House Army numbers?

[King Aerys the Just]

Well we know that Bolton gathered up a number of Karstarks men. How many we cant say but i cant imagine there were that many of them-they pretty much scattered in all directions. Did Roose bring back any other allied Northerners? Dont think so IIRC. So by the majority i would think its definately over 3000. Then Ramsay gets 600 men pretty much straight away so 4000 isnt unattainable

Hmm. Don't those 4000 men include the 1500 Freys who came north with Hosteen and Anus to attend Ramsay's wedding though? In that case the Bolton troops with Roose may well have come in at less than two thousand.

[Ran]

We see the empty barrowlands in Ned's chapter, as well as its lack of fertility, we have the evidence of the deserted kingsroad area which really shouldn't be if the place has a normal population density, we have the fact that most of the barrowlands are as bare and windswept as the section we saw at firsthand due to Reek's statement to this effect.

It's just not a fertile and populace place. I wonder if the First Men are to blame. Deforestation followed by intense agricultural activity that the soil type wasn't suitable for...

[Free Northman]

We see the empty barrowlands in Ned's chapter, as well as its lack of fertility, we have the evidence of the deserted kingsroad area which really shouldn't be if the place has a normal population density, we have the fact that most of the barrowlands are as bare and windswept as the section we saw at firsthand due to Reek's statement to this effect.

It's just not a fertile and populace place. I wonder if the First Men are to blame. Deforestation followed by intense agricultural activity that the soil type wasn't suitable for...

I disagree. Its emptiness is no more remarked upon than Bran's references to seeing no people on his way north of Winterfell, or Jon's references to the state of the Gift, or references to the Stony Shore, or any other POV we've had in the North.

Show me one travelling POV in the North that has commented on a high population density? None have. The Barrowlands are not hinted to be any less populated than any other area of the North.

The fact is, we've always known the North has a lower population density than the South, but the Ironborn still note that the North is "too full of Northmen" to ever conquer.

The North has a population density of maybe a quarter that of the South. But since it is still 5 times or more bigger than the average Southern Kingdom, it likely still has a higher overall population than all but the Reach and maybe the Riverlands.

[Frey Pie]

Hmm. Don't those 4000 men include the 1500 Freys who came north with Hosteen and Anus to attend Ramsay's wedding though? In that case the Bolton troops with Roose may well have come in at less than two thousand.

No i think these are seperate forces. Well thats what iv always thought but i dont have the passage infront of me. Roose send a third of the Northern foot to Duskendale. Thats 3000 men so he had 9000 before Duskendale. He then lost yet another battle and killed the rest at the RW. So i would think the 4000 are all his and Karstark men

[King Aerys the Just]

No i think these are seperate forces. Well thats what iv always thought but i dont have the passage infront of me. Roose send a third of the Northern foot to Duskendale. Thats 3000 men so he had 9000 before Duskendale. He then lost yet another battle and killed the rest at the RW. So i would think the 4000 are all his and Karstark men

I checked, and you turned out to be right! Those two in ten out of twenty thousand were "mostly" Dreadfort men, though Theon also seems to have included wounded and cripples in that number, while the Freys are counted separately.

[Ran]

Its emptiness is no more remarked upon than Bran's references to seeing no people on his way north of Winterfell, or Jon's references to the state of the Gift, or references to the Stony Shore, or any other POV we've had in the North.

Leaving aside that Bran and co. were deliberately trying to avoid people, both the Gift and the Stony Shore are specifically noted to be thinly peopled.

In fact, the Gift is said to be especially depopulated compared to the average for the North. So we certainly have a sense of population densities, and mostly it's "very low population" or "very, very low population".

And when Tyrion travels north to the Wall, he notes that at least for the first part of their journey -- about two weeks of it -- they were able to depend on having roofs to sleep under, in villages, holdfasts, what have you. Yet by eight days south of Winterfell (eight days by wheelhouse speed, which was probably not as fast as what Benjen was managing), in the barrowlands, there's literally no sight of anyone at all, no habitation, nothing. Doesn't mean it's like that all the way down the kingsroad, but it's suggestive that the barrowlands is significantly less hospitable than the landscape three weeks to the north.

[King Aerys the Just]

The Gift sounds like it, apart from the settlements at Mole's Town and Eastwatch, is more or less completely devoid of people. Indication being that the Watch has to depend on donations from Northern lords to survive even though the Gift is their personal fief to tax, hunt and fish in,there are just a thousand of them and they don't even need to get paid.

[Northern light]

"And when Tyrion travels north to the Wall, he notes that at least for the first part of their journey -- about two weeks of it -- they were able to depend on having roofs to sleep under, in villages, holdfasts, what have you. Yet by eight days south of Winterfell (eight days by wheelhouse speed, which was probably not as fast as what Benjen was managing), in the barrowlands, there's literally no sight of anyone at all, no habitation, nothing."

I don't know if that's comparable since it's two different POV's (i.e. two different perspectives).

[King Aerys the Just]

Well, the Wiki. Not a source I'd trust. The source of the South America comparison is a SSM

Measuring the maps in my copy of Feast I come up with 1.6 cm for the width of the Wall, known to be 300 miles and ~20 cm From the Wall to the southern coast. That's at least 3750 miles. And I neglected the fact that the east-west length of the Wall in the far north would appear way bigger on paper than on a round planet.

I measured the map in ADWD and got the wall to be about 1/11th the length of Westeros, again. Wouldn't the round planet thing go for the north/south distance as well, or have I completely forgotten my geography now?

[Ran]

I don't know if that's comparable since it's two different POV's (i.e. two different perspectives).

What? You're saying that Ned's eyes would miss people? Is he blind?

Sorry, makes no sense. We literally have a description of the barrowlands from Ned and he describes this bare, brown, empty plain with nothing but barrows as far as eyes can see. It's not a POV issue. It's a hard detail.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Roose brought 4,000 Boltons when Robb gathered his troops in Game, not to be confused with the 4,000 Northerners, mostly Bolton, that he brought back in Dance. Granted, it's from memory.

[Ran]

We never get Bolton figures in AGoT. Just Karstark and Manderly, I think.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I measured the map in ADWD and got the wall to be about 1/11th the length of Westeros, again. Wouldn't the round planet thing go for the north/south distance as well, or have I completely forgotten my geography now?

Maybe, depends on how the map was drawn. A full planet map would have shortened distances in the center and lengthened at the edges. But most maps keep the distance between the latitudes everwhere the same (111 km) and just adjust the longitude (that varies anyway). Leading to the Russian-Canadian coastlines on world maps being depicted several times longer than they actually are. It's the same for the Wall.

[King Aerys the Just]

Maybe, depends on how the map was drawn. A full planet map would have shortened distances in the center and lengthened at the edges. But most maps keep the distance between the latitudes everwhere the same (111 km) and just adjust the longitude (that varies anyway). Leading to the Russian-Canadian coastlines on world maps being depicted several times longer than they actually are. It's the same for the Wall.

I see. Still, isn't it quite unlikely that Westeros actually is about 50% longer than the number you get by comparing the length of the wall to the continent on the map? Do we for that matter even know if the world of Ice and Fire is round? :P

[The Frosted King]

I honestly have given up.

There's consistently a new military guesstimate thread once a month, and people always bloat the numbers, far from what the books imply.

The Lannisters likely top out at around 50k.

The Starks likely top out around 35 to 40k, though my gut says 35.

The Arryns are likely in a similar boat as the Starks, so i'd wager a good 30k.

The Baratheons were definitely 30kish.

The Tullys, i honestly don't know, but would guess they're up there with the Lannisters. Which made Tywins strategy so necessary.

The Dornish are likely around 20-25k.

We know the Tyrells are monstrous, so 80k is a fine bet.

The North having 30k men loitering around is so out of touch with the characters from the books, that anyone could believe it so is head scratching.

[Northern light]

What? You're saying that Ned's eyes would miss people? Is he blind?

Sorry, makes no sense. We literally have a description of the barrowlands from Ned and he describes this bare, brown, empty plain with nothing but barrows as far as eyes can see. It's not a POV issue. It's a hard detail.

Everything is a POV issue, that's how the story is written ;). Just to play the devil's advocate, perhaps one shouldn't generalize a whole area with that size (i.e. southern parts of the North) based on what one POV sees when he travels by a road. Perhaps the King's road have the shortest route to Winterfell rather than by the most populated areas?

[E-Ro]

The North having 30k men loitering around is so out of touch with the characters from the books, that anyone could believe it so is head scratching.

The fact that you think there are not 30k men left in the north after 18k leaving is head scratching.

Really dude? The population of the north is less then 1 million people? How would they even exist as an independent kingdom, neck or no. The best fortifications in the world wont save you when everyone is bringing 40+ men to the field and you are bringing 18.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I see. Still, isn't it quite unlikely that Westeros actually is about 50% longer than the number you get by comparing the length of the wall to the continent on the map? Do we for that matter even know if the world of Ice and Fire is round? :P

That's why I'm going from a SSM, the map was just because I'm to lazy to search 15 years worth of SSMs :cool4:

I honestly have given up.

There's consistently a new military guesstimate thread once a month, and people always bloat the numbers, far from what the books imply.

The Lannisters likely top out at around 50k.

The Starks likely top out around 35 to 40k, though my gut says 35.

The Arryns are likely in a similar boat as the Starks, so i'd wager a good 30k.

The Baratheons were definitely 30kish.

The Tullys, i honestly don't know, but would guess they're up there with the Lannisters. Which made Tywins strategy so necessary.

The Dornish are likely around 20-25k.

We know the Tyrells are monstrous, so 80k is a fine bet.

The North having 30k men loitering around is so out of touch with the characters from the books, that anyone could believe it so is head scratching.

To each his own. But please acknowledge that we bring textual evidence whereas you are going of a gut feeling.

[The Frosted King]

The fact that you think there are not 30k men left in the north after 18k leaving is head scratching.

Really dude? The population of the north is less then 1 million people? How would they even exist as an independent kingdom, neck or no. The best fortifications in the world wont save you when everyone is bringing 40+ men to the field and you are bringing 18.

The books E-Ro. I agree with you on many things, but this is something that i never will until the books imply it.

Robb never talks about winning back north and raising a host.

His men never seek to do so.

Rodrik, his castellan and while Robbs away second in command, never speaks about raising another army for his kings campaign in the south.

When the kingdom is threatened, he only raises 2000 men, leaving the other 28k to eat meatpies?

When the Lannisters join the Tyrells, his lords consider the cause lost, when another 30k are waiting marching orders back home?

When the battle for the north is revving up, less than 12k men are in play, with only perhaps 8500 being northmen, when theres another 20k just burping out the remnants of their earlier meatpies?

The books never make it seem as if the Starks have another huge host waiting to be called up, but it does imply that the Lannisters and Tyrells have such options.

[Damar]

The fact that you think there are not 30k men left in the north after 18k leaving is head scratching.

Really dude? The population of the north is less then 1 million people? How would they even exist as an independent kingdom, neck or no. The best fortifications in the world wont save you when everyone is bringing 40+ men to the field and you are bringing 18.

Than where are they in ADWD? Why is everyone's forces down to a few thousand on each side?