How would you rate episode 206?

[Sun]

Same scene, more or less. Even the note is included. So are both scenes good, or is Martin just as bad as you say the writers of the episode are?

Both scenes are equally mediocre, in that they are equally silly. And just as the book scene didn't take away from the overall quality of the Arya chapters, neither did the TV scene take away from the overall quality of this episode. "The Old God And The New" is a fantastic hour of drama television.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Sun

[Lord of Cheese]

Well all people saying the episode sucks, the fact that more people have voted 9 and 10 than all the scores combined shows the episode was a huge success.

Would many of those ppl be those who didnt read the books? I have two friends who havent read but do watch and they like the show even though im fuming about the adaptation. If they only knew how much better a story the books present they would think the same as me. GRRM is a better story teller than D&D. they should let the books tell it. No reason for the changes.

[Sun]

Would many of those ppl be those who didnt read the books? I have two friends who havent read but do watch and they like the show even though im fuming about the adaptation. If they only knew how much better a story the books present they would think the same as me. GRRM is a better story teller than D&D. they should let the books tell it. No reason for the changes.

Can't speak for the many, but I rated the episode a 9, and I've certainly read all the books.

[Mr Fixit]

I've read the books as well (and they are my favorite fantasy series of all time), and I am perfectly fine with the TV changes. Going into the show, I knew there would be changes, and I DON'T CARE. As long as the spirit of Martin's books is preserved, as long as acting and production values are stratospherically good, I wouldn't care if D&D introduced flying robots into the story.

I suggest people here go read GRRM's piece on his adaptation of Zelazny's story in Twilight Zone.

I too enjoy TWoP's forums very much. They are critical as well (as they should be), but look at the show first and foremost, without the constant droning comparison to the books.

I find it even more interesting how some of the most fanatical book purists don't actually know what's in the books! So they screamed about Loras and Renly being gay, Stannis having sex with Melisandre, Arya not naming Tywin while he's in Harrenhal, Arya escaping through a bunch of Lannister men, etc, etc, when all that was in the books as well.

If they can't be bothered to remember that, I'm not gonna take their opinions very seriously.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mr Fixit

[Michaelj]

Ive also read all the books, I imagine most people who voted have otherwise why would they be on avforum dedicated to the books? I loved this episode despite the changes. The main aim of tv is to enjoy it, not compare it incentlaly to the books.. It's still following the main story and thats all that bothers me. IRS fun. I also prefer Twop over these forums, they are good fans and like or dislike the show for the right reasons.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Michaelj

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

Ive also read all the books, I imagine most people who voted have otherwise why would they be on avforum dedicated to the books? I loved this episode despite the changes. The main aim of tv is to enjoy it, not compare it incentlaly to the books.. It's still following the main story and thats all that bothers me. IRS fun. I also prefer Twop over these forums, they are good fans and like or dislike the show for the right reasons.

I applaud the honesty of this post. I do think all of us are guilty sometimes of taking things too seriously on these episodes threads - I'm as guilty as everyone else. The TWoP forums also seem to be (in line with the site's original purpose) an area in which things aren't taken too seriously. People just enjoy the show and can still poke gentle fun at some of the more ludicrous aspects. I find it comical, for instance, that people can object to magical shadow assassins, yet accept a girl walking through fire to hatch dragon eggs as an everyday occurrence almost ;) Each to his own.

As for my stance - here we go. Some people have asked why certain episodes of the present series can be given high marks in the poll. I can't speak for anyone else, nor would I have the arrogance to do so, but for my own part I vote between 8-10 purely on entertainment value to me personally, PLUS, I am voting in context. When I know it's HBO, I know it's gloriously glossy, flashy and deliciously trashy TV (I mean that in the best possible way - a guilty pleasure). Always visually gorgeous, always takes liberties, gratuitous tits, the compulsory lesbian scene to get the guys salivating, vivid mindless violence, etc. etc., but that's HBO. I'm going to judge it within its context, not compare it to Downton Abbey or superlative "serious" - ahem! dramas of the past on both sides of the Atlantic. The same applies to the books. They are enjoyable genre fiction, not Shakespeare or classics. I judge them within their context too. I love the major characters; adore the world-building; forgive the occasional descent into soap opera, and constant repetitions.

One thing I have to say in praise of the show. After seeing series 1, I read all the books in a genre I would never have tried in a million years. Sci-fi and fantasy never interested me for years (apart from the obligatory LOTR reading that we all go through as teenagers - and while held as a classic, personally that bored me senseless). I am sure that George must be pleased to know that the HBO show has helped him sell even more books, because I'm not the only one who was turned on to the addiction that is ASOIAF by the TV series. Now, like everyone else, I am anxiously awaiting the release of WoW. I know there will be parts - like in all the books - that will make me roll my eyes; even giggle at the odd absurdity. These little lapses don't spoil my enjoyment of the books, they actually add to it. What a dork Quentyn was thinking he could tame dragons, but how gloriously, touchingly heroic he was to try. The books have peaks and troughs - far more peaks, so I keep reading.

The show is the same. Do I really want to spoil my overall enjoyment by analysing how ravens get from A to B, or do I just want to watch an overall story developing, and embrace it, complete with its flaws for the addictive entertainment it is?

So, yep - I think our own personal expectations come into this. Those who have made George into one of the Seven, will be far stricter in their criticism. I know where they're coming from. My passion is Roman history and I swore at the TV screen during the first two episodes of 'Rome' and stopped watching. Then, I gave it another go and tried to forget all my training in ancient history, and just watched it as a story. It improved for me then and I could see the good bits.

I don't hold George to be a god. I thoroughly enjoy his saga, and I know that without it there wouldn't be a TV series at all, but I suppose because I'm not as passionate as other devotees, I don't judge with the same harsh criteria. I don't hold HBO to be immortal either. I know what I'll be getting, and judge accordingly.

Just my two penn-orth.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Drogon's Personal Trainer

[Greywolf2375]

Oh, really? See below:

Tadco26, in this thread:

From Incesticide, in this thread:

From Linda, in this thread:

From Ravenhair, in the Rate Episode 201 thread:

From SFA-OK in the Rate Episode 202 thread:

There are other examples. Plenty of them.

And none of those said they needed a verbatim adaption - which is what the claim is, that "purists" or "book readers" require that it be 100% verbatim. Please do find claims that require this to be a word for word, scene for scene adaption. They don't exist. What does exist is criticism about elements or scenes that do not work for that viewer. If they work for you, great - comment as you will, if they don't, great - comment as you will.

But please stop the "OMG - IT'S AN ADAPTION, IT WON'T BE A COPY" because no one is asking for that, most likely not even the owner of the story.

[Lord Hodor]

People who don`t like Obama are racists, people who dont think the wars were a good idea are crazy leftists, people who dont support gay marriage are homofobes and people who dont like this episode are book purists.

Works everytime dosent it?

[Mr Fixit]

And none of those said they needed a verbatim adaption - which is what the claim is, that "purists" or "book readers" require that it be 100% verbatim. Please do find claims that require this to be a word for word, scene for scene adaption. They don't exist.

Hey man, just go read around this site. There are dozens upons dozens of such examples. Every single little change gets lambasted. Of course, there is usually some silly explanation that makes it seem like the poster has a rational reason for disagreeing, some seeming justification for why a scene is objectively bad. Like, I dunno, Tywin raising his voice and "smiling", or Myrcella crying, someone was about to give up on the show becuse Brienne was too pretty (and you know, her ugliness is a big part of who she is, therefore if she's not ugly enough, they are destroying her character!), I've read many harp against Theon killing Rodrik because it's not it the books, not to mention the furor surrounding the missing dragons (even though it happened at the very end of the episode which makes it hard to critique one way or the other until we've had a chance to see how it plays out next week).

Edited to add: Oh yeah, many voiced their adamant displeasure regarding Jaime's dyslexia. Why? Well, it wasn't in the books obviously... Examples are endless really.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mr Fixit

[Dragon greyscale]

Hey man, just go read around this site. There are dozens upons dozens of such examples. Every single little change gets lambasted. Of course, there is usually some silly explanation that makes it seem like the poster has a rational reason for disagreeing, some seeming justification for why a scene is objectively bad. Like, I dunno, Tywin raising his voice and "smiling", or Myrcella crying, someone was about to give up on the show becuse Brienne was too pretty (and you know, her ugliness is a big part of who she is, therefore if she's not ugly enough, they are destroying her character!), I've read many harp against Theon killing Rodrik because it's not it the books, not to mention the furor surrounding the missing dragons (even though it happened at the very end of the episode which makes it hard to critique one way or the other until we've had a chance to see how it plays out next week).

Edited to add: Oh yeah, many voiced their adamant displeasure regarding Jaime's dyslexia. Why? Well, it wasn't in the books obviously... Examples are endless really.

I agree. It is difficult to maintain that a straw man argument is held up against you if you can see snippets of it everywhere.

The reasoning is something like this: "I'm not saying it should be ad verbatim 100%... I'm just saying that change x is bad because it would "never happen/has not happened in the books. and change y too. and change z... and change xx... etc. etc."

Compare that to this "I'm not saying women are inferior to men, they're just weaker than men, and less intelligent, and less competent..."

See how every following remark contradicts the first statement? Maybe it would help to highlight some of the positive changes as well. To be fair, most people here are reasonable. I'm talking about those few who think this is the worst piece of television in the history of mankind.

[pleonasm]

And none of those said they needed a verbatim adaption - which is what the claim is, that "purists" or "book readers" require that it be 100% verbatim. Please do find claims that require this to be a word for word, scene for scene adaption. They don't exist. What does exist is criticism about elements or scenes that do not work for that viewer. If they work for you, great - comment as you will, if they don't, great - comment as you will. But please stop the "OMG - IT'S AN ADAPTION, IT WON'T BE A COPY" because no one is asking for that, most likely not even the owner of the story.[\b]

Amen. While there has been some nitpicking at the end of the day, I think most of just want a smart compelling and well crafted story. My biggest complaints are typically rooted in the writing of the adaption. Though they often have an inspired idea or two (Tyrion's Myrcella proposals with the Small Council or Winterfell this week), too often they have sacrificed nuance and subtely in favor of tits, guts and poorly thought through scenes.

See my example below:

Lets take Ygritte and Jon from this week. Clearly they had a couple of objectives. Introduce Ygritte. Add some action to provide some energy to the scene. And setup the relationship down the road. That all makes sense. But the scene as crafted is poorly put together.

Why on earth would Halfhand leave Jon to the execution of a Wilding? Why the inane dialouge of how a WIlding will never tell you anything to then having that same Wilding spill on just about everything? Is the she liar? Would this not warrant some further investigation? And then they just leave Jon to finish her off - which she then manages to slip away - I think I have seen that scene more than a 100 times in movies and television.

A simple rewrite would have the Watch decide to kill the scouting party they have spotted. They do so and then a fourth (Ygritte) is spotted returing with firewood or something. Halfhand orders Jon to take her out and he gives chase (you have your action sequence), and is able to snare her. Now they are alone. Jon discovers she is a women, a pretty one (although she should be much more dirty... trust me, with that hair and complexion, it won't be a problem) and you proceed with his struggle with what to do with her. It gets Ygritte and Jon together logically and doesn't require some clunky exposition or bizarre contrivances.

I know it may appear I'm nitpicking, but its these clunky scenes which are maddening. They feel like first drafts or writer inexperience. In a 10 episode season there should be way less of those and much more of the opening Winterfell sequence.

Edited May 9, 2012 by pleonasm

[Silverx2]

this episode was very hit and miss for me.

Loved everything in harrenhal

Hated everything in Qarth

the Kings landing scenes were good, the sansa attack was great until the hound portion, it didnt look very realistice, with wierd camera work kind of ruined it. The hound was great, the attackers great, and sansa great but the actual camera work ruined it.

The rob stuff wasn't horrible

The winterfel stuff was good.

"Where are my dragons" was one of the worst lines in the series, this episodes dany stuff just felt really poorly written, but the spice merchant was good. I'm not sure if this is the writing or emila clarke's fault.

Kind of middle of the road for me.

[gordonah]

I loved it. 9.

Harenhal scenes and the riot were particularly enjoyable.

I've read a lot of the more negative comments, and the low ratings, but I thoroughly enjoyed it all. I think I have managed to mentally divorce the series from the books, so am not bother by the deviations.

[Cuthbert Allgood]

Book reader here, I gave it a 9, rated this as the highest this season so far. I'm watching the show with a friend who didn't read the books, so that probably helps me take it easy with diversions from the books. Just some random stuff after reading some posts in this thread:

* Myrcella crying: Absolutely nitpicking her some you folks. Sure, they might have her smiling and laughing to show "her character" but this way it's much better to show non book readers (who has no idea where is this Dorne place, is that far?) that she is only going there because Tyrion thinks it must be done / it is not someplace close etc.. If she seemed not minding the situation at all, Cersei would look to be just bitcin' for the sake of it.

* Littlefinger / Arya : For me, that scene was fun to watch but not exciting as I know Arya's storyline and I was comfortable knowing she won't get caught. My non book reader friend was all "omg omg he will recognize her.. omg look he knows it Arya!!!!"

* Lorch / Arya / Jaqen: Forget what ı said. I knew Arya won't be caught yet I for got that for a second and was really worried about the situation when he was running off to tell Tywin. That death scene wasn't funny at all.

* Robb/ Jeyne / Catelyn: Was happy that they are reminding people that Robb is promised to marry someone else. They should keep reminding to make the way to Red Wedding.

* Riot: Loved those scenes too, I just wished they had introduced in High Septon previous episodes to make his death matter more. Church will be a player in future seasons so they could have made the septon a bit more important imo.

* Dragon Stealing: LOVE it. I was bugged with noone ever trying to kill Dany and steal dragons -would love if someone explain it to me with something other than "Qarth culture" - also a nice way to get her into HotU.

[Tadco26]

BoldAsYouPlease, on 08 May 2012 - 10:02 PM, said:

If by "perfect" you mean "exact word-for-word fidelity", you're right. But that's a strawman - I've yet to see any critic of the show demand that the book be followed to the letter, only that the changes make sense and prove worthwhile.

Oh, really? See below:

Tadco26, in this thread:

It really is turning more and more into a story inspired by the books more so than trying to adapt them faithfully. I was hoping that season 2 would try to be at least as faithful as season 1 if not more so, but it seems the opposite is the case.

How in the world is my quote demanding a 100% translation of the books? I quite clearly state that season 1 was overall a very good adaptation and it wasn't close to a 100% translation. There have been numerous scenes from this season that I thought were great adaptations even in this episode such as the riot and Theon's scenes. Just because all of the people quoted had problems with some of the scenes in no way implies that they expected every scene to be word for word with the books. I do think that this season has been less faithful to the books than last season, and I don't really see how anyone can argue otherwise. Whether you like those changes or not is a different arguement based primarily on opinion.

[rahne]

I like last weeks better. This week some of the scences were too forced. Theon scene was great ,and the scene with Sansa and the Housd. Loved it

[int11]

Amazing episode! I love TV-Ygritte already … and the scene with Tyrion and Joffrey was astonishing.

[Silverjaime]

Did out a reply but the board ate it!

So - gave it a 6; too many things not great - Robb, Dany, Jon - their storylines have been chopped and changed too much for my liking; LF still popping up all over Westeros to have yet another scheming chat with another character; Arya and Tywin - great acting but nonsensical scenes - he would hardly even think of a child servant as human never mind confide in her.

Liked the Winterfell part - powerful scenes very well acted; the riot scenes - very good, Sophie was great, and thank goodness the Hound got a couple of words and some action; and Tyrion and Joffrey interaction never ceases to amuse!

Overall if it was just a TV show it would be good. But I think the increasing departures from the novels are changing the characters, their journeys and their motivations, and setting up problems for future continuity.

Also Jaqen/Lorch...WTF?? Why make the killing funny? Where is scary magical Jaqen?

Edited May 9, 2012 by Silverjaime

[Eira Seren]

I applaud the honesty of this post. I do think all of us are guilty sometimes of taking things too seriously on these episodes threads - I'm as guilty as everyone else. The TWoP forums also seem to be (in line with the site's original purpose) an area in which things aren't taken too seriously. People just enjoy the show and can still poke gentle fun at some of the more ludicrous aspects. I find it comical, for instance, that people can object to magical shadow assassins, yet accept a girl walking through fire to hatch dragon eggs as an everyday occurrence almost ;) Each to his own.

As for my stance - here we go. Some people have asked why certain episodes of the present series can be given high marks in the poll. I can't speak for anyone else, nor would I have the arrogance to do so, but for my own part I vote between 8-10 purely on entertainment value to me personally, PLUS, I am voting in context. When I know it's HBO, I know it's gloriously glossy, flashy and deliciously trashy TV (I mean that in the best possible way - a guilty pleasure). Always visually gorgeous, always takes liberties, gratuitous tits, the compulsory lesbian scene to get the guys salivating, vivid mindless violence, etc. etc., but that's HBO. I'm going to judge it within its context, not compare it to Downton Abbey or superlative "serious" - ahem! dramas of the past on both sides of the Atlantic. The same applies to the books. They are enjoyable genre fiction, not Shakespeare or classics. I judge them within their context too. I love the major characters; adore the world-building; forgive the occasional descent into soap opera, and constant repetitions.

One thing I have to say in praise of the show. After seeing series 1, I read all the books in a genre I would never have tried in a million years. Sci-fi and fantasy never interested me for years (apart from the obligatory LOTR reading that we all go through as teenagers - and while held as a classic, personally that bored me senseless). I am sure that George must be pleased to know that the HBO show has helped him sell even more books, because I'm not the only one who was turned on to the addiction that is ASOIAF by the TV series. Now, like everyone else, I am anxiously awaiting the release of WoW. I know there will be parts - like in all the books - that will make me roll my eyes; even giggle at the odd absurdity. These little lapses don't spoil my enjoyment of the books, they actually add to it. What a dork Quentyn was thinking he could tame dragons, but how gloriously, touchingly heroic he was to try. The books have peaks and troughs - far more peaks, so I keep reading.

The show is the same. Do I really want to spoil my overall enjoyment by analysing how ravens get from A to B, or do I just want to watch an overall story developing, and embrace it, complete with its flaws for the addictive entertainment it is?

So, yep - I think our own personal expectations come into this. Those who have made George into one of the Seven, will be far stricter in their criticism. I know where they're coming from. My passion is Roman history and I swore at the TV screen during the first two episodes of 'Rome' and stopped watching. Then, I gave it another go and tried to forget all my training in ancient history, and just watched it as a story. It improved for me then and I could see the good bits.

I don't hold George to be a god. I thoroughly enjoy his saga, and I know that without it there wouldn't be a TV series at all, but I suppose because I'm not as passionate as other devotees, I don't judge with the same harsh criteria. I don't hold HBO to be immortal either. I know what I'll be getting, and judge accordingly.

Just my two penn-orth.

well, i guess my expectations are kindof high i have to confess. it's good entertainment and good tv, like spartacus; it's also good writing and story, like deadwood. at some level, for me at least, the series has surpassesed what i think of as tv. in fact, i don't watch as much tv as i used to, because a lot of it (even some of my old standbys) don't seem that great. for this series, i'm not just in it for the entertainment.

and, super-nerd that i am, it's the same way, for me, with the novels. they are surpassingly entertaining, yes. they are also as powerful at times as what we deem 'literature'. there's as much in here as my favorite victorian novels. i enjoy (from an entertainment and critical standpoint) GRRM'S series as much as i do shakespeare, and tolstoy and a.s. byatt. i can read these with a pencil in hand (actually, i may as well confess, i actually have, and there's plenty to find). sure, it's popular fiction. but it's very fine writing as well, and the questions it asks of us readers are often just as compelling as the ones we find in 'literary' works.

still has plenty of guilty pleasure moments, though!

the purpose of art is to inform and delight ~ horace

Edited May 10, 2012 by Eira Seren

[conny]

I found a picture of Sean Bean sitting on the Iron Throne in my tv guide. Since I like the actor very much I started watching the series. I never ever had any interest in fantasy whatsoever. BUT after the first season I bought all four books and started reading, then finished and was supposed to wait for another two months until volume 5 came out on paperback. (at least here in Germany) Not possible. So I bought DwD as hardcover, which nearly broke off my wrists. But it was worth it. I read all 5 volumes within 7 weeks, bought the bluerays and could hardly wait for the second season.

And now I enjoy the show and don't mind the changes. I consider it impossible to stick to the books too close, because it is far too complicated, too voluminous, involving too many characters etc.

I am afraid that too many viewers would be hopelessly lost and drop out.

Just compare the annex explaining the characters/houses involved. Grows bigger with every book ;)