real". What good would it do now, that bird has flown. I´m not the kind of guy who enjoys rubbing that in... much. :lmao: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fakko Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I did not interpret the second assassination at Harrenhal as dark comedy, but as a demonstration of deadly skill. In a sudden moment of chaos Arya finds Jaqen and tells him the identity of his second target and implores him to eliminate him immediately. No planning. No subtlety. He does so. On a target rushing through an area crowded with witnesses. Without being noticed; within 100 feet of Tywin Lannister. That is a highly skilled assassin. That's what this "non-real fan" took from that scene. Mr Fixit, SummerSong, Frost_Nocturne and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drogon's Personal Trainer Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 That's nice. Then read their analysis instead. If anyone thinks that is true to the spirit of the books, I question their reading of the books and I have no interest in their analysis because it is coming from someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about.Linda, with the greatest respect, that's not fair. There will be as many interpretations and analyses of the source material as there are readers. Is X's analysis more valid than Y's? And if so, why? I enjoy the show and the books as two separate entities, and I have issues with both at times, to be honest - both as someone who has been watching TV dramas for 45 years and someone who has read widely in all literary genres for 50 years. But I prefer to concentrate on the good rather than the bad. And what I would think 'good', someone else would think 'bad' and vice versa - there is no eternal truth here. It's just opinions. But of course, if we didn't all differ, there'd be no need for a forum, so I would also like to take the opportunity of thanking you and Ran for building this place and welcoming so many people with differing opinions. It's a credit to you. conny, Lany Freelove Cassandra, SummerSong and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 My guess is the people who discovered ASOIAF only after the TV show started are the ones who like it, probably because they are more used to standard TV fare, while all the real fans tend to dislike it.I'd be willing to bet you are very wrong on this. I, and a lot of my FB friends, first read GoT in 1996 and most of us loved this episode too. (most of them are posting on this board too, and have been for many many years) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lany Freelove Cassandra Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Duplicate post Edited May 7, 2012 by Ser Lany Cassandra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 I don't see the point of the "real" fan thing, but lets suppose BlackTalon misspoke rather than meant to imply that some people are more "real" fans than others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) So if people disagree with you they don't know what they're talking about? Almost every analysis I read favours this episode, the main aim of an episode is to entertain which is succesful it seems. I don't agree that making up plots will ruin the main story at all... I always wondered why Dany never had her dragons stolen when her khalasar was so small and weak in the books. The only thing I agree with is the part about Amory dying, but I didn't mind it because I enjoyed it, overall.The main aim of an episode is to entertain?Well, why not send in the clowns then? Or a parade of naked women, or maybe a string of gruesome killings? I am sure that will entertain. I am not sure it is the sort of entertainment the show should be.And yes, no one stole those dragons despite Dany being in a dangerous situation. Maybe you should stop and think about why that might be?If you just like the episode and don't care about the changes or don't care about it being true to the spirit of the books, fine. That's a different approach to watching and it is valid too. But I am going to question someone's knowledge and understanding of the books if they claim that this episode was entirely true to the spirit of the books. I am going to question them as a reader.That said, each person can obviously take different things away from a book and focus on different aspects of the books. But there are scenes in this episode that I cannot imagine ever having been written by GRRM. And I don't see how anyone else would think so. Edited May 7, 2012 by Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowRaven Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) Didn't really like this episode because of the many changes from the books..... Edited May 7, 2012 by ShadowRaven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I gave this episode a 9. My favorite of the season so far.If you just want a bit of action, well, whatever.Nice straw-man there. If we are not as wedded to the source material as you, we just want "a bit of action?".And yes, no one stole those dragons despite Dany being in a dangerous situation. Maybe you should stop and think about why that might be?Why don't you explain it to us? And also whether or not that is a good or a bad point of the source material? Or is Dany's Qarth journey as described by GRRM above critique in this aspect? Edited May 7, 2012 by Hyper Frost_Nocturne 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogorath Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 For my own part I have said from the start that I am completely uninterested in watching or commenting on this show just on its own merits. I am only interested in how well -- or not -- it adapts the books. We watch the show as fans of the books, we review it as fans of the books. That's it.This does not mean it has to follow the letter, but it better follow the spirit of the story and stay true to the characters. The start to episode 6 is an example of excellent adaptation which compresses and changes but stays true to the story and the characters.If you just want a bit of action, well, whatever.An honest question: Why? What's the point of reviewing only in that context? Mr Fixit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 An honest question: Why? What's the point of reviewing only in that context?What is not the point of it? I honestly cannot see why that is a question. We are, first and foremost, fans of the books and we watch it as an adaptation. To review it in any other context would be pointless for us. I am not interested in the TV-show on its own merits, it cannot exist on its own merits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
End of Disc One Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Plenty of us here were fans of the books way before the HBO series was even optioned, and we enjoyed this episode just fine. At least I did. I thought it was the best one yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 Keep it polite, folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Linda Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Well, I don't consider it an hour well spent. So, for me something was harmed: my enjoyment. I watch to see the story I love on TV. No other reason.GRRM...has a very different personality to Alan Moore, who is pretty unique in many ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogorath Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 What is not the point of it? I honestly cannot see why that is a question. We are, first and foremost, fans of the books and we watch it as an adaptation. To review it in any other context would be pointless for us. I am not interested in the TV-show on its own merits, it cannot exist on its own merits.I am a book reader, and first and foremost a fan of the book. Yet, I can both watch and review in its own context. I do not expect everyone to divorce it from the books as well as I do, but there are still many things to talk and review about the series and story that are not limited to the books. For example, acting, cinematography, etc.I was curious why you are reviewing it only in the context of adaptation. Your response seems to be there is nothing else to talk about, which is factually untrue, even if you are uninterested in it. If that's what you are meaning to say -- and I have no idea -- then just say "it doesn't interest me except how it relates to the books." I'm not going to say that's true for me, but hey, at least I understand your point of view.A statement like "it cannot exist on its own merits" - I'm not sure what to say to that. It's not clear to me what you mean, but the reality is: it does exist, and plenty of people (and many who read the books previously) are fine with judging it on its own merits.You seem to be denying the idea that different people can look at things different ways. I may not agree with your point of view, but I acknowledge that you have and am curious to understand it. Your comments make it sound like you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot. Drogon's Personal Trainer, SummerSong, Mr Fixit and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michaelj Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 The main aim of an episode is to entertain?Well, why not send in the clowns then? Or a parade of naked women, or maybe a string of gruesome killings? I am sure that will entertain. I am not sure it is the sort of entertainment the show should be.And yes, no one stole those dragons despite Dany being in a dangerous situation. Maybe you should stop and think about why that might be?If you just like the episode and don't care about the changes or don't care about it being true to the spirit of the books, fine. That's a different approach to watching and it is valid too. But I am going to question someone's knowledge and understanding of the books if they claim that this episode was entirely true to the spirit of the books. I am going to question them as a reader.That said, each person can obviously take different things away from a book and focus on different aspects of the books. But there are scenes in this episode that I cannot imagine ever having been written by GRRM. And I don't see how anyone else would think so.By entertainment I mean't a good storyline that draws the viewer in, I for one do not find clowns or hordes of naked women entertaining, but rather annoying. :P Whats the point of having an episode to the letter if the average viewer doesn't understand it and he grows bored? Many people including myself who have read the books appreciate that this episode was highly entertaining and drew me in and made me sit on the edge of my chair.Yes I do wonder why that was? At the time she was hardly a threat IMO. She had a small host and no real allies backing her up, since the death of Drogo. Perhaps everyone just had a lot of respect for her? I'm not really sure tbh. But I see this as an exciting move from HBO, perhaps a whatif scenario if GRRM did include it in the books.Nobody is doubting that. It wasn't 100% true to the spirit of the book agreed.I read somewhere that GRRM personally praised this episode. I don't know how true this source is but if it is true then GRRM isn't complaining either way. :PPS: I do generally respect what you and your friend have done for ASOIAF, with the wiki, site and forums, its just I'm in a disagreement with the way you analysis went. Obviously everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as it isn't labeled as a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogorath Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Well, I don't consider it an hour well spent. So, for me something was harmed: my enjoyment. I watch to see the story I love on TV. No other reason.GRRM...has a very different personality to Alan Moore, who is pretty unique in many ways.Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 I think our reviews, past and present, have made it pretty plain that we don't expect an exact adaptation of the text, nor do we desire it. But an exact recreation of its spirit and voice doesn't seem far-fetched to ask for. Spirit and voice doesn't require exact scene translations, but it does need understanding where the story is coming from and trying to present it in that light. Often times, they succeed. Sometimes... not so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyphillip Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) I don't rest my feelings on Myrcella or anything like that -- but we do try to be complete in noting all changes, that included (and as greywolf says, that actually helps define Myrcella...)But the Lorch scene is bad TV, badly staged and badly written, with a humorous tone that's I'll-befitting the spirit of the novels. Can you imagine GRRM having written that scene and playing it for a laugh as the show did? I can't, and so it fails both tests, badly. I find it unaccountable how so few critics have noticed the lazy, dissonant writing of the Lorch scene (and the one before it, for that matter), but in any case, it felt symptomatic of an episode that leaned too heavily on contrivances that would get Mad Men or Breaking Bad or Justified taken to the woodshed by critics if scenes that were as contrived and clumsy made it onto those shows.And again, there was some terrific writing in there, which is why the unevenness is all the more disappointing.In the end, it's a sea of opinions. Read the ones that speak to you, and hang the rest.Although I can agree with the fact that the tone of the Lorch scene didn't fit in with the novel, I personally didn't find it particularly egregious, or an example of bad television writing. I didn't even realize that other guards were not chasing after Arya until after I read the episode analysis. I can easily overlook this as sometimes in life, things don't happen in the ways that we perceive would be the "right" way.As far as bringing a bit of humor in dark and dangerous situations, I see this all of the time in shows like Breaking Bad. The incident of dissolving bodies in the bathtub comes to mind immediately.The show is intense. It needs moments of humor to break up the peril these characters find themselves in. I completely understand why the writers approached this scene in the manner they did. It also helps establish just what kind of assassin that Jaqen H'ghar is. Reading about this character gave me the impression that his abilities were almost super human. This scene helps establish that.I don't think this is the best scene of the episode, but I personally didn't find it distracting, and found a lot to enjoy in watching it. Edited May 7, 2012 by Howdyphillip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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