The Pyre Revisited

[Lord Damian]

Dany wasn't injured by Drogon's flames in ADWD because she ducked underneath them and dodged them. She isn't damaged by the "furnace wind" that Drogon blows, but Quentyn equally withstands a "furnace wind" that Rhaegal unleashed. The only difference is, Dany was able to dodge Drogon's flame (I think the "furnace wind" is a warm-up before fire is actually unleashed; it serves the same function for both dragons), while Quentyn was hit head-on when Rhaegal unleashed his fire. If Dany had taken Drogon's fire head-on instead of ducking it, she would have been incinerated. Only Dany's hair gets burned in the fighting pit, and it doesn't take much for that to happen, and it doesn't necessarily mean that other parts of her would have burned. Whereas her clothing burned off in the funeral pyre, her tunic isn't singed at all from the fighting pit. Why? Because she didn't get close enough to the fire for her clothing (or any other part of her, except her hair) to burn. So I don't see how anyone can make any claim that the fighting pit constitutes another "fireproof" moment when 1. her hands were burned just by touching the spear, and 2. her clothing (and thus her body) shows no evidence of being in contact with the actual fire. If her clothing had been singed or burned off but she herself was unscathed, you might have a point. But that wasn't the case.

So again, Dany is not fireproof. And I dare say that before the series is over, that will be confirmed explicitly, beyond debate, much to several people's shock, apparently.

ETA: And for the record, I took the "probably not" to mean, "Dany will probably not have another fireproof moment," not, "Dany will probably not ever hatch another dragon egg." The question was about fire resistance, not hatching eggs.

ETA2: I'm sorry, but does no one else see how nutty this is? The author says, multiple times, "No, Targaryens are not immune to fire." He says that Dany's thing was a one-off and that it "probably" won't happen again. He doesn't say, "All Targs except Dany can be killed by fire." He doesn't say, "Dany will probably have another fireproof event." He says nothing about dragons giving humans fireproof powers (it was a question asking such a thing that prompted him to say Targs aren't fireproof). He takes great pains to show that plenty of Targs who got big heads died stupid, gruesome deaths related to fire. He says nothing that would suggest that Dany is a Super-Targ. The only thing he suggests is that the funeral pyre event was "miraculous" and would not be repeated, which I don't think anyone disagrees with. Yet people still cling to the idea that Stormbrat is fireproof. I honestly don't get it.

:agree: Yep, Dany is dillusional at this point. She had an urge to go into the fire with her baby, Drogo and MMD. MMD's magic was carjacked and she hit the LOTTERY sort of speak. Ever since then, Dany has thought of herself as a DEMIGOD. She is in for a rude awakening. Most likely from one of her own children.

[namtose]

Really interesting.

It is interesting because we keep trying to find out the X factor that caused these dragons to hatch, while the Summerhall dragons failed, despite having what appear to be nearly identical "ingredients." People keep pointing to Dany as being that X factor, but if, as I said, the dragons were well on their way to hatching before she really got into the pyre to them, that makes it seem like she herself was incidental in the whole thing. I'm sure she would remember it differently. :P

I have thought that 'power' for hatching the eggs was blood magic of sacrificing of a powerful magician in MMD. As she dies her life force hatches the eggs hence just after her death and before Dany walks into the flames the dragons quicken and the eggs begin to hatch.

As mentioned the Targs are not magically inclined and so their attempts in the past have all failed. They used spells and magical horns to control the original three but that knowledge and resources have been lost.

[Howling Mad]

IIRC (I couldn't locate it in the SSM) GRRM referred to the dragons as the equivalent of nuclear weapons. IMO this reference supports the concept of the dragons as a sword without a hilt. Dragons like nuclear weapons once deployed and/or used influence people and events in bizzare and unpredictable ways.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I noticed this, too. For someone who thinks (after the fact) that she can repeat an unburnt miracle, she sure as hell was trying to dodge Drogon's flames in the fighting pit.

For the record, I think that's ultimately how she's going to die, whether she ends up being benevolent or malevolent.

Don't think it will be her downfall, but i do think it will be a embarrassing/humbling moment...ohh you're blood of the dragon/fire proof, prove it, gets burned...and i don't d dislike dany, but i think it will be an important character moment

[Kittyhat]

Sort of skimmed to the end, but just a couple of quick thoughts ...

1. "Dany dodged Drogon's flames." Yeah, right. Yes, I know what the passage in the book said, and it may even be how Daenerys remembers the event, but that sort of falls under this trope. If we see more evidence in the future of Dany's Matrix-dodging skills and fire's inability to be hot at all anywhere but where you physically touch the visible flames, we'll talk more about this theory. Until then, heh ... no.

2. In the TV series at least, season one, Daenerys picks up one of the eggs from the brazier, and then her handmaiden tries to take it from her and burns her hands. Dany's hands are unburnt. I don't recall offhand whether that event actually occurred in the books (it's been too long since I read A Game of Thrones), but even if it didn't expressly occur in the books, why would co-producer George R. R. Martin himself allow such a significant and significantly inaccurate scene to be included? Given how badly it would skew the story if there's really nothing special about Daenerys with respect to fire, it would border on allowing the TV series to become an entirely different story altogether.

No. I refuse to believe Martin is that stupid. It was included because it was accurate. There is something going on with Daenerys and fire, something special. Maybe not all Targs, no, or even most ... but Dany? Yes.

[The guy from the Vale]

Sort of skimmed to the end, but just a couple of quick thoughts ...

1. "Dany dodged Drogon's flames." Yeah, right. Yes, I know what the passage in the book said, and it may even be how Daenerys remembers the event, but that sort of falls under this trope. If we see more evidence in the future of Dany's Matrix-dodging skills and fire's inability to be hot at all anywhere but where you physically touch the visible flames, we'll talk more about this theory. Until then, heh ... no.

2. In the TV series at least, season one, Daenerys picks up one of the eggs from the brazier, and then her handmaiden tries to take it from her and burns her hands. Dany's hands are unburnt. I don't recall offhand whether that event actually occurred in the books (it's been too long since I read A Game of Thrones), but even if it didn't expressly occur in the books, why would co-producer George R. R. Martin himself allow such a significant and significantly inaccurate scene to be included? Given how badly it would skew the story if there's really nothing special about Daenerys with respect to fire, it would border on allowing the TV series to become an entirely different story altogether.

No. I refuse to believe Martin is that stupid. It was included because it was accurate. There is something going on with Daenerys and fire, something special. Maybe not all Targs, no, or even most ... but Dany? Yes.

on 2) In the book, the opposite happens. Dany thinks the eggs are very hot, while the handmaiden can handle them without a problem.

[Kittyhat]

on 2) In the book, the opposite happens. Dany thinks the eggs are very hot, while the handmaiden can handle them without a problem.

Can you quote the passage? I don't have my physical copy of the book anymore, and I got my Kindle after I'd already read it.

I'd be rather astonished to learn Martin actually let that get reversed, if in fact it's really true.

[The guy from the Vale]

Sorry, lended(sp?) my copy to my girl friend, so no direct backing it up possible for me right now. If someone else could look that one up I'd be delighted, though.

[Vic-tarion Rattlehead]

Can you quote the passage? I don't have my physical copy of the book anymore, and I got my Kindle after I'd already read it.

I'd be rather astonished to learn Martin actually let that get reversed, if in fact it's really true.

There is this passage in Dany's POV chapter (one befor her last), it features Mormont, not a handmaiden:

"

Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing

over the other dragon’s eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as

hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. “Ser Jorah, come here,”

she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. “What

do you feel?”

“Shell, hard as rock.” The knight was wary. “Scales.”

“Heat?”

“No. Cold stone.” He took his hand away."

[kissdbyfire]

2. In the TV series at least, season one, Daenerys picks up one of the eggs from the brazier, and then her handmaiden tries to take it from her and burns her hands. Dany's hands are unburnt. I don't recall offhand whether that event actually occurred in the books (it's been too long since I read A Game of Thrones), but even if it didn't expressly occur in the books, why would co-producer George R. R. Martin himself allow such a significant and significantly inaccurate scene to be included? Given how badly it would skew the story if there's really nothing special about Daenerys with respect to fire, it would border on allowing the TV series to become an entirely different story altogether.

No. I refuse to believe Martin is that stupid. It was included because it was accurate. There is something going on with Daenerys and fire, something special. Maybe not all Targs, no, or even most ... but Dany? Yes.

There's an interview with GRRM where he talks about this. I think it's the one @googletalks but I'm not sure. But what he says is something to the effect of 'the books are my babies, the TV series is D&D's'. And he goes on to say that things like the one you mention can and will happen.

[Blisscraft]

And if it's "rare" and "special" and "just happens," then that implies that it can't be replicated at will. And if it can't be replicated at will, then I don't see how anyone could attribute what happened on the pyre to some "power" of Dany's.

Dany's only "special power" is bringing the eggs to the pyre in the first place. For whatever reason, Dany is aware that the eggs are not pertrified. What happens on the pyre is a confluence of events. The rare, the special, the miracle. No voodoo, gris gris, or witchcraft.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

There's an interview with GRRM where he talks about this. I think it's the one @googletalks but I'm not sure. But what he says is something to the effect of 'the books are my babies, the TV series is D&D's'. And he goes on to say that things like the one you mention can and will happen.

I remember seeing that. Stuff like that, in my opinion, is not fair game when discussing the book canon. It just isn't, especially with this season also digressing so much from Clash. I mean, if we're going to say that Dany in the books must be heatproof because of a part in the show that wasn't in the book, can we also finally admit that the "Targaryen affinity" that dragons have is bullshit because the dragons "love" Doreah (who's supposed to be dead by now, by the way)? Is Doreah a secret Targaryen or something? :rolleyes:

ETA: For the record, if gullible people want to completely disregard what GRRM has said about Targaryens and fire and take the show's discrepancy as canon, I can't stop them. The truth's going to come out at some point, I think that's telegraphed pretty strongly. My main interest in shooting down the "Targs are fireproof!" nonsense is keeping people from using that inaccuracy to handicap other ideas they might have. I've actually seen people suggest that Jon can't be Rhaegar's son because he burned his hand or that Viserys must not be Dany's real brother because the gold killed him. Ridiculous.

[Blisscraft]

:agree:

[tze]

I agree that when the show deviates from the books, those deviations can't be accepted as book canon, for pretty obvious reasons. (And notice how even the show kept in the bits where Mirri very expressly sings on the pyre and Dany doesn't enter the flames until Mirri's song is ended by the flames reaching her and changing her song into screams. If anything, a connection between the two events seems even clearer as portrayed in the show.) But obviously this isn't the place for discussing the show, so I'll stop there.

I've found this whole topic to be fascinating; the mysterious nature of MMD's spells, her connection to Marwyn

The Marwyn factor is one of the (many) reasons I think the pyre/Mirri issue could be set to re-enter the narrative. GRRM made sure to point out that Marwyn was one of Mirri's teachers---what was their relationship like? Were they friends? Lovers? Does he know Dany burned his old student alive, and do we think that might become a factor in any future Marwyn/Dany interactions?

In ADWD, Quaithe appears and says, "Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame . . . " We've been told Marwyn's glass candles are burning at the Citadel. At first I thought "the glass candles are burning" was a reference to the rise of some particular magic, but now I'm wondering if Quaithe was obliquely warning Mirri about Marwyn? (I still think "Dark Flame" is Moqorro.) Marwyn seems to hate the maesters' anti-magic attitude, seems very on-board with the idea of dragons existing once more, and tells Sam he wants to get to Dany to thwart the other maesters' anti-magic schemes. But how will he feel about Dany if/when he finds out about Mirri? GRRM didn't have to describe Mirri as Marwyn's old student, but adding in that tidbit can logically lead to Mirri's death coming back to haunt Dany in a pretty big way if/when Marwyn arrives.

And Marwyn seems like someone uniquely suited to being able to point out a connection between Mirri's magic and the pyre, given his study of sorcery and (probable) firsthand knowledge of Mirri's methods. I mean, assuming he doesn't just randomly die en route, then you'd think a maester who studies sorcery would want to know everything about exactly how those dragon eggs hatched. And he'd logically want to know exactly how MIrri died, both for scholarly and personal reasons. The fact that the fire immunity/egg hatching only occurred after the witch sang (and had her song interrupted) would probably be rather notable to someone like Marwyn.

[Bran Vras]

One little point seems to have been overlooked: Mirri has given strange beverages to Dany while she was recovering from the delivery of her child. This is when Dany wakes up from her fever dreams, and is found lying on the carpet craving dragon eggs.

And then Mirri Maz Duur was there, the maegi, tipping a cup against her lips. She tasted sour milk, and something else, something thick and bitter. Warm liquid ran down her chin. Somehow she swallowed. The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream. She floated, serene and at peace, on a black sea that knew no shore.

The "something else" reminds me of (Bran, ADwD)

Inside was a white paste, thick and heavy, with dark red veins running through it. [...] It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter?

Of course both beverage are similar but not identical, Mirri and Bloodraven are different sorcerers, Bran and Dany experience different things. But it seems that certain magical beverages can be used to control people's visions and dreams. There is another example in the house of the Undying, and Dany's visions in that place under the influence of the shade of the evening are very similar to the fever dreams she experienced before Mirri gave her the potion.

That Dany was manipulated by Mirri through the beverage is the only explanation I can find of the irrational determination to burn on the pyre. Dany had been dreaming obsessively over "waking the dragon" before being given the beverage. I don't know if the drink played also a role in the fire immunity, but I note that the relationship of Dany to heat changed after she woke up (She felt heat in the dragon eggs as Jorah Mormont could not. But I guess that can be interpreted in various ways).

So, until new evidence comes to light, I will consider that Mirri Maz Durr manipulated Dany for the birth of the dragons. For what reason, I can't say. Perhaps we will know through Marwyn, or even Jorah Mormont.

(To appreciate the importance of the Mirri's power as a midwife, and her birthing songs, it's perhaps interesting to recall this little exchange

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs...”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied.)

PS: about burning candles. One warlock in Qarth has burning candles. This is what Quaithe refers to, I think.

[Kittyhat]

ETA: For the record, if gullible people want to completely disregard what GRRM has said about Targaryens and fire and take the show's discrepancy as canon, I can't stop them. The truth's going to come out at some point, I think that's telegraphed pretty strongly. My main interest in shooting down the "Targs are fireproof!" nonsense is keeping people from using that inaccuracy to handicap other ideas they might have. I've actually seen people suggest that Jon can't be Rhaegar's son because he burned his hand or that Viserys must not be Dany's real brother because the gold killed him. Ridiculous.

I've never suggested Targaryens in general are special somehow in this regard. One needs only take a look at Viserys's crowning to see how stupid that line of thinking would be.

I'm not, however, sold on the idea that "Targaryens are not fireproof/special with respect to fire" means the same thing as "Daenerys in particular is not fireproof/special with respect to fire." It would be equally silly to suggest that there are no humans with green eyes simply because all humans do not have green eyes. Or that there are no Starks who are wargs simply because all Starks are not wargs.

And I definitely struggle to buy the notion that Daenerys really "dodged" dragonfire. As I said before, I'll be happy to discuss her Matrix-like speed and reflexes and the total lack of convection in Martin's universe when we have more evidence to support those things.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

One little point seems to have been overlooked: Mirri has given strange beverages to Dany while she was recovering from the delivery of her child. This is when Dany wakes up from her fever dreams, and is found lying on the carpet craving dragon eggs.

The "something else" reminds me of (Bran, ADwD)

Of course both beverage are similar but not identical, Mirri and Bloodraven are different sorcerers, Bran and Dany experience different things. But it seems that certain magical beverages can be used to control people's visions and dreams. There is another example in the house of the Undying, and Dany's visions in that place under the influence of the shade of the evening are very similar to the fever dreams she experienced before Mirri gave her the potion.

That Dany was manipulated by Mirri through the beverage is the only explanation I can find of the irrational determination to burn on the pyre. Dany had been dreaming obsessively over "waking the dragon" before being given the beverage. I don't know if the drink played also a role in the fire immunity, but I note that the relationship of Dany to heat changed after she woke up (She felt heat in the dragon eggs as Jorah Mormont could not. But I guess that can be interpreted in various ways).

So, until new evidence comes to light, I will consider that Mirri Maz Durr manipulated Dany for the birth of the dragons. For what reason, I can't say. Perhaps we will know through Marwyn, or even Jorah Mormont.

(To appreciate the importance of the Mirri's power as a midwife, and her birthing songs, it's perhaps interesting to recall this little exchange

PS: about burning candles. One warlock in Qarth has burning candles. This is what Quaithe refers to, I think.

interesting, don't know if it really plays and i don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't jon eat or drink something similar when the halfhand mixes berries with the horses blood thats bran (ice), dany (fire) and jon (ice and fire) all digesting something similar...like i said though don't know if jon really plays

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not, however, sold on the idea that "Targaryens are not fireproof/special with respect to fire" means the same thing as "Daenerys in particular is not fireproof/special with respect to fire." It would be equally silly to suggest that there are no humans with green eyes simply because all humans do not have green eyes. Or that there are no Starks who are wargs simply because all Starks are not wargs.

Except that Martin has never made a statement like, "STARKS ARE NOT WARGS." He's also confirmed that all six Stark children are wargs. He has never, to my knowledge, made any such claim about Dany in particular. In fact it's the opposite — he just confirms that the funeral pyre event was a one-time miracle, would probably not happen again and should not be taken to be indicative of any inherent power of Dany's. And I know people keep hanging on "probably not," but if he said, "No, Daenerys will not be immune to fire again," that all but telegraphs a plot spoiler, and obviously he wouldn't do that.

[Kittyhat]

Except that Martin has never made a statement like, "STARKS ARE NOT WARGS." He's also confirmed that all six Stark children are wargs. He has never, to my knowledge, made any such claim about Dany in particular. In fact it's the opposite — he just confirms that the funeral pyre event was a one-time miracle, would probably not happen again and should not be taken to be indicative of any inherent power of Dany's. And I know people keep hanging on "probably not," but if he said, "No, Daenerys will not be immune to fire again," that all but telegraphs a plot spoiler, and obviously he wouldn't do that.

Wellll, I'm sure we'll find out in due course one way or another, then, won't we? ;)

I confess I'm still not really buying the "dodged dragonfire" bit in the least, but once again ... we'll see by and by.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Sort of skimmed to the end, but just a couple of quick thoughts ...

1. "Dany dodged Drogon's flames." Yeah, right. Yes, I know what the passage in the book said, and it may even be how Daenerys remembers the event, but that sort of falls under this trope. If we see more evidence in the future of Dany's Matrix-dodging skills and fire's inability to be hot at all anywhere but where you physically touch the visible flames, we'll talk more about this theory. Until then, heh ... no.

Our science -- genetics, thermodynamics, cosmology -- doesn't apply to the world of ASOIAF. I've given up trying to to find a natural explanation for any phenomenon in the books; it just left me with a headache. I advise a complete suspension of disbelief.