Jaime Lannisters honor?

[Ser Leftwich]

I do not think Jamie cares if people think he is honorable or not. That horse has left the barn.

He will make his own reputation/history by doing something that he thinks will be worth noting in the White Book. And I think whoever comes after Jamie will begrudgingly let what goes in the book stay in the book.

Interesting that we never got any insight into what Tywin thought of Jamie's killing Aerys?

[corbon]

Barristan is an interesting case as he himself can't really claim much honour from the end of the rebellion, no matter what Ned says. The only Kingsguard that kept their honour were Lewyn Martell, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Darry. Barristan knelt to a usurper while his King still lived, he has some nerve berating Jaime about it.

I don't believe this is true. He was wounded in the Battle of the Trident and only knelt after he had recovered from his wounds - by that time Aerys was dead already.

[teemo]

I think he will always be the notorious kingslayer, regardless of whatever info is released to the general public.

[Kittyhat]

I think what you meant to say there was that they made every effort... except not engaging in incest.

But that's me. I hear about a guy throwing a little boy out of a window to die because that child, in his own home where he has every right to be, saw him fucking his sister who is married to another man I don't really try to squint hard enough to see some moral gray area. I just consider him a shitstain.

This. A thousand times this.

I'm not interested in the "redemption" of Jaime Lannister. The only good thing about him is Brienne, and the good there is mostly Brienne, not Jaime. Out of respect for her only, I can find it in myself not to wish him death by brutal torture. But I'll never like him or see honor in him, and I'm not sold on his alleged "grayness."

[bloodymime]

This. A thousand times this.

I'm not interested in the "redemption" of Jaime Lannister. The only good thing about him is Brienne, and the good there is mostly Brienne, not Jaime. Out of respect for her only, I can find it in myself not to wish him death by brutal torture. But I'll never like him or see honor in him, and I'm not sold on his alleged "grayness."

I actually am even if I haven't seen anything so far from him to indicate any true change. It says it right there in the books, Jaime is the Warrior and that's all he's ever wanted to be, he's not very bright and he lets himself be led around by his cock by his sister. And sorry for all you romantics, this is no true love that defies all boundaries. He's more than quick enough to turn his back on her once he finds out about Lancel... and Kettleblack... and Moonboy for all we know. These are two people that are in love with themselves, not each other.

Jaime doesn't even want to join the Kingsguard, he lets Cersei seduce him into it and then has to spend his remaining boyhood years witnessing and listening to the atrocities of the Mad King. Really the best thing that could have been done for the Kingslayer is to send him to the Wall and get him away from the poison that is his family, but instead he stayed and just sunk deeper into the sewer of KL.

He's gotten a wake up call and now it's time to see what he'll do with it. He seems to be quickly slipping back into old habits but who knows. He survived the Bloody Mummers and there was something in him doing what he could to save Brienne from their tender intentions. Much like the Hound he seems trapped by the monsters he witnessed as a boy unable to become a man that takes responsibility for his own actions.

[LuisDantas]

Barristan is an interesting case as he himself can't really claim much honour from the end of the rebellion, no matter what Ned says. The only Kingsguard that kept their honour were Lewyn Martell, Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, Gerold Hightower and Darry. Barristan knelt to a usurper while his King still lived, he has some nerve berating Jaime about it.

How so? Theirs are very different situations.

Barristan deserted Aerys' cause at a time when it was perfectly clear that he was unworthy of his protection. That is laudable, it is showing good judgement and trusting his discernment over static vows.

Jaime (as far as Barristan knows) did something completely different and far less honorable. Had Jaime simply left his post or even fought for Robert and Ned, then yes Barristan would lack the moral ground to criticize him. But actually stabbing the man he had sworn to protect needs a completely different level of justification. It is not Barristan's fault that he doesn't know that there is such justification.

[bloodymime]

How so? Theirs are very different situations.

Barristan deserted Aerys' cause at a time when it was perfectly clear that he was unworthy of his protection. That is laudable, it is showing good judgement and trusting his discernment over static vows.

Jaime (as far as Barristan knows) did something completely different and far less honorable. Had Jaime simply left his post or even fought for Robert and Ned, then yes Barristan would lack the moral ground to criticize him. But actually stabbing the man he had sworn to protect needs a completely different level of justification. It is not Barristan's fault that he doesn't know that there is such justification.

I often wonder if Kingslayer would do the same thing if he knew the way people would mutter behind his back. Frankly I don't think he would. He might spin a yarn about how he saved KL from burning, he might even convince himself of it, but nothing in his pov's make me think he would be willing to take the same action if he knew how people would see him for it.

[Currawong]

I often wonder if Kingslayer would do the same thing if he knew the way people would mutter behind his back. Frankly I don't think he would. He might spin a yarn about how he saved KL from burning, he might even convince himself of it, but nothing in his pov's make me think he would be willing to take the same action if he knew how people would see him for it.

Hmmm - I don't know. I don't get any impression that he regrets killing Aerys at all, especially in the circumstances. With benefit of hindsight, would he simply have held Aerys captive in some way until Robert or Tywin arrived? Maybe - but then, wouldn't he still be seen as having broken his KG oath because he hadn't protected his king with his own life? That is part of the general condemnation - that the KG are supposed to give their own lives to protect their king.

Perhaps having broken one oath by killing Aerys, in hindsight he might have decided to break other parts of it (llike the vow of silence and confidentiality) and tell people what really went on - about Aerys's plans for KL, about the brutality to his wife, about all the other things he knew as a KG member. That's one of the odd things about Jaime and his honour - except for when he talks to Brienne in the baths at Harrenhal, he has obviously kept silent all this time about a whole lot of stuff that could have been used to justify his actions in the eyes of the public.

[bloodymime]

Hmmm - I don't know. I don't get any impression that he regrets killing Aerys at all, especially in the circumstances. With benefit of hindsight, would he simply have held Aerys captive in some way until Robert or Tywin arrived? Maybe - but then, wouldn't he still be seen as having broken his KG oath because he hadn't protected his king with his own life? That is part of the general condemnation - that the KG are supposed to give their own lives to protect their king.

Perhaps having broken one oath by killing Aerys, in hindsight he might have decided to break other parts of it (llike the vow of silence and confidentiality) and tell people what really went on - about Aerys's plans for KL, about the brutality to his wife, about all the other things he knew as a KG member. That's one of the odd things about Jaime and his honour - except for when he talks to Brienne in the baths at Harrenhal, he has obviously kept silent all this time about a whole lot of stuff that could have been used to justify his actions in the eyes of the public.

He doesn't regret killing Aerys, he whines about being known for killing Aerys. He has little enough regard for others lives that I do think he would trade all those lives in KL for his reputation back and a horse to get the hell out of Dodge before it went up in flames.

In fact am I imagining it or isn't there a pov of his where he wishes he hadn't gone in to that throne room in his armor, going instead in his whites or dressed plain and just slipping out before anyone saw him so no one would ever know he did it.

He's much like his father, he doesn't realize the perception of the deeds isn't what matters, it's the deeds themselves that have the meaning.

[Queen Cersei I]

I do not think Jamie cares if people think he is honorable or not. That horse has left the barn.

Well, if Jaime wants people to think he has some fundamental honor and decency, a good plan would to be start acting with some small measure of honor and basic decency. However, other than doing things for his family/ patriarch rather than his wicked sister, constantly thinking Cersei is a whore, thinking well of Robert Baratheon, and oggling nearly every attractive woman he meets now a la Tyrion, Jaime has not changed. At all.

Is there any way for Jaime Lannister to change the perception of him in the eyes of the people of Westeros. The 7 kingdoms believe him to be an amoral, sociopathic oathbreaker. Whether he is or not is not what I am asking, I am asking if he can do anything to change this perception.

Well, for one thing, he could stop being an amoral, sociopathic oathbreaker. Before he even gets started with the whole PR campaign of "Jaime Lannister-- a really nice guy now!" it is necessary that, he, you know, actually become a nice guy and act with fundamental decency in his daily dealings.

Jaime is as much of an "amoral, sociopathic oathbreaker" as ever because:

Amoral: He follows no set code of morality. Despite being presented more negatively before because he was doing everything for his sister and Cersei's vagina is apparently the path to all evil, Jaime still is selfish, without scruples, and basically amoral (at best.) Which leads me to:

Sociopathic: The act that Jaime is most reviled for by readers was his choice to murder a child in order to protect his secret. Yet, Jaime is more willing than ever to murder a defenseless child, as he proved with the Edmure scenario. He reflects himself several times that he would have surely gone through with his threats to murder a baby simply because he feels the need to be feared/ taken seriously. He also ordered his soldiers to kill Jeyne Westerilng if she so much as tried to run, an order which shocked even the soldiers he ordered to do so. There is no reason why he has to say, "shoot first, ask questions later" here. He could have just as easily had them run after Jeyne.

He is still willing to kill children. Now not for the sake of his love, but for his own reputation and the interests of his dynasty/ family. And the current moral attrocities seem utterly worse to me, since at least with Bran he threw the boy in a moment of panic, rather spontaneously. Here he acted slowly and deliberately, willing to murder an infant after carefully thinking through the issue.

In addition to thinking Cersei's a whore now, though, he is "moral" in that he thinks Robert is, to quote grrm, "basically a good guy in a lot of ways,"and that committing adultery and allowing Cersei to thwart the mighty partriarchy was treasonous and evil and an offense deserving of death. (On her part, but, for some reason, not on his own.) In this he seems to concur with the opinions of his creator.

An oathbreaker: Jaime continues to break oaths-- not desperately, under duress as he did before (with Aerys.) But knowingly, deliberately, while weakly excusing and mitigating and justifying his actions in his own minds every step of the way. He did not do everything he could to ensure the freedom and safety of the Stark girls, as he promised Cat. Instead, he gave up looking for them the moment the going got tough, sent Brienne off on a suicidal fools mission, and went back to selfishly pursuing his own interests the moment he could. He also spent copious amounts of time sexually obsessing over his sister.

Furthermore, he breaks his promise to Cat about not taking up sword against the Tully's in every possible sense, getting himself off on a technicality.

Honestly, Jaime is now beloved because he is presesnted more positively, but he is every bit as selfish, amoral, and faithless as when we first met him. In fact, I'd argue that at this point, he's even worse. Before, as horrible as they were, most of his attrocities were done in the heat of the moment, without careful prior deliberation-- often protecting something, whether it be his sister, Kings Landing, or what have you. Now he commits the same heinous acts of child murder and oathbreaking after careful deliberation. He just never fails to think what a filthy whore his sister is while doing them, so he is presented positively and everyone loves him now.

And yes, he will inevitably and predictably end up strangling Cersei, and readers will doubtlessly cheer him on for it. Personally I find this ironic, since Jaime is perhaps the only signficant character in these books who does not deserve to murder Cersei.

[Ravenhair]

@bloodymime

As to the cloak/armor, this is what happened: "Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well."

@everyone bashing Jaime

As to defending Jaime's honor, I must ask for a brief reprieve for the purposes of sleep. Tomorrow?

[Currawong]

He doesn't regret killing Aerys, he whines about being known for killing Aerys. He has little enough regard for others lives that I do think he would trade all those lives in KL for his reputation back and a horse to get the hell out of Dodge before it went up in flames.

I don't see Jaime Lannister 'whining' about his reputation at all. Jaime may be many things to different people, but he is not a whiner.

As for his threat when dealing with Edmure, I have to say I agree 100% with Jaime himself. When he first deals with Ryman Frey (who has been displaying Edmure Tully on a scaffold and threatening to kill him but never doing so), Jaime tells Ryman that only a fool makes threats that he is not prepared to carry out, and proceeds to demonstrate this. I have no respect at all for those people in life who are full of hot air and make empty threats or boasts that they cannot or will not live up to, or who constantly have second thoughts because someone says "Oh, you can't do that. You'd hurt someone's feelings" or whatever. Think things through properly and then if you have to make a threat, damned well mean it. in the case of Edmure Tully, Jaime offered sensible and reasonable terms, that would save many lives and allow people to surrender with lives and dignity - or a threat that would undoubtedly cost thousands of lives on both sides, not just one unborn baby. Threatening a seige and a bloody battle with lots of other innocent lives would be reasonable warfare, but threatening to kill one baby is somehow despicable? The book makes it quite clear that Jaime did not like making that threat, but it was the one final lever that he had with Edmure. When he reflects that he may have had to carry it out, he sounds regretful, not proud or self-satisfied. Hardly the picture of an amoral man.

@ Queen Cersei - I don't see Jaime toeing the family line and following the patriarchal demands at all. He did quite the opposite. In the AFFC chapter I read, Jaime's huge and final rift with Tywin was precisely because hewouldn't follow his father's demands and give up the KG for "family duties", or marry Joffrey's widow for dynastic / political reasons.

As for following his own interests - well, why are you condemning him for deciding to stay with the KG (as he had sworn) and not accept Tywin's offer to buy his way out, so he could become the Lannister heir and inherit Casterly Rock with all the wealth? That's really what Tywin was offering wasn't it - enough Lannister gold paid to the High Septon will get you released from any oath? If Jaime had no honour to speak of, as you insist, he would have said "Thank you Daddy - excellent idea. How quickly can you pay them off?"

He also ordered his soldiers to kill Jeyne Westerilng if she so much as tried to run, an order which shocked even the soldiers he ordered to do so. There is no reason why he has to say, "shoot first, ask questions later" here. He could have just as easily had them run after Jeyne.

Why should he,and where is this alleged shock from? Jaime gives orders to keep archers handy near Jeyne as well as Edmure on the journey west, but he is speaking alone to Ser Forley Prester, and his reasons are clear - she is Robb Stark's widow, and just as dangerous if she escapes. Ser Forley seemed startled, not shocked, because the implications hadn't hit him until Jaime expains. There's nothing to indicate that anyone is "shocked" about the orders. Brynden Tully has already escaped and Jaime is not going to allow that to happen with Robb Stark's widow. I see it as perfectly sensible precautions and if Jeyne gets the message that she will be shot if she runs, so much the better.

ETA:

@ Queen Cersei again:

He did not do everything he could to ensure the freedom and safety of the Stark girls, as he promised Cat. Instead, he gave up looking for them the moment the going got tough, sent Brienne off on a suicidal fools mission,

Um, are you forgetting something ? When he gave that oath to Catelyn, all three of them believed that Sansa and Arya were safe in KL. But when Jaime and Brienne finally get there, they find that Arya had disappeared immediately following Ned's death, and no one has been able to find her (including LF and Varys) and she is presumed dead. Sansa too has now simply vanished, following Joffrey's death and again, people have been looking for her without success. So being realistic, what exactly did you propose that Jaime should do? What can he do that hasn't already been done? It may be a fairly forlorn hope, but sending Brienne quietly off alone probably stands a much better chance than if Jaime openly abandoned things in KL and went off on the search too. And if he happens to find out information while in KL, he can take whatever steps he can. Don't accuse Jaime of being dishonourable when the entire situaiton has changed and he has no reasonable way of keeping his oath!

[Hear Us Roar]

"A lion should not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep"

-Tywin Lannsister

[bloodymime]

"A lion should not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep"

-Tywin Lannsister

Good point, the Lannisters certainly are as delusional as the Targaryens in their pride. Even mirrored in the puppet incidents of Cersei and Aerion.

Jaime does respect good men in his head, I guess it will become a question of whether he become the kind of man he looks up to or a man like his father always fearing the laughter of others. Can a man as polluted as Kingslayer redeem himself? It is an interesting storyline.

We never see Barristan and Kingslayer interact and Jaime never thinks about it that I can remember. I wonder what their relationship was like after the rebellion. Did Barristan simply ignore him as a much as possible? Did he ever try to talk to Jaime about what it was like during Aerys reign or does he simply look past his shoulder and pretend he's talking to some stranger whenever he had to actually give him orders.

[Per128]

I find it surprising how several people in this thread seem to judge ASOIAF as if it were a Disney story with distinct roles of good and evil. That's not how GRRM writes.

The irony is that attempting to elevate oneself by harsh judgement of others that doesn't allow for the consideration of realistic complexities tends to have the opposite of the desired effect. I am reminded of a woman who said she wished I would die, for saying that I'm not comfortable with seeing men kissing. Apparently she felt that she was being a noble defender of the rights of a group of minorities.

GRRM handles mature and deep topics and puts a great deal of effort into writing characters that deal with realistic dilemmas. He's clearly very interested in such themes. For many of us, that is at the core of appreciating his work and it's hard to see why someone would want him to write stereotypical comic-book characters.

So, with regards to the Bran situation; The author puts a great deal of work into handling the "lesser evil" principle and an ethical dilemma, so it's a shame when a reader dismisses all of that and makes a simple-minded snap judgement while believing that it actually portrays the reader as morally superior as well. "They hate our freedoms", indeed.

[Serie]

I do not think Jamie cares if people think he is honorable or not. That horse has left the barn.

I think he does. After ASOS he seems pretty concerned and even sometimes offended when people call him Kingslayer.

[Gurkhal]

I think people are taking this a bit to far here. Jaime is by no means a sociopath if not for the sheer reason that he is capable of questioning his own actions and attempt to change his behavior on his own, even with some inspiration from Brienne. It seems to me that a sociopath would be more of...set in his ways in a way that I don't think that Jaime is. A sociopath is born the way he is but Jaime became the way he is through experience and did not enter it untill being a young adult.

Also while Jaime may THINK he is honorable we all know that the POV's are somewhat unreliable narrators and thus it might not necessarily mean that he IS honorable. I for one don't forgive that he is both blaming Cersei for his own actions and for leaving her high and dry when she needs him and which is probalby a result of Jaime blaming Cersei for what he himself decided to do.

Nevertheless I love Jaime, he's a good guy if not conventionally honorable, a interesting character and in general awesome.

[Castel]

He also ordered his soldiers to kill Jeyne Westerilng if she so much as tried to run, an order which shocked even the soldiers he ordered to do so. There is no reason why he has to say, "shoot first, ask questions later" here. He could have just as easily had them run after Jeyne.

Successful ambushes can rely on this type of thinking. I'm sorry but Jeyne dying was better than starting a war all over again.

Um, are you forgetting something ? When he gave that oath to Catelyn, all three of them believed that Sansa and Arya were safe in KL. But when Jaime and Brienne finally get there, they find that Arya had disappeared immediately following Ned's death, and no one has been able to find her (including LF and Varys) and she is presumed dead. Sansa too has now simply vanished, following Joffrey's death and again, people have been looking for her without success. So being realistic, what exactly did you propose that Jaime

should

do? What can he do that hasn't already been done? It may be a fairly forlorn hope, but sending Brienne quietly off alone probably stands a much better chance than if Jaime openly abandoned things in KL and went off on the search too. And if he happens to find out information while in KL, he can take whatever steps he can. Don't accuse Jaime of being dishonourable when the entire situaiton has changed and he has no reasonable way of keeping his oath!

Not to mention that there is the small matter of Sansa being wanted by Cersei. It was probably better to be discreet...

He's much like his father, he doesn't realize the perception of the deeds isn't what matters, it's the deeds themselves that have the meaning.

Uh, people in this forum have been telling me the opposite for months now. Tywin had no problem with doing deeds. He just didn't give a damn, or not enough, how people would react. To be fair it has worked out for him

.

I'm of the opinion that saving Kings Landing outweighs Bran and failing Elia. The twincest is a victimless crime by itself, if a bit reckless but if you get caught you would reasonably expect Jaime and Cersei to die and no one else, a risk Jaime took.

Except it wasn't. There were his children to consider. Fuck your sister all you want, but when the kids are born it stops being just about you. Victimless is a stretch.

yes but later on cersi says that they could have brow beaten the boy into saying he say nothing, or just call him a lair, and jaime even agreed that yeah that was probably true. he threw the boy from the window because he wasn't a smart man, he always acted too quickly, impatient, impulsive, the same kind of behavior that got him captured in the whispering Woods and his army smashed and scattered at the battle of the camps

We've had an entire thread on this issue, and what it boils down to is simple; the chances that a child will keep a terrible secret from his parents, against the lives of the woman you love and her children. There is no situation there were it is not better to just be safe about the issue. Cersei can talk a big game but she was the one that wanted to cut off Arya's hand, hurting kids clearly isn't a problem for her. Thinking fast doesn't mean that you haven't considered all the possibilities.

Of course, whether he should have been there at all is another issue...

A sociopath is born the way he is but Jaime became the way he is through experience and did not enter it untill being a young adult.

Not strictly true, there are social sociopaths, people who learn to be that way, and they generally tend to be in gangs and mobs and learn this behavior as....young adults.

[bloodymime]

@bloodymime

As to the cloak/armor, this is what happened: "Jaime had slipped in through the king's door, clad in his golden armor, sword in hand. The golden armor, not the white, but no one ever remembers that. Would that I had taken off that damned cloak as well."

@everyone bashing Jaime

As to defending Jaime's honor, I must ask for a brief reprieve for the purposes of sleep. Tomorrow?

Thank you, you're right I got these lines mixed up in my head. "so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame."

[The Frosted King]

Well, if Jaime wants people to think he has some fundamental honor and decency, a good plan would to be start acting with some small measure of honor and basic decency. However, other than doing things for his family/ patriarch rather than his wicked sister, constantly thinking Cersei is a whore, thinking well of Robert Baratheon, and oggling nearly every attractive woman he meets now a la Tyrion, Jaime has not changed. At all.

Well, for one thing, he could stop being an amoral, sociopathic oathbreaker. Before he even gets started with the whole PR campaign of "Jaime Lannister-- a really nice guy now!" it is necessary that, he, you know, actually become a nice guy and act with fundamental decency in his daily dealings.

Jaime is as much of an "amoral, sociopathic oathbreaker" as ever because:

Amoral: He follows no set code of morality. Despite being presented more negatively before because he was doing everything for his sister and Cersei's vagina is apparently the path to all evil, Jaime still is selfish, without scruples, and basically amoral (at best.) Which leads me to:

Sociopathic: The act that Jaime is most reviled for by readers was his choice to murder a child in order to protect his secret. Yet, Jaime is more willing than ever to murder a defenseless child, as he proved with the Edmure scenario. He reflects himself several times that he would have surely gone through with his threats to murder a baby simply because he feels the need to be feared/ taken seriously. He also ordered his soldiers to kill Jeyne Westerilng if she so much as tried to run, an order which shocked even the soldiers he ordered to do so. There is no reason why he has to say, "shoot first, ask questions later" here. He could have just as easily had them run after Jeyne.

He is still willing to kill children. Now not for the sake of his love, but for his own reputation and the interests of his dynasty/ family. And the current moral attrocities seem utterly worse to me, since at least with Bran he threw the boy in a moment of panic, rather spontaneously. Here he acted slowly and deliberately, willing to murder an infant after carefully thinking through the issue.

In addition to thinking Cersei's a whore now, though, he is "moral" in that he thinks Robert is, to quote grrm, "basically a good guy in a lot of ways,"and that committing adultery and allowing Cersei to thwart the mighty partriarchy was treasonous and evil and an offense deserving of death. (On her part, but, for some reason, not on his own.) In this he seems to concur with the opinions of his creator.

An oathbreaker: Jaime continues to break oaths-- not desperately, under duress as he did before (with Aerys.) But knowingly, deliberately, while weakly excusing and mitigating and justifying his actions in his own minds every step of the way. He did not do everything he could to ensure the freedom and safety of the Stark girls, as he promised Cat. Instead, he gave up looking for them the moment the going got tough, sent Brienne off on a suicidal fools mission, and went back to selfishly pursuing his own interests the moment he could. He also spent copious amounts of time sexually obsessing over his sister.

Furthermore, he breaks his promise to Cat about not taking up sword against the Tully's in every possible sense, getting himself off on a technicality.

Honestly, Jaime is now beloved because he is presesnted more positively, but he is every bit as selfish, amoral, and faithless as when we first met him. In fact, I'd argue that at this point, he's even worse. Before, as horrible as they were, most of his attrocities were done in the heat of the moment, without careful prior deliberation-- often protecting something, whether it be his sister, Kings Landing, or what have you. Now he commits the same heinous acts of child murder and oathbreaking after careful deliberation. He just never fails to think what a filthy whore his sister is while doing them, so he is presented positively and everyone loves him now.

And yes, he will inevitably and predictably end up strangling Cersei, and readers will doubtlessly cheer him on for it. Personally I find this ironic, since Jaime is perhaps the only signficant character in these books who does not deserve to murder Cersei.

Just a question..

You don't feel Cersei was wrong for putting horns on the king?

Oh and Jaime has no true sense of honor.

He's got an honor code of convience.