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How would you rate episode 206?  

451 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      2
    • 2
      7
    • 3
      9
    • 4
      10
    • 5
      17
    • 6
      21
    • 7
      48
    • 8
      86
    • 9
      144
    • 10
      105


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The main aim of an episode is to entertain?

No, perish the thought. Personally I watch episodic fantasy television purely for educational purposes.

Edited by Sun

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Ah, I wasn't referring to dark humor. BB has plenty.

I meant the contrivances to make that scene happen, which was really all a matter of bad staging. I don't understand why it was set in a crowded courtyard full of Lannister men who have nothing better to do than to grab runaway servants, when it could just as well have been cleared out to represent some empty part of the castle. But set it there they did, and it just looks kind of hokey, all these extras in Lannister gear just ignoring her, ignoring Lorch, and Lorch never once thinking to order someone to just grab her.

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No, perish the thought. Personally I watch episodic fantasy television purely for educational purposes.

So you don't care how it entertains and who it entertains? Jersey Shore entertains a lot of people, I am sure.

This is why most fantasy on tv has sucked in the past. Yes, of course a story has to entertain, but if it doesn't care about how it entertains, it will be soulless.

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Not going to get in to the debate over the artistic license of the producers, I think I've been very clear in the past how I stand on that issue. (Although I do reserve the right to get righteously upset if all of a sudden one of the dragons gets killed or Littlefinger is the third name or whatever)

I do want to say though that I've thought things over and if I could vote again I think I'd give it an 8 instead of a 7; maybe even a 9. I think I was initially just shocked at how quick things were moving compared to previous episodes and that change made me think of the episode as disjointed, when in reality everything that happened had been set-up rather nicely. As always, its hard for me tell just how well things are flowing together since I, like everyone whose read the books as many (or far more) times than I have, can connect all the dots no matter what.

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There are necessary changes due to different medium, budget, etc. Then there's "we just liked this better".

I don't respect the latter. At all.

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I've already said that change is the nature of adaptation. But I don't believe a change of medium necessitates a change of voice and tone. It might lead to that, sometimes inadvertently, some times on purpose. But it's not absolutely necessary.

Again, D&D are trying to be faithful to the spirit of the story. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail.

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Ran,

I'm curious why you seem to think that Arya's scenes in this episode are almost objectively bad. Are they? From reading many recaps from reviewers (and seeing Tumblr and twitter reactions) - and as you noted, it seems to be a highlight of the episode for many.

This seems to be a case where your dislike of the change (& details) causes you to dismiss the whole set of scenes as bad. But not just pad, poorly plotted, "contrived", and filled with "false tension". A bit strong, IMO.

Many scenes adapted more faithfully from the book could easily be argued as being contrived. But as book readers, we are OK with it.

Edited by Hyper

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But Ran, adaptations are notorious for veering. Did you read GRRM's intro to the Graphic Novel? He acknowledges changes HAVE to be made when switching to new mediums. If you don't take the show as its own entity, you're not going to enjoy it.

I do not agree with this. GRRM did not write the ultimate fantasy story, as good as it is, you can make a TV show based or inspired by it and either make it better, exactly the same or worse. In this case I belive, as many others do, that it was made worse.

You can enjoy an adaptation, any adaptation if it`s done well, as an improvement or an addition to the original story, a way to say "Thank you for writting this, here`s a little movie we did in it`s honor". If it changes for the worse, which many people belive it does, it`s not so much a "Thank you" but a "F you, here`s how we`re gonna change your carefully thought out story for money". And belive it or not, people take issue with that.

I didn`t find this episode good, the early aspects of Winterfell though very well done, felt so rushed, they just show up inside winterfell in broad daylight dragging wounded Ser Rodrick around like it`s no thing. What happened to the deception from Cleftjaw? How did theon`s one boat crew defeated the 200+ winterfell force?

Arya and Tyrion scenes, much like their chapters in the books, always save the day, being the highlights of the whole thing.

Lorch, Littlefinger Teleporting, and Dany`s scenes were the low points.

Edited by Lord Hodor

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What is not the point of it? I honestly cannot see why that is a question. We are, first and foremost, fans of the books and we watch it as an adaptation. To review it in any other context would be pointless for us. I am not interested in the TV-show on its own merits, it cannot exist on its own merits.

I've been watching TV shows and reading books for some decades now. And while I respect your opinion and your right to have it, that kind of inflexible approach to source material often proves to be pretty detrimental. Not really the best examples, I admit, but I am reminded of all the sound and fury Deep Space Nine was subjected to because "it's not really Star Trek" and because it "betrayed Roddenberry's vision". Or the bashing the reimagined Battlestar Galactica endured as it was called GINO (Galactica in name only).

By all means, put the books at the front of your considerations, all nice and dandy, but please do try to avoid some of the pitfalls you seem to repeatedly fall into.

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I don't have a problem with the changes, though, which is why it's frustrating talking with people who harp on it. Amory Lorch being the second victim? Not a problem. Arya and Tywin? Good scenes (although I admit I think they're in danger of going to that well too often -- why not have her interact with Gendry or Hot Pie a bit, too?).

But badly staged television is badly staged. No one can come up with a credible reason why Arya can run around freely through a crowd of Lannister soldiers just milling about, Lorch chasing and shouting at her, and no one does anything, he doesn't think to maybe just tell one of those guards she keeps bumping into to grab her, etc. This was ill-considered. It was sloppy, lazy writing. That most people don't care is, I suppose, a blessing for them, but I noticed it right out and I was left wondering how in the world that scene made it to air without the tweaks needed to make it work properly.

In any case. It's not about changes. It's about scenes that work and scenes that don't work, and sometimes the scenes that don't work are faithful to the tone but just poorly written or badly acted, and sometimes scenes that do work aren't especially faithful but they're really good. The Lorch sequence was neither faithful nor particularly good. And I'm baffled that people number it as among their favorites in the episodes, but that's why there are different strokes for different folks, folks.

Finally, we're one review among many, and I think we've explained our approach to reviewing pretty well, I think, like it or lump it. We should move on to letting people just say what they rated, which is the ostensible purpose of the thread!

Edited by Ran

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Once again, I completely disagree. No changes of any true relevance, especially not enough to justify a claim that its becoming merely inspired by the books.

Other than the dragon theft, there weren't any major changes. And I'm confident that will turn out for the best.

"true relavence" is relative. i guess to some people having dany's dragons stolen, Robb's love storyline completely different from what Martin originally wrote, Littlefinger popping up everywhere you look, leaving out Meera and Jojen, and possibly even skipping the important stuff with the Halfhand is acceptable to cut from the show.

to me, it feels like the writers of the show are simply saying "my version of a song of ice and fire is better than Martin's". I can pretty much gurantee you're wrong if you say otherwise- why else would they make so many (lame) changes?

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So you don't care how it entertains and who it entertains? Jersey Shore entertains a lot of people, I am sure.

This is why most fantasy on tv has sucked in the past. Yes, of course a story has to entertain, but if it doesn't care about how it entertains, it will be soulless.

Yes, I agree with you there, yet this episode is anything but soulless. It was poignant, dramatic, well themed and well paced. I agree with Ran that the Amory Lorch moment seemed like a scene more at home in a Pink Panther movie than on GOt. I also believe that the Talisa/Robb interaction, in both episodes we've seen so far, represents some of the worst tendencies of romantic scene writing. But both these brief less than stellar scenes did not, and could not, as a whole take away from an extremely well orchestrated and delivered hour of drama.

Is the episode perfect? No, ofcourse not. But for me, it was a fabulous hour of television.

On the Myrcella crying issue; There's a very good reason why they could not have her go off dry eyed and stolid, because it would have come off at best as unrealistic, and at worst as very bad acting. It would also have reduced the overall drama of that parting scene, as viewers connect with characters and situations primarily through emotion. The emotional link with that little girl being shipped away to a strange land all on her own, would have been diminished. Consequently, our connection to Cersie's pain over the loss of her only daughter, a child, sold like so much chattel, sent away alone, would have also been undercut. It was necessary to deliver the drama of the moment in which the scene lived.

When Myrcella's character comes into narrative focus in the future, the show will, hopefully, define her in accordance to GRRM's vision using whatever dramatic means necessary for that moment.

Edited by Sun

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7. It was a pretty meh episode. Nothing much happens, or rather, nothing big happens.

The highlight of the show was the wolves and seeing the little bastard Joffery getting slapped again. Woohoo!

Arya + Tywin is always a pleasure. As mentioned, the whole Armory Lorch sequence should have been coordinated better. It's a sloppy execution but I can still suspend my disbelief for a while since it's TV.

Yigritte was good. Much better than expected. TV Jon Snow is a wuss. It's better that he just let her go, like in the books. So now TV Jon Snow can't make good decisions. He can't even tie her up properly. Geez.

Theon is getting quite detestable, but that's good, it's just like in the books. The whole winterfell conquest was meh. Not much drama. Nor is the escape.

Dany's storyline. Still meh. Dragons got stolen... yeah, I don't buy it but it's ok since I don't care much for her storyline.

Can't really remember anything else that went on. It is a good transitional episode, that's all.

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Best episode of season 2 so far, I simply loved it. For Sandor and Sansa, for Tyrion who slaps Joffrey again, the look Jaqen H'gar gives Arya.. This is going to be a long wait until next week.

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AWESOME episode... again, not giving it a 10 cuz that's reserved for Blackwater.

Great acting from Bran, Theon, Tywin

Thank you to D&D for adding something interesting to Dany's storyline. (Its funny how I worship ASOIAF yet absolutely despise Dany..and its affecting my judgement of the TV character too)

Jack Gleeson's Joffrey takes the crown (lol) for me, though, for that little scene with Sansa at the beginning. I wish they postpone the PW for as long as possible so that we can enjoy his performances.

I was kinda weirded out by the Osha scene...cuz well...never thought of her naked, lol.

Great episode over all

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OT: best episode so far, I gave it a 9. Arya and Dany's storyline have improved for the better. The rest was enthralling as well. Highlight was, yet again, Tywin and Arya, especially with the suspense revolving LF.

On the eternal purist vs. apologist discussion: I think many here ARE judging the show according to the two axes proposed by Ran (spirit of books and merit as television).

The difficulty of the first axis is that it will never be resolved what "the spirit" of the novels is. It's a very vague criterion. Is Myrcella at the core of asoiaf's spirit? I don't think so but for others it is. Or are we talking about broader themes like the ambiguity of morality and the dirty game of politics? How far do you take it? The spirit may seem self-evident but it really is not.

And even if there is a general consensus about that spirit, does that mean it is without flaws? I doubt it, considering all the disussions on the general boards. Is affc boring or not? Is Dany's storyline entertaining or not? Are the iron islands and dorne interesting or not? These questions all have proponents and detractors. This issue is more related to the second axis (the merit)

D&D have made their own choices about all these questions. Their definition of the spirit may differ from other readers and, what is more, they think they can tweek it to appeal to a broader audience. I think that is totally legitimate and I'm enjoying it so far. It's not perfect but no TV show is.

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I just have a question for the people that have been consistantly complaining about the changes in the story that the show keeps making from the books:

Now that you know that the show is going to do that, and it annoys you, why do you keep watching? I mean, if you can't accept, whether you like it or not that, this is the direction the show will take for future seasons as well as the conclusion of this season, why do you keep tuning in? For once, I'm not being sarcastic.

Is it out of an obligation that you read the books and thus have to watch the show? Are you still watching just to mock it out, alla MST3K?

I mean, I used to like Fringe, then I thought it got goofy, so I stopped watching it. If you don't like the changes, and you can't accept that its being made into a seperate entity, with storylines vastly different from the book, why subject yourself to an hour of annoyance?

You have the right to your opinions, and that's what this forum is for, but you can't question our love of the books because we can understand and accept that the show is the show, and the books are the books. Besides, doesn't it say "BASED on A Song of Ice and Fire" in the credits?

As a self-confessed "complainer" I don't claim to answer for everybody complaining about storyline changes nor should this reply be treated as such. In fact in my case, I do believe I agree with you - we're not all masochists.

As I said in my original post, I'm no GRR Martin purist and there were changes to the storyline which I particularly enjoyed. The first season gave me no cause for complaint and neither did the second season barring episodes 2 and 6. In my case therefore, the only reasons I can think of to keep watching it would be twofold:

1) There will be episodes which I will enjoy interspersed between the ones that I do not. (Case in point episodes 3-5 this season)

2) The changes made in the series will eventually make sense as I'll be able to appreciate the new storyline for what it is.

That said, as from yesterday's episode I've decided to stop watching. I am dissatisfied with the series simply because as from the last episode it is no longer my cup of tea. I watch a tv series to enjoy it. Having read the books and much of the official background information, I have a certain world and detailed story imagined in my head. Now, a few of the changes made in the series occassionally come into conflict with that, in some cases horribly and it isn't something I particularly enjoy. Ergo, since I am no longer enjoying it, I'm more than happy to stick with the original text.

I'm well aware that HBO is in the business of making and keeping viewers, plenty of people are happy with the series (as is GRR Martin) so who am I to complain.

So, to answer your question. I kept watching it only to see if the second episode of this season was a fluke. It seems that it wasn't.

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That crazed, lost and piteous look on Theon's face right after he beheaded Rodrik was BEYOND.

That scene was more harrowing than even Ned's beheading. Theon has crossed the point of no return in this moment and yet, because of Alfie Allen, we STILL feel something for Theon. I love, love, love Allen's portrayal of this character. I can't express it enough. Dinklage/Tyrion get a lot of the great lines but it's the ones like Alfie Allen , Maisie Williams and Charles Dance that really make this series something so special.

Also kudos to Isaac Hempstead-Wright for playing Bran so well during the Sacking of Winterfell. I loved the nonchalant attitude he showed Theon when he "triumphantly" stormed into his bedchamber. Loved how be portrayed absolute panic and shock when he realized Theon was going to behead the beloved Rodrik Cassel. I totally felt what he was feeling in the moment.

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That said, as from yesterday's episode I've decided to stop watching. I am dissatisfied with the series simply because as from the last episode it is no longer my cup of tea. I watch a tv series to enjoy it. Having read the books and much of the official background information, I have a certain world and detailed story imagined in my head. Now, a few of the changes made in the series occassionally come into conflict with that, in some cases horribly and it isn't something I particularly enjoy. Ergo, since I am no longer enjoying it, I'm more than happy to stick with the original text.

While I don't agree with your opinions on the show, I admire and applaud the fact that you're sensible enough to stop wasting 50 minutes of your week watching a TV program that doesn't appeal to you, rather than using it as a platform to continually piss and moan to others about the impurity of the product.

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Yes, I agree with you there, yet this episode is anything but soulless. It was poignant, dramatic, well themed and well paced. I agree with Ran that the Amory Lorch moment seemed like a scene more at home in a Pink Panther movie than on GOt. I also believe that the Talisa/Robb interaction, in both episodes we've seen so far, represents some of the worst tendencies of romantic scene writing. But both these brief less than stellar scenes did not, and could not, as a whole take away from an extremely well orchestrated and delivered hour of drama.

Is the episode perfect? No, ofcourse not. But for me, it was a fabulous hour of television.

On the Myrcella crying issue; There's a very good reason why they could not have her go off dry eyed and stolid, because it would have come off at best as unrealistic, and at worst as very bad acting. It would also have reduced the overall drama of that parting scene, as viewers connect with characters and situations primarily through emotion. The emotional link with that little girl being shipped away to a strange land all on her own, would have been diminished. Consequently, our connection to Cersie's pain over the loss of her only daughter, a child, sold like so much chattel, sent away alone, would have also been undercut. It was necessary to deliver the drama of the moment in which the scene lived.

When Myrcella's character comes into narrative focus in the future, the show will, hopefully, define her in accordance to GRRM's vision using whatever dramatic means necessary for that moment.

YES. I completely agree with this statement! If we were seeing Myrcella being shipped off cheerfully as she was in the books it would have diminished the emotional impact of Cersei's venomous words towards Tyrion moments later. Sometimes the show improves on the books and I think this was one of those moments. It's much more realistic to have a girl cry as she's leaving her family and all that she knows than to have her chirping and happy.

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