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How would you rate episode 206?  

451 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

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    • 7
      48
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    • 9
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    • 10
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I've come up with a test to see whether criticisms are based on a dislike of any sort of change or because they genuinely judge the merit of the show.

Whenever we have a complaint we should ask ourselves: can I back my complaint up with arguments that

a) don't use examples that we haven't seen on the show and

b ) don't go into spoilers about the books?

if both are affirmative, people can honestly say that they don't mind change for change's sake but that they distinguish good deviations from bad deviations. It's about the show's internal logic.

Example: Is the stealing of Dany's dragons problematic/out of character/unbelievable WITH THE INFORMATION FROM THE TV SHOW SO FAR? (sorry for caps rant; can't italicize on Iphone). You can't dislike it because the Qartheen were welcoming to her (which they were in the books but not in the show). You also can't dislike the addition out of fear of the ommision of HotU. No viewer knows about this yet.

Edited by Dragon greyscale

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gave it a 10 cause they finally gave us some wonderful San/San moments!!!!!!!!

but ygritte and tyrion and theon and joff helped. they were amazing!

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Some things that did not make alot of sense:

What happened to the 200-300 men that Rodrik took to Torrhens Square?

This one bugged me, as well. One could wank up an explanation, I suppose - he left them at Torrhen's Square and rode back by himself to either let Winterfell know what had happened or warn them of the danger - but this is, indeed, not well-explained.

How did the mob in Kings Landing manage to rip a mans arm from his body, and why did they do it, are they cannibals?

This isn't a plot hole, and there are examples in history of men being torn apart by angry mobs. It was a bit silly, but I don't see the problem here.

Why did Myrcella have to cry when the books specify that she doesn´t?

This is, again, not a plot hole. The showrunners are trying to up the drama of Myrcella's departure, and Cersei's anger at Tyrion over it. Having Myrcella cry does that, and doesn't affect the overall plot in any significant way.

How is it possible that Amory Lorch managed to send a raven to the wrong castle? Why wasn´t the ravens handled by a Maester? Did Lorch just grab a random raven and sent a sensitive message to whereever that raven might land?

I suppose he might have told the Maester to send it to the wrong place? Who knows? It might be a minor plot hole, but it's not actually important.

When Amory Lorch chased Arya, how come they ran through a yard crowded with Lannister soldiers and noone grabbed Arya. Why didn´t Lorch call out for the men to grab her?

He's not too bright?

When Ygritte escaped from Jon Snow, why did he chase her? He wasn´t going to kill her, he´d shown that already. He couldn´t take her to Qhorin because Qhorin would kill her. So was he just gonna tie her up and keep her as a prisoner and forget all about the Halfhand and his own mission for the Nights Watch?

I think you are conflating book Jon, who explicitly decides not to kill Ygritte, with TV show Jon, who is nervous and flubs the physical act. This is not a plot hole, it just shows that Jon is not thinking very clearly, which is totally plausible. Jon's actions don't make sense because he's not acting rationally.

How come Qhorin couldn´t find Jon and Ygritte, the man is a master tracker, the best ranger of them all and an expert survivalist, but he couldn´t track Jon and Ygritte in the snow?

Who's to say he will not find them next episode?

How come Robb Stark is talking to Talisa in the middle of their camp. Everyone can see that he´s falling in love with her and "everyone" would include all of his bannermen, most importantly the Freys who might be upset about Robb drooling over someone other than the girl he has promised to marry.

The Freys don't care if Robb has sex with some nurse. An infatuation is meaningless as long as Robb is willing to follow through on his oath to the Freys.

When Catelyn came back to camp, how come Robb didn´t ask about what happened to Renly and who Brienne was? That would be the most logical thing to ask, especially if they´d heard rumours about Renlys death. Instead Robb just casually introduces Cat to the girl he has a crush on.

Numerous possibilities: this may not be the first time Robb and Catleyn have met since her return. Alternately, Robb doesn't want to speak of sensitive matters in front of a girl who he thinks might be a spy; they talk about what happened at Renly's camp in private and off-screen.

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I have, of course, thoroughly enjoyed the series but this was first time I really thought its excelled. Brilliant episode, I loved every scene. I don't mind any of the deviations, they don't change much in the long run.

My first 10 of the series.

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To the question why Jon ran after Ygritte

Put yourself in the situation. Even if you don't want to kill her, you would run after her.

It's funny how some people here always act as if everyone always knows exactly what he does but you guys don't even think about what you write.

Edited by Rob the God

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A solid 9.

One of the best episodes so far.

The sack of Winterfell and the beheading of ser Rodrick were brilliant.

The scenes north of the Wall were great - have been looking forward to see Ygritte and I think the actress is doing fine. I see her and Kit having a good chemistry on screen. The dialogue between Jon and Qhorin was also great... and we get to see Ghost :) - together with Summer and Shaggydog.

The other two highlights were the riot of KL and the scenes with Arya and Tywin - awesome as always.

I really miss Varys.

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Really loved most of this episode because they're finally starting to feel more comfortable deviating from the books to tell a better story. Also a lot of long character-driven scenes that help this episode feel less rushed and random than many others. Really hope they do more and more of this as time goes on because the reality is a word for word slavish translation of the book to screen just won't work. Only scene I wasn't crazy about was Dany with the spice master. Meh. I give it a solid 8+, close to a 9.

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I hope they do so much that the people that can't value the best hour on TV every week because Stannis stood 1.5 feet away from Davos when in the book he only stood 1.25 feet away stop watching, and episodes can be judged on what they should be judged on: Acting, pacing, locations, ENTERTAINMENT VALUE, not verbatim regurgitation of every detail of the book because EXACT ADAPTATIONS JUST DON'T HAPPEN!

You'll see Bigfoot riding on a Unicorn at the Loch Ness Monster's Birthday Party at Jim Morrison's house in Africa before you ever see a perfect book to TV/Movie adaptation.

If by "perfect" you mean "exact word-for-word fidelity", you're right. But that's a strawman - I've yet to see any critic of the show demand that the book be followed to the letter, only that the changes make sense and prove worthwhile. Things like Amory Lorch flopping in Lord Tywin's doorway like he's trying to draw a personal foul or Tywin discussing his son's learning disability and his father's personality with a serving girl or Littlefinger zipping to and fro to have a revealing talk with every major figure in the realm or a royal procession bedecked in jewels and finery marching on foot through the slums of the capital - yeah, stuff like that doesn't make sense and isn't worthwhile.

The source material is very strong - presumably that's why the producers decided to adapt it in the first place, not because they decided that the books were merely OK and could be punched-up by Hollywood scriptwriters. Changes for television are necessary and inevitable - but bad changes, or changes that make no sense, aren't necessary or inevitable and deserve to be criticized.

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The Arya/Lorch scene was another one that seemed unnecessarily rushed and silly. Pretty much an awful way for Jaqen to chalk up kill #2 (incidentally, Jaqen is almost completely wasted in this episode, which is also a shame). Arya snatching the message was beyond stupid and reckless and seemed like a contrivance to get the scene going. In the end, one genuinely bad scene wasn't enough to ruin the episode for me.

I actually liked Lorch falling at Tywin's feet, that was great. But I agree about Arya taking the message, it doesn't make any sense. She's already read the message, Tywin has already seen the message, there is no need for her to take it with her, especially grasping it in her hand in public.

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badly staged television is badly staged. No one can come up with a credible reason why Arya can run around freely through a crowd of Lannister soldiers just milling about, Lorch chasing and shouting at her, and no one does anything, he doesn't think to maybe just tell one of those guards she keeps bumping into to grab her, etc. This was ill-considered. It was sloppy, lazy writing. That most people don't care is, I suppose, a blessing for them, but I noticed it right out and I was left wondering how in the world that scene made it to air without the tweaks needed to make it work properly.

Perhaps it was inspired by this scene, which I quote directly from an Arya chapter in the novels, wherein Arya is running through Harrenhall, chased by a knight, and no one stops her:

Weese never imagined she could read, though, so he never bothered to seal the messages he gave her. Arya peeked at them al , but they were never anything good, just stupid stuff sending this cart to the granary and that one to the armory. One was a demand for payment on a gambling debt, but the knight she gave it to couldn’t read. When she told him what it said he tried to hit her, but Arya ducked under the blow, snatched a silver-banded drinking horn off his saddle, and darted away. The knight roared and came after her, but she slid between two wayns, wove through a crowd of archers, and jumped a latrine trench. In his mail he couldn’t keep up. When she gave the horn to Weese, he told her that a smart little Weasel like her deserved a reward.

Same scene, more or less. Even the note is included. So are both scenes good, or is Martin just as bad as you say the writers of the episode are?

Edited by zippypoodle

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If by "perfect" you mean "exact word-for-word fidelity", you're right. But that's a strawman - I've yet to see any critic of the show demand that the book be followed to the letter, only that the changes make sense and prove worthwhile.

Oh, really? See below:

Tadco26, in this thread:

It really is turning more and more into a story inspired by the books more so than trying to adapt them faithfully. I was hoping that season 2 would try to be at least as faithful as season 1 if not more so, but it seems the opposite is the case.

From Incesticide, in this thread:

The series seems to be heading towards some drastic modifications of parts of the storyline - modifications to the world I imagined when I read the books. As such, from now on, I'll stick with the books.

From Linda, in this thread:

I am not interested in the TV-show on its own merits, it cannot exist on its own merits.

From Ravenhair, in the Rate Episode 201 thread:

Maybe a 3 or 4. If GRRM wanted to rewrite his books, he could have published AGOT alternate universe.

From SFA-OK in the Rate Episode 202 thread:

I gave it a 4. I'm almost done watching the show. I was hoping it would improve from last season but if anything, it's gotten worse. Unnecessary changes, changes for the worse, characters acting out of character from the book, etc.

There are other examples. Plenty of them.

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I've said many times that I'm not a purist when it comes to this show but, only ONCE I will complain about something not being added and it's the part during the riot when Cersei defends Tyrion's orders. I think it was pivotal because it showed that Cersei does have SOME sense, that she can be strong when she wants to be and that, first and foremost, she is a Lannister and no one messes with her family.

“Each of you will ride escort to a herald. Command the people to return to their homes. Any man found on the streets after the last peal of the evening bell will be killed.”

“Our place is beside the king,” Ser Meryn said, complacent.

Cersei reared up like a viper. “Your place is where my brother says it is,” she spit. “The Hand speaks with the King’s own voice, and disobedience is treason.”

Boros and Meryn exchanged a look. “Should we wear our cloaks, Your Grace?” Ser Boros asked.

“Go naked for all I care. It might remind the mob that you’re men. They’re like to have forgotten that after seeing the way you behaved out there in the streets.”

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First time I've ever given an episode a six. The episode is too marred by stupidity. Lorch's hokey death, Tywin's nonsensical complaints about that damned letter as if Lorch's stuck it in the wrong envelope.... it was very, very lazy writing. Which is a shame, because those first ten minutes stands up there with the any ten minutes in the series to date. Brilliant adaptation, the Theon bits.

Good lord! By the depth of your disappointment in the disappointing elements of the episode I'm surprised you gave the episode a pass mark. I was expecting a 5 or less from you. If I take Rotten Tomatoes as a reference point (for what constitutes a good score vs a bad score) 6/10 means the episode was still objectively good despite some terrible flaws. The way I read your review I got the impression that you think the episode was objectively bad despite some very good scenes.

I've just realised I can un-vote and re-vote. So I down-rated the episode to 7 (originally voted 8) and am surprised I'm only one point away from your score, given there are a number of points of difference between your and my impressions of the episode.

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I've said many times that I'm not a purist when it comes to this show but, only ONCE I will complain about something not being added and it's the part during the riot when Cersei defends Tyrion's orders. I think it was pivotal because it showed that Cersei does have SOME sense, that she can be strong when she wants to be and that, first and foremost, she is a Lannister and no one messes with her family.

“Each of you will ride escort to a herald. Command the people to return to their homes. Any man found on the streets after the last peal of the evening bell will be killed.”

“Our place is beside the king,” Ser Meryn said, complacent.

Cersei reared up like a viper. “Your place is where my brother says it is,” she spit. “The Hand speaks with the King’s own voice, and disobedience is treason.”

Boros and Meryn exchanged a look. “Should we wear our cloaks, Your Grace?” Ser Boros asked.

“Go naked for all I care. It might remind the mob that you’re men. They’re like to have forgotten that after seeing the way you behaved out there in the streets.”

Well the riot was effectively still going at the end of the episode. So there's a chance these lines will make it into Ep7, though I think it unlikely given the audience tension has passed, so there's probably not a lot of point in labouring over the imposition of a curfew.

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Gave it a 9 on first watch, but now I'm thinking 8. Reasons stated here and there by other folk, so I won't throw more carbon paper on the trash heap, but I want to say something:

I think it's funny I've been finding more thoughtful analysis of this show on forums where people haven't read the books (looking at you, TWoP). I can only ever take their opinions seriously when it comes to inconsistencies pertaining to what happens IN THE SHOW. Half the time people who've read the books and don't like a change will think up some damn creative (gotta give it to them) reasons the scene is utterly worthless. A wee bit funny how an episode goes over well with non-readers, yet a lot of readers can't stomach.

Edited by vntrlqst

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Oh, really? See below:

From Incesticide, in this thread:

The series seems to be heading towards some drastic modifications of parts of the storyline - modifications to the world I imagined when I read the books. As such, from now on, I'll stick with the books.

That you fail to understand plain English, and the concepts of cherry picking quotes and context is exasperating.

Nowhere did I state that I would like the adaptation to mimic the book word for word. Indeed, in the same post (or an earlier one) I quite clearly note that I am well aware that being a television series, things can and will change due to budgetary contraints, artistic license or what have you. In the post you quoted as well as in an earlier post I also stated that I enjoyed several of the changes, which in many cases I felt were superior to the books.

The reason that I will not be following the series any longer is simply that I, personally, overall am not enjoying it. I repeat, the reason that I will not be following the series any longer is simply that I, personally, overall am not enjoying it. While I do not require a word for word and scene by scene tv version of the novels, I do have personal limits beyond which I will not watch something, mainly because I am extremely cynical of the predilection for (practically all) series to introduce cliffhangers and plot twists so as to keep viewership high. Shameless cliffhangers annoy me intensely and strike me as patronising in that they assume that without them I will not continue watching. That is the reason why I disliked some of the changes that were made from the books. The changes I disliked (i.e. pointless sex and the Ross/LF scene in Ep 02, Craster knocking out Jon, Dany's Dragons getting stolen) were quite clearly introduced because they make "good" television. Other changes they made, I felt, were simply inferior to the option of keeping to the books (Jon and Ygritte's meeting, Yara's scripting, not casting Jojen and Meera), and those were chiefly the reason why I felt that the series was moving away from the world that I had imagined while reading the books and backstories.

Incidentally, I felt the same way about parts of A Dance With Dragons; Aegon, Tyrion's frustrating storyline, Dany in Mereen, what happens to Jon, Varys doing what he did in the epilogue - all of which struck me as being excessively cliffhanger like and led me to make a rather unprintable exclamation of frustration once I closed the book as opposed to my reaction to ASOS. My impression of the last book was that it was filled with pointless stalling and plot twists - so no, the books themselves aren't immune to my criticising them.

However, since GRR Martin is happy with the adaptation and this is his story, the only thing I have a right to do is to stop watching - which I have done.

Kindly, do not come off as being willfully ignorant, and purposefully misrepresent my point, in your zeal to prove your point that people unsatisfied with the television adaptation are all unyielding purists.

Edited by Incesticide

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Oh, really? See below:

Tadco26, in this thread:

From Incesticide, in this thread:

From Linda, in this thread:

From Ravenhair, in the Rate Episode 201 thread:

From SFA-OK in the Rate Episode 202 thread:

There are other examples. Plenty of them.

well, i suppose Linda's point may be that without the story in the books, there would be no tv show.

just wish i could express my analysis of the show without it being taken as negative criticism (there's a difference between being critical/analytical and criticism). though sometimes i am disappointed and give more negative criticism too. but surely i should be able to do so without being called a 'book purist' and without inadvertently upsetting people because i didn't like some stuff?

so --a genuine question, meant not in the spirit of eliciiting rage, but an honest conversation --why does it annoy some people so much if others complain that the show is different from the books?

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so --a genuine question, meant not in the spirit of eliciiting rage, but an honest conversation --why does it annoy some people so much if others complain that the show is different from the books?

Because one should realize that before the show was even produced there would be changes. And half the people that complain basically just spam the question "WHYWHYWHY" like a million other people haven't already asked. I'm just answering your question how it is presented: Why are people annoyed by complainers?

With that said, it's 100% fair to be critical of anything about any work of art/entertainment as long as you construct thoughtful criticism (which people on this site tend to do; go look at IMDB/Facebook for contrast).

Edited by vntrlqst

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zippy,

I'm fully aware of that scene. I have read the book a time or two.

She stole some knight's horn, it's not clear that his bellows of rage include, "Seize that girl!", and other than the "crowd of archers", whatever that is, it's not exactly plain that it's a jam-packed courtyard. Whereas the courtyard is jam-packed... and Amory Lorch, recently thoroughly reprimanded for screwing up, now believes Arya is filching letters from Lord Tywin's own table.

If that's not a cause to call Lannister soldiery to seize her rather than blundering about and watching them ignore her, I don't know what is.

Again, badly staged and conceived.

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Well all people saying the episode sucks, the fact that more people have voted 9 and 10 than all the scores combined shows the episode was a huge success.

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