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The Pyre Revisited


tze

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Of course both beverage are similar but not identical, Mirri and Bloodraven are different sorcerers, Bran and Dany experience different things. But it seems that certain magical beverages can be used to control people's visions and dreams.

That Dany was manipulated by Mirri through the beverage is the only explanation I can find of the irrational determination to burn on the pyre. Dany had been dreaming obsessively over "waking the dragon" before being given the beverage.

If she'd been given that potion before she started having dreams/visions, I'd agree that was a possibility---but Mirri gives her this potion after, not before, her fever dreams, so clearly this potion cannot have instigated those dreams. And Dany seemed to have been inspired by those dreams (they're filled with "wake the dragon", she dreams she is a dragon, etc.); she keeps saying "I want . . . " before Mirri gets to her. I don't see any logical way to work that potion into Dany's thought process vis a vis hatching eggs on the pyre/physically walking into the pyre, given that the things that seem to inspire her---those dreams---came before, not after, that potion.

There are actually a number of possibilities for what Mirri gave Dany:

When the milk came, Arya drank it down. It smelled a little burnt and had a bitter aftertaste.

This is the milk that makes her blind. If this substance can mess around with a person's senses, that might explain why after drinking it Dany felt heat in Drogon's egg while Jorah did not.

And remember, Mirri studied with a maester. Look at what happens after Mirri gives Dany the concoction---"The tent grew dimmer, and sleep took her again. This time she did not dream." Cersei also asked Pycelle for a potion that would give her dreamless sleep (and many have speculated that he gave her a diluted potion made of the Tears of Lys)----maybe Mirri was trying to poison Dany and got the dosage wrong? Moreover,

Robert sniffled. “Maester Colemon put something vile in my milk last night, I could taste it.

Presumably this is the "sweetsleep" Littlefinger wanted Colemon to give Robert to basically knock him out. Clearly it doesn't taste "sweet" since Robert calls it vile (and complains that he wanted, and wasn't given, something called sweetmilk, which implies that his milk was the opposite of sweet).

I don't know if the drink played also a role in the fire immunity, but I note that the relationship of Dany to heat changed after she woke up (She felt heat in the dragon eggs as Jorah Mormont could not. But I guess that can be interpreted in various ways).

I'd disagree that her "relationship" to heat inherently changed when she woke up. She was hallucinating heat, but that's not the same thing as saying she had a special relationship to it that Jorah did not. And lest we forget, when she lights the pyre, the heat is too intense for her to bear. She's backing away from the fire before Mirri starts singing, she isn't just immediately embracing the fire.

I'm not, however, sold on the idea that "Targaryens are not fireproof/special with respect to fire" means the same thing as "Daenerys in particular is not fireproof/special with respect to fire."

After the pyre, we never see Dany actually interacting with fire. ACOK, ASOS---we never see her sticking her hand in a fire, we never see her demonstrating any superhuman tolerance for heat, certainly nothing that every Dornishman (or basically everyone in Slaver's Bay) doesn't also have. If the point of the pyre was to show Dany having some special relationship with fire/heat, you'd expect GRRM to build on that throughout ACOK and ASOS (like he built on the Stark children's warging abilities). But there's nothing.

I really don't understand why it's so difficult to believe that the person we see immune to fire in the presence of a spellcasting witch, but who's nursing burned hands on the single occasion she touches something hot without a magic-user present, isn't actually naturally fireproof. Thematically, the whole point of fire as a power source in ASOIAF appears to be that nobody can use it without risking getting burned; not Melisandre, not Ancient Valyria, not House Targaryen, and not Dany herself.

And I definitely struggle to buy the notion that Daenerys really "dodged" dragonfire.

There is no physical way for that fire to have hit her body because her clothes are still intact. She's making bandages for herself out of them. Her hair clearly got set on fire (which as other threads have pointed out, is quite easy to do without actually burning the scalp), but the rest of her did not. That she tells herself the pit echoed the pyre does not mean it really did so.

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Wellll, I'm sure we'll find out in due course one way or another, then, won't we? ;)

That, I do not doubt. It might not go your way, though.

I confess I'm still not really buying the "dodged dragonfire" bit in the least, but once again ... we'll see by and by.

I promise I'm not pulling it out of my ass.

With a hisssssss, he spat fire down at her. Dany darted underneath the flames, swinging the whip and shouting, "No, no, no. Get DOWN!"

Two things:

1. Says plain as day that she ducked it, and nowhere in that passage is she described as being surrounded by, touching or engulfed in flames, the way Quentyn is. If you go back and read the pyre scene, she's very clearly within the fire and is still unburnt. Not the case here; she never actually touches it.

2. For someone so eager to convince herself that she's the Unburnt, she sure as shit makes sure not to be in the flames' way. ;)

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That, I do not doubt. It might not go your way, though.

I promise I'm not pulling it out of my ass.

Two things:

1. Says plain as day that she ducked it, and nowhere in that passage is she described as being surrounded by, touching or engulfed in flames, the way Quentyn is. If you go back and read the pyre scene, she's very clearly within the fire and is still unburnt. Not the case here; she never actually touches it.

2. For someone so eager to convince herself that she's the Unburnt, she sure as shit makes sure not to be in the flames' way. ;)

I like how you only believe in unreliable narrators when it suits you.

Yes, I realize what the passage said, but I don't buy it. Memory is a funny thing, especially in panic situations. In the heat of the moment (pun somewhat intended), it would be very easy to remember "dodging" the fire. It's a good deal less easy to believe that it actually happened that way.

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I like how you only believe in unreliable narrators when it suits you.

I like how you're tripping over yourself to believe that Dany has some magical powers when the freaking author himself has said that she doesn't. If this were about any other character and GRRM said that their experience was a one-time thing and wouldn't happen again, would you really believe otherwise? You just want to believe that she has this ability because, for whatever reason, you like the character. But that doesn't mean she does and it doesn't take away from the author's own assertion that she doesn't.

I like Jon, but if someone asked GRRM if he was still alive and he replied, "Probably not," I would ACCEPT IT.

Yes, I realize what the passage said, but I don't buy it. Memory is a funny thing, especially in panic situations. In the heat of the moment (pun somewhat intended), it would be very easy to remember "dodging" the fire. It's a good deal less easy to believe that it actually happened that way.

It's not just that it "says" that she dodged the fire. The physical evidence suggests that she did. Namely, her clothes are not only intact, they're not burned at all. Even when she survived the funeral pyre, her clothes still burned off. The tunic she wore in the pit isn't even singed. Why isn't it singed? Because the goddamn fire never touched it.

And actually, it would suit Dany's "legend in her own mind" more if she DIDN'T remember dodging the fire. What better way to cement her fireproof powers in her mind than to remember being engulfed in flames again and surviving? You suggest that she misremembers dodging it, when in fact she'd be better served in the delusional identity she's crafted for herself if she tricked herself into thinking that she had touched the fire. Which, in the end, she does — she thinks that she did have another fireproof event, when that wasn't the case. Her "memory" (which, as you say, is unreliable) in the Dothraki Sea doesn't match up with the actual wording of the sequence as it happened.

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I like how you're tripping over yourself to believe that Dany has some magical powers when the freaking author himself has said that she doesn't.

Has he? Because I don't recall any case where he came right out and said any such thing.

And while you're right that she was not shown to be set on fire (not that fire always instantly sets on fire every flammable thing it touches), where's the convection? You don't have to be set on fire to get burns. Trust me; I know that very well.

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quick question. Does anyone have an image of the precise recipe for dragons? Specifically, do people get the sense that it is imperative that the one trying to birth dragons walk into the fire, or is this something Dany chooses to do symbolically (due massive delusions) that may not even have had anything to do with the dragons hatching? It might not matter, but a small point I'm unclear about.

As a separate thought, I'm very much in the camp that doubts Dany's "specialness" as the important factor in why dragon hatching finally works. But I wonder if there isn't something about her specifically that leads to the dragons hatching that would also fall under the "be careful for what you wish for," like her bloodlust/ blindness of rage (not "good" qualities that make her a desirable candidate for dragons, but something inherent in her that ensures she'll hoist herself by her own petard). I think it's a really convincing argument that she benefits from someone else's blunder (and her arc shows similar political "successes" that reinforce this idea, for sure), but I wonder if we're supposed to negate that much of her own agency or person in this matter. (I'm trying to be open-minded to the possibility that places the dragons more squarely on Dany).

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And if it's "rare" and "special" and "just happens," then that implies that it can't be replicated at will. And if it can't be replicated at will, then I don't see how anyone could attribute what happened on the pyre to some "power" of Dany's.

Dany is 'special' by nature of her royal blood. That gives her special power in a sense. Kings blood is particularly powerful according to Melissandre. By western medieval tradition royalty is special, and the higher royal blood you have the more special you are. Kings ruled by divine right. We don't think of these things today, but back in the middle ages that was the notion. Dany isn't 'powerful' in MMO or roleplaying game sense, but in the traditional literary sense, she is.

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If she'd been given that potion before she started having dreams/visions, I'd agree that was a possibility---but Mirri gives her this potion after, not before, her fever dreams, so clearly this potion cannot have instigated those dreams. And Dany seemed to have been inspired by those dreams (they're filled with "wake the dragon", she dreams she is a dragon, etc.); she keeps saying "I want . . . " before Mirri gets to her. I don't see any logical way to work that potion into Dany's thought process vis a vis hatching eggs on the pyre/physically walking into the pyre, given that the things that seem to inspire her---those dreams---came before, not after, that potion.

I should perhaps have added (it was in the back of my mind) that it is not clear whether the beverage was given a single time. During her fever, Dany presumably drank several time more or less consciously, Mirri Maz Durr was around, and might have administered her "remedy", or other "remedies" on several occasions. Dany just remembered one occasion.

But I am not sure this interpretation is correct, or even that I like it. Indeed, Dany seems to have gone from feverish state to absolute calmness after ingesting the concoction. That curiously makes me think that the magical effect reached a deeper level of the psyche than simply dream state, and therefore was more powerful – just my impression. In other words perhaps, in my speculative interpretation, the potion had the effect of cementing the suggestion implanted by the fever dreams.

In any case, we seem to agree Mirri was active during the feverish episode and that the beverage is not innocuous. If she wanted to preserve her life, she could probably have fled in the confusion when the khalasar disbanded. So she stayed for Dany to manipulate the situation. (What help she got from Mormont is an interesting question though.)

About the explanation for the fire immunity, I keep options open, but I still lean towards what you suggest: Mirri's song.

interesting, don't know if it really plays and i don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't jon eat or drink something similar when the halfhand mixes berries with the horses blood thats bran (ice), dany (fire) and jon (ice and fire) all digesting something similar...like i said though don't know if jon really plays

That's a nice observation. Yes there might have been something in the porridge Qhorin prepared for Jon and Co. The last Jon chapter of ACoK is fascinating, and one has the feeling that Qhorin Halfhand is doing something that we don't understand.

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Another thing to note on this discussion: I've seen several people mention that Mirri 'miscast' her spell. That's representative of a frame of mind stuck in video games or D+D. Magic in Westeros doesnt work like that. You don't know 'spells' to use magic. People in Westeros invoke mysterious and dangerous supernatural forces, with unpredictable results. Magic exists, but harnessing it is challenging and most people feel it is better left alone.

Clearly something was invoked at the funeral pyre, and both Mirri and Dany were involved with it. You combine the blood sacrifice of a relatively powerful blood magician, with Dany's potent royal blood and lineage, and some of the last artifacts of focused magic (ancient dragons eggs). Essentially that creates an uncontrolled supernatural 'event'. You have Mirri summoning supernatural spirits and powers, exacerbated by her own blood sacrifice. Dany's lineage and willpower is the focus for the supernatural forces, and the dragons eggs become the vessels that absorb the available supernatural power. The end result is a conjunction that reanimates the eggs and allows the dragons to hatch.

My take is that you could not have this conjunction without all three major pieces in place. Dany's followers believing in her so strongly probably help, and the recent passing of the red comet is certainly a factor as well. The best we are going to be able to do is identify the building blocks for the event. The specifics will never be revealed. This is magic and supernatural power, not science.

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Dany is 'special' by nature of her royal blood. That gives her special power in a sense. Kings blood is particularly powerful according to Melissandre. By western medieval tradition royalty is special, and the higher royal blood you have the more special you are. Kings ruled by divine right. We don't think of these things today, but back in the middle ages that was the notion. Dany isn't 'powerful' in MMO or roleplaying game sense, but in the traditional literary sense, she is.

Half the major families in Westeros have "king's blood," including the Starks, the Lannisters, the Arryns, the Baratheons, the Martells, the Greyjoys, etc. That's to say nothing of the few dozen bastards guys like Aegon IV have left strewn around, or the descendants of those families who married into other houses. Most of the major families in Westeros have king's blood somewhere down the line. Also, I wouldn't take Melisandre's word as gospel on just about anything. For all the talk she's said about king's blood, has she ever actually accomplished anything by using it?

Has he? Because I don't recall any case where he came right out and said any such thing.

And while you're right that she was not shown to be set on fire (not that fire always instantly sets on fire every flammable thing it touches), where's the convection? You don't have to be set on fire to get burns. Trust me; I know that very well.

What part of, "Targaryens are not immune to fire and what happened with Dany is a miracle and she probably won't ever be immune to fire again" is unclear? I really don't understand why you so willfully ignore that, unless you just really want to believe that Dany has some power.

As for the convection problem, take it up with Martin. It seems like dramatic license on his part more so than a sneaky attempt to make Dany fireproof again. If it had been meant to show her fireproof "power" again, don't you think he would have been a little more, you know, up-front about it? Perhaps by saying, "Dany was engulfed in the flame, but she wasn't actually burning" or something to that effect, the way he wrote it the one time she actually did survive a fire?

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Half the major families in Westeros have "king's blood," including the Starks, the Lannisters, the Arryns, the Baratheons, the Martells, the Greyjoys, etc. That's to say nothing of the few dozen bastards guys like Aegon IV have left strewn around, or the descendants of those families who married into other houses. Most of the major families in Westeros have king's blood somewhere down the line. Also, I wouldn't take Melisandre's word as gospel on just about anything. For all the talk she's said about king's blood, has she ever actually accomplished anything by using it?

Melissandre was able to cause the deaths of at least 2 very powerful men through supernatural means. She invoked the supernatural by channeling through Stannis's vitality. She also either foresaw the deaths of Ned and Balon Greyjoy, or outright caused them via supernatural means.

Lineage mattered very much to medieval society, which this story is modeled after. King's blood is important, as has been reiterated many times in the books.

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Specifically, do people get the sense that it is imperative that the one trying to birth dragons walk into the fire, or is this something Dany chooses to do symbolically (due massive delusions) that may not even have had anything to do with the dragons hatching? It might not matter, but a small point I'm unclear about.

I've been wondering about that myself. The sequence appears (from what I can see) to go like this: Dany lights the pyre, finds the heat unbearable, and backs away from the flames. She watches the fire spread toward the platform where Drogo/Mirri/Drogo's possessions/the eggs are waiting. Mirri's song starts as the fire starts, and continues (eventually turning to screams) as the flames reach her. As she watches the flames engulf Drogo's body, Dany thinks to herself,

Part of her wanted to go to him as Ser Jorah had feared, to rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.

This is actually a rather interesting thought, because it tells us two things: first, that Dany wasn't necessarily thinking all along of walking into the flames; second, that she seems to think, at this juncture, that if she walks into the flames, she'll fry. This makes sense, given that she's shown no "resistance" to this pyre yet, as when she lit it, the heat was too much to bear.

Dany smells roasting flesh, Miri's still screaming, the smoke grows thicker, and the Dothraki start backing away. Dany describes the fire in-depth, doesn't back away with the rest, but still isn't physically in the fire.

She "[takes] a step closer to the conflagration" (meaning she still hasn't physically entered the flames), starts sililoqizing about the fire, Mirri falls silent. Then,

Another step, and Dany could feel the heat of the sand on the soles of her feet, even through her sandals.

She's walking on heated ground, but apparently not yet on actual fire. She sweats copiously, people behind her are yelling, but she doesn't yet appear to physically be in the fire.

Her vest had begun to smolder, so Dany shrugged it off and let it fall to the ground. The painted leather burst into sudden flame as she skipped closer to the fire, her breasts bare to the blaze,

It's not really clear if she's yet reached the fire, but I doubt she has. Clearly she's close enough for her vest to smolder, but the description of it first smoldering, then bursting into "sudden" flame when it hits the ground, implies to me that she's close enough for the heat and sparks to ignite her vest, but not so close that she's physicallys standing in flame (otherwise the vest would have logically been described as falling into the fire, not "to the ground". And also, if the vest had fallen into a fire, describing it as "burst[ing] into sudden flame" makes no sense.). Not to mention, the fact that she describes herself as "skipp[ing closer to the fire" tells me she isn't physically in the fire just yet.

She sees a vision of Khal Drogo in the flames, then hears the first crack (Viserion hatching). The platform starts falling in upon itself, objects start falling at her feet, and she's "showered with ash and cinders". She describes smoke "stirr[ing] and whirl[ing] around her", and hears Ser Jorah cursing and calling her name. I don't think she's physically engulfed in flame yet, as she describes being hit by basically everything but flame. (And if Ser Jorah sees her engulfed in flame without being harmed, why curse? That he's doing that implies, to me, that he thinks she's in danger, which would cut against the notion she's physically reached the actual flames yet.) She hears people behind her crying out "through the firefall". but it's not really clear to me if the flames have merely spread out behind her or if she's standing in fire as well. She hears the seond crack. Then,

With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

Then she hears the third crack, like "the breaking of the world."

Basically, it's not really 100% clear to me when she became physically engulfed in flame. She's clearly in the flames when the third egg hatches, there's a decent chance (but still not 100%) that she's in the flames when the second egg hatches, but was she in the flames when the first egg hatched? She's skipping "closer to the fire", she sees Drogo "before her", the first egg hatches, then the platform starts collapsing. But she never describes when, exactly, the flames touched her skin.

Basically, I think it could go either way. This sequence of events is told from Dany's POV, and she seems to describe everything except the exact moment when she stuck her flesh directly into the flames.

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I don't buy the king's blood argument. It's been stated many times, yes, but it's been repeatedly proven that there is no magical value to king's blood throughout the story (what do the bloody leeches actually accomplish, for example?) The king's blood thing has been used as propaganda to inspire trust in certain individuals who wish to appear more powerful than they may be, but thus far we see no concrete proof that there's any value to it.

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Melissandre was able to cause the deaths of at least 2 very powerful men through supernatural means. She invoked the supernatural by channeling through Stannis's vitality. She also either foresaw the deaths of Ned and Balon Greyjoy, or outright caused them via supernatural means.

She implied that she could also create a shadowbaby with Davos, and I'm pretty sure he has no king's blood.

And which powerful men's deaths did she "cause," other than Renly's? Because the Tyrells and Littlefinger killed Joffrey, the Freys and Boltons killed Robb, and Euron hired a Faceless Man to kill Balon. I remember where she pulled a cheap stunt with leeches to fool Stannis. I do not remember her actually playing a causal role in any of their deaths.

Lineage mattered very much to medieval society, which this story is modeled after. King's blood is important, as has been reiterated many times in the books.

Royal lineage that, as I said, many, many, many families in Westeros also have. And just because something is "reiterated" doesn't mean it's the case. Don't look at what people SAY, look at what they DO.

Lineage mattered in a medieval society insofar as it allowed the easy passing-down of titles and property. It was not, if I can remember my history, important as it related to fantasy magic.

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In other words perhaps, in my speculative interpretation, the potion had the effect of cementing the suggestion implanted by the fever dreams.

For that to happen, though, Mirri would have to have known what Dany was dreaming---presumably, she'd have to have been the person implanting the fever dreams in the first place. It seems that Dany's handmaidens and Jorah were with her when she was "ill"---you'd think they'd have mentioned that the witch who'd just done something unnatural to Khal Drogo had also been doing something weird to Dany, given that we haven't seen or heard mention of any particular drink being able to grant a specific dream. And these were really specific dreams, filled with personal knowledge that Mirri wouldn't have had access to. And unlike Bran's dream of the three-eyed crow, Mirri herself doesn't seem present, in any form, in this particular dream, so it seems unlikely to me that she was able to manipulate Dany to that extent.

In any case, we seem to agree Mirri was active during the feverish episode and that the beverage is not innocuous.

I think it could go either way. Mirri could have been trying to poison her, drug her, etc. To me, the fact that we only see Dany drinking this once, and she immedately falls into a dreamless sleep, heavily implies that this potion wasn't actually responsible for her prior dreams.

If she wanted to preserve her life, she could probably have fled in the confusion when the khalasar disbanded. So she stayed for Dany to manipulate the situation.

I think we both agree that MIrri likely didn't think her life was worth living anymore, but as I've said previously, I don't think Mirri was executing some great plan to give Dany of all people the ultimate destructive weapon. (Some great plan to give Mirri baby dragons? It's possible, and I don't think that notion should be immediately discounted, though I lean toward the interpretation that Mirri didn't want those eggs hatched at all. Some great plan to get Dany to accidentally kill herself by walking into the flames? Possible, but needlessly complicated---Mirri could have just poisoned her.)

I think Mirri wanted Dany to know exactly what had happened (that Dany had played a part in her unborn child's death), and I think Mirri wanted to be killed (since she'd lost everything). But as I've said upthread, I sincerely doubt that Mirri's ultimate goal was to burn alive (a hideous death) in a way that permitted Dany's destructive powers to be monumentally increased.

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Slightly off topic: You know what has always bothered me about the whole magical Dany bonfire? That Jorah, who loves her, does not stop her. He knows she is thinking about immolating herself--yet he still lets her get close enough to the fire to waltz on in. How come?

(Great analysis tze by the way)

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This "Dany is immune to fire" topic seems to have been discussed quite often on this forum, and I just feel that GRRM's quote on the subject was meant to put an end to this sort of speculation ... In the same sense that he seems to have tried to put an end to the "Syrio Forel is alive" sentiment to keep people from expecting him to write a scene in which Arya is imperiled and all of a sudden Syrio pops out and saves the day. If he wanted to be vague on the subject so people thought that she might have an immunity, I doubt he would have said anything at all. Also, wouldn't some of the spectators of the events in the fighting pit (like Barristan) have commented on on how miraculous it was that she survived Drogons firebreath if he did attack her in that way. I don't recall any such comments (although I could be wrong since I dont have the material in front of me).

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This "Dany is immune to fire" topic seems to have been discussed quite often on this forum, and I just feel that GRRM's quote on the subject was meant to put an end to this sort of speculation ... In the same sense that he seems to have tried to put an end to the "Syrio Forel is alive" sentiment to keep people from expecting him to write a scene in which Arya is imperiled and all of a sudden Syrio pops out and saves the day. If he wanted to be vague on the subject so people thought that she might have an immunity, I doubt he would have said anything at all. Also, wouldn't some of the spectators of the events in the fighting pit (like Barristan) have commented on on how miraculous it was that she survived Drogons firebreath if he did attack her in that way. I don't recall any such comments (although I could be wrong since I dont have the material in front of me).

Hi! Welcome to the board. Also, I love your name.

I agree with what you said about GRRM's statement being meant to stop people from assuming Dany has this inherent ability. If it was something that he planned on exploring further, he could have easily dropped hints about Dany being special or even something like, "Well, wait and see." Having read a lot of SSMs where he's asked yes or no questions like this, he very rarely gives a truly direct answer. "Probably not" is, in his way of answering questions, the basic equivalent of "no," without dropping a spoiler. The way he worded it, even going so far as to capslock "TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE," seems to be very straightforward. But people will believe what they want.

I also think that if, as I said before, the fighting pit had been meant to be another fireproof moment, it would have been much more explicit than it was. That it's ambiguous as it is, to the point where people are arguing about it, shows that if that was GRRM's intent — to show Dany being fireproof again — he didn't do a good job executing it. Setting up a clear pattern of behavior relies on people being able to recognize that pattern when they see it.

And people who saw the fighting pit scene as it occurred seem to remember different things. Barristan thinks she was riding Drogon, some others swore they saw her fall off of him.

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