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Brienne & Stannis?


herald snow

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Stannis maybe grimm and dark but he is most effective these "Honorable / Justice " Man if you compare him Ned, Robb, Jon Arryn. In real life where there are backstabbers its hard to survive sometimes it seems he only relevant "Good" left

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The Eyrie may be impregnable but the Eyrie is closed during winter time - Sansa is not currently in the Eyrie. It wouldn't matter if she were - once her presence becomes known, she will not be safe anymore. It would not be necessary to stage a full scale attack on the Eyrie, it would just take a man like the Mad Mouse who is currently serving Littlefinger to realize just who Alayne is.

If Brienne finds Sansa, it most likely means that rumors of Sansa's whereabouts have started up across Westeros. Brienne would not simply decide to leave Sansa and go after Stannis, she would stay in Sansa's vicinity to make sure she is safe. If Sansa finds out that Brienne was sent by Jaime, she might refuse Brienne's help but that would still not make Brienne leave and go after Stannis. If Sansa (that is, Littlefinger) wages war on Stannis, that would be something else. Then it wouldn't be about revenge for Renly, though.

I love the both Brienne and Stannis. I hope both characters stay with us through the next book.

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I got the feeling that all these personals vendettas(Stark versus Lannister; Brienne and Loras versus Stannis; Danny versus Lannisters and baratheon) are going to be put aside because the others.

I mean, these people has been figthing against each other during 5/6 books but they will have to fight together against a bigger enemy.

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I got the feeling that all these personals vendettas(Stark versus Lannister; Brienne and Loras versus Stannis; Danny versus Lannisters and baratheon) are going to be put aside because the others.

I mean, these people has been figthing against each other during 5/6 books but they will have to fight together against a bigger enemy.

Truthfully I think that is sort of the point of the books. By now word has spread across Westeros (I am relatively sure) of the return of the Others and the wildling pact with LC JS but the high lords will continue to play their game of thrones and remain oblivious to the real threat. It would be lovely to have some sort of "forget our houses and fight together for survival" cliche wrap-up but i just don't see it happening. Sorry about the OT.

On my first read I hated Briennes chapters and would often put the book down to avoid reading hers but my opinion has changed to favorable. Same with Jamie - he is so charasmatic and yes he is a kingslayer but someone had to kill the mad king lol. If it wasn't him it would have been someone else. Even with a headsmans block the deposed king is still a king. Stannis I have begun rooting for because he finally pulled his head out of his ass, thanks to Davos of course and began trying to protect the people he wants to rule rather than only fighting the Game of Thrones.

Insofar as a meeting of Brienne and Stannis goes you have all put forth some great predictions... i can't favor any of them because Brienne is a "lost" character to me right now. I can't fathom exactly where she is - but I would like to see her stay close to Sansa. Someone with brawn I think will be eventually needed to protect her from LF even if indirectly from him.

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Stannis maybe grimm and dark but he is most effective these "Honorable / Justice " Man if you compare him Ned, Robb, Jon Arryn. In real life where there are backstabbers its hard to survive sometimes it seems he only relevant "Good" left

Totally agree with you. Renly would have killed Stannis if he had the chance, and he raised up an army against his own brother's rightful claim. His inflated ego and inferiority complex about his tougher big brothers kind of led to his whole claim. I think if Renly killed his own brother he would have been an unbearable Joffrey-like braggart about it. Renly could have took Stannis's deal and that would have been best for the kingdom, but not for his ego.

In a way Renly deserved to die. Stannis, accomplishing this through dark magic and treachery spared the lives of his own men and a costly in-house civil war. So... yeah. Stannis killed his brother in a grimy way... but even this fits into his honor code.

As far as Brienne taking revenge for Renly... really don't see that happening. It seems GRRM has tied her fate with Jaime Lannister rather than Stannis. But I think her oath to kill Stannis is relevant maybe. What I do think is that Zombie-Catlyn is a creature bound by oaths. She swore to Brienne that she would never get in the way of her vengance against Stannis back in aSoS. So maybe Brienne uses this to escape her hanging...? ... because the "breath of Rhollor" or whatever binds her to the vows she took in life... the way that Zombie-Dondarrion was trapped in his oath to protect the riverlands.

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Yeah ... The wildlings would be safe from the Others. That's it. That's the difference.

The wildlings would be wrecking havock in the north and Jon Snow would CERTAINLY be dead, not maybe. Mance probably woulda attacked Winterfell while the Boltons/Freys/Manderlys were holed up there....no Stannis at the Wall coulda changed the whole course of the book.

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The wildlings would be wrecking havock in the north and Jon Snow would CERTAINLY be dead, not maybe. Mance probably woulda attacked Winterfell while the Boltons/Freys/Manderlys were holed up there....no Stannis at the Wall coulda changed the whole course of the book.

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I'm sorry, but I'm thinking about the long-term picture here. Had Stannis not arrived, and had the wildlings crossed the Wall in peace, the Others would have less potential victims to turn into ice zombies.

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The wildlings would be wrecking havock in the north and Jon Snow would CERTAINLY be dead, not maybe. Mance probably woulda attacked Winterfell while the Boltons/Freys/Manderlys were holed up there....no Stannis at the Wall coulda changed the whole course of the book.

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You sir are correct sir. The North would have suffered even worse than it has... it would have been anarchy. I like the wildlings and understand they have their own type of honor... but they would have been raping and burning the land with no one to check them. Stannis smashed them for the good of the realm. It saved the Wall and Jon and all the NW guys. This allowed for SOME kind of peace between the wildling and the realm. It put Jon in a position to make alliances and rebuild forts for defense against the Others.

This thread has suddenly become a pro-Stannis/anti-Stannis thread, not about Brienne at all. If I have to choose sides on this though I am going to have to go pro-Stannis. At least he sees himself as King of the WHOLE realm, whereas the Lannisters are pretty much prejudiced against the North, and the Starks see the North as a kingdom all on its own. He's probably the only king who could rule the whole thing. He's ruthless and brave enough anyways.

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  • 1 year later...

Stannis will win in the North after teaming up with the Fat Man

He will then use the White Harbour Fleet (The only Navy of any size on the East Coast of Westross) to transport his army to Kings Landing

With The Tyrells fighting Aegon in the Stormlands and the Lannisters a spent force (Especially if Cerci learns the locations of either Sansa or Tirrion and sends an army after them) Stannis takes the city easily

He's now only a few days ride from Brienne,

Mels vision of him sitting on the Iron Throne has also now come to pass, just he won't get to enjoy it for very long

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Yeah Stannis definately knows the score but he's a man of duty and everything else is secondary to that. Even his own personal honour. His little brother tried to screw him over so he dealt with his little brother. Stannis saved thousands of lives by executing the traitor before a huge battle instead of after it. To paraphrase Twyin Lannister - Is it better to kill thousands of men in battle, or 1 man by shadow? I've given up trying to predict Martin but I think death by Brienne would be fitting for both characters

this. I think Stannis justified it to himself by saying he gave Renly until sunup to surrender and join forces, but that anything that happened after would be out of his control. I think Stannis has convinced himself that what he did was the same thing as killing Renly in open battle with the added bonus of saving thousands of lives on both sides by avoiding the battle. Not saying that this means Stannis is not a kinslayer, but that he at least has convinced/deluded himself that he is not.

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Brienne has a very negative dream (vision?) about Renly in A Feast of Crowns



Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . . except . . .

“Cold,” her king said, puzzled, and a shadow moved without a man to cast it, and her sweet lord’s blood came washing through the green steel of his gorget to drench her hands. He had been a warm man, but his blood was cold as ice. This is not real, she told herself. This is another bad dream, and soon I’ll wake


She will break free from Renly

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It seems the plot has a long, long journey from where ADwD's left off to where Brienne and Stannis might intersect. Both have much to survive to reach that. So, much will happen until such a convergence.

Brienne has been on a journey if change far greater than the miles she's rode. She started out both obsurdly idealistic and deluded. I agree with StannisandDaeny and others on Renly's character/integrity. Brienne unknowingly helped Jamie recover from his pervasive cynicism. It seems her warmth for him will thaw her delusions so that her sense of honor and integrity will see what should have been inferred by her long ago: Renly's great character flaws resulted in the deaths and misery of 100,000's...he was unworthy of her loyalty then, as well as her vengeance.

If Brienne and Stannis do meet, I would like to see the character journeys yield another formerly inconceivable plot twist, such as Brienne defending Stannis from a rage filled Loras Tyrell, who also willfully committed treason in usurping Stannis.

Can Loras become an Apollonian character without contrition for his role in the suffering of so many by usurping Stannis? He may show promise. But, to me, he's spent much of his young adult years wiping his ass with the lives of commoners. If he doesn't outgrow these flaws, I'd love to see Brienne bitch slap him into a death that the songwriters never stop singing for centuries. And, wrapping it up, I'd like to see a momentary look of approval between Stannis and Brienne.

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You're not the only one. She's kind of dim. She hasn't actually done anything yet. Sure, she's met some people. Had some conversations and walked around a little bit while discovering things that aren't really important, but apart from that, she hasn't done anything that would make me like her, except for falling in love with Jaime.

If Brienne is dim, how was she able to navigate through the Riverlands during war time so effectively? She took down a river galley by herself. She knew better than to stay at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. She knew what all the horse sh*t in the stables meant. She was too clever to fall for the fake inn keepers tricks and knew which roads to take. Jaime was impressed with her decision making skills. Brienne was also able to deduce that Sansa might be in the Vale with her aunt. There are dozens of men looking for Sansa who have yet to figure that out. Additionally, she has proven herself to be a strategic fighter who knows how to size up her opponents.

The problem with Brienne is that she is naïve, has very low self-esteem, and has overly rigid thinking (which is normal of someone her age – she is 19 by the end of ADWD). There are times when she is so focused on her main objective that she loses sight of the bigger picture. Like when she was so focused on Sansa’s safety, that she didn’t realize Roose meant to give her to Vargo Hoat. But she has shown herself to be perceptive on other occasions. Like when she quickly surmised that Jaime did not believe that Tyrion had killed Joffrey, or when she figured out that the Elder Brother had once been a knight before coming to the Quiet Isle. Brienne does have the capacity to be fast thinking and insightful, we've seen it in the text. It's her inexperience and insecurities that slow her down at times, and those are things she can overcome. I really hope she does.

And to answer the question "what has Brienne done"? Well, aside from changing Jaime Lannister’s life and inspiring him to become a better person, she slew one of the biggest villains of her time, the Mad Dog of Saltpans. Rorge sacked a city and raped and murdered countless innocents. This may have been one of the most courageous acts of valor in the entire series and nobody cares. I've often wondered if this is because the hero is a woman and the victims she protected and avenged were all poor. It's kind of sad if you think about it.

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If Briënne, following her entire realization that Jaime acted reasonably by killing Aerys still cannot understand Stannis, well then, what's the point of putting this bitter, dogmatic, delusional woman through all this to make her a more reasonable person? Also note how in her early chapters she dreams of Renly being killed, later she dreams of Jaime and doesn't give Renly a second thought anymore. She was blinded by love and now her love for Jaime has opened her eyes to see beyond the dogmas her world dictates. Seeing the general sense of (read: the lack of) what are proper 'principles' in Westeros, I do not think we should hold any of them in very high regard.

Labeling Brienne as “bitter” and “delusional” is a harsh mischaracterization. Brienne is a wounded and wary person, but not a bitter one. On the contrary, despite her tough exterior she is still idealistic and tender-hearted. She does her best to do right and help people. Also, Brienne did have a few misconceptions, but this does not mean she is delusional. She overvalued her attachment to Renly and had a higher opinion of him than he deserved. A person having a false impression of someone they have a crush on while they are young is not enough to qualify them as delusional.

As for Brienne’s vow to kill Stannis, it made perfect sense for Brienne to make such a vow at that point in her life. She had just witnessed the murder of the man she loved by the demonic shadow of his brother. Kinslaying is a horrendous crime in Westerosy culture and she had been sworn to protect Renly. How else should she have responded? However, I agree that just because she made such a vow does not mean she will go through with it. Brienne’s arc is about learning to understand the subtleties of a morally complex world. She understood the complexities of Jaime’s situation once she heard his story. So while it is perfectly natural that Brienne would want revenge for the person she once loved above all else. She may yet decide that killing Stannis is not the best course of action if/when she learns of the circumstances surrounding Stannis’ part in his brother’s murder.

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<snip>

If Brienne and Stannis do meet, I would like to see the character journeys yield another formerly inconceivable plot twist, such as Brienne defending Stannis from a rage filled Loras Tyrell, who also willfully committed treason in usurping Stannis.

Can Loras become an Apollonian character without contrition for his role in the suffering of so many by usurping Stannis? He may show promise. But, to me, he's spent much of his young adult years wiping his ass with the lives of commoners. If he doesn't outgrow these flaws, I'd love to see Brienne bitch slap him into a death that the songwriters never stop singing for centuries. And, wrapping it up, I'd like to see a momentary look of approval between Stannis and Brienne.

This would be AMAZING and I really want to see Brienne vs. Loras.
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Labeling Brienne as “bitter” and “delusional” is a harsh mischaracterization. Brienne is a wounded and wary person, but not a bitter one. On the contrary, despite her tough exterior she is still idealistic and tender-hearted. She does her best to do right and help people. Also, Brienne did have a few misconceptions, but this does not mean she is delusional. She overvalued her attachment to Renly and had a higher opinion of him than he deserved. A person having a false impression of someone they have a crush on while they are young is not enough to qualify them as delusional.

As for Brienne’s vow to kill Stannis, it made perfect sense for Brienne to make such a vow at that point in her life. She had just witnessed the murder of the man she loved by the demonic shadow of his brother. Kinslaying is a horrendous crime in Westerosy culture and she had been sworn to protect Renly. How else should she have responded? However, I agree that just because she made such a vow does not mean she will go through with it. Brienne’s arc is about learning to understand the subtleties of a morally complex world. She understood the complexities of Jaime’s situation once she heard his story. So while it is perfectly natural that Brienne would want revenge for the person she once loved above all else. She may yet decide that killing Stannis is not the best course of action if/when she learns of the circumstances surrounding Stannis’ part in his brother’s murder.

A Red Priestess under Stannis' protection killed Renly. Brienne would consider that damning evidence of Stannis involvement. Stannis, on the other hand, still believes himself innocent of direct involvement in Renly's death. If he learns the truth, he might turn on the priestess. In that case, Brienne might reconsider.

Brienne was devoted to Renly but she never knew what he truly thought of her. If she finds out that he thought her a ridiculous freak, she might reconsider her vow to kill Stannis. That seems more likely than that she will let Stannis go because she learned more about Renly's murder.

I don't think Brienne is learning the subtleties of a morally complex world. She is still seeing black and white - she has just started painting Jaime as a white knight (and victim of circumstances) rather than as a black knight.

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A Red Priestess under Stannis' protection killed Renly. Brienne would consider that damning evidence of Stannis involvement. Stannis, on the other hand, still believes himself innocent of direct involvement in Renly's death. If he learns the truth, he might turn on the priestess. In that case, Brienne might reconsider.

Brienne was devoted to Renly but she never knew what he truly thought of her. If she finds out that he thought her a ridiculous freak, she might reconsider her vow to kill Stannis. That seems more likely than that she will let Stannis go because she learned more about Renly's murder.

I don't think Brienne is learning the subtleties of a morally complex world. She is still seeing black and white - she has just started painting Jaime as a white knight (and victim of circumstances) rather than as a black knight.

Brienne is “loyal past the point of sense”, as Jaime said in ASOS. So, I doubt she would turn her back on Renly, even if she learned the truth about him. She would still love him. Her devotion to the people she cares about is steadfast. I haven’t seen any textual evidence to back up your opinion. If you have some, please post it.

Also, I completely disagree that she is painting Jaime as a white knight. Again, I’ve seen zero textual evidence to support this claim. In fact, she said in AFFC, “Jaime had done many wicked things.” She has never white washed his actions. She has never made excuses for him. She has never denied his actions or blamed his bad acts on the circumstance. She simply believes that he has changed from the man he was when he pushed Bran out of that tower (and he has). As for her ability to understand the subtleties of a morally complex world, she previously believed Jaime was a monster for forsaking his oath and slaying his King, but when she learned that he had done it to save the hundreds of thousands of people in King's Landing, she changed her opinion of him. If she only saw things in black and white, then she would have judge that an oath breaker is an oath breaker no matter what, and she would still despise Jaime.

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As for Stannis and I've yet to see any great overwhelming love or fans of his character. Tyrion sure. Daenerys has her fans as well. Jon Snow of course. But Stannis? As far as I can tell hes just like the vast majority of the characters.

Anyways as others have pointed out he is hypocritical and unable to look at himself and see the crimes that he has committed. I don't see him living past the next book and I hope he doesn't.

First off, overwhelming love for Stannis right here. Since the scene with Stannis dictating his brother's (for lack of a better term) eulogy to Mathos where he is more concerned with grammar and removing the word 'beloved' from the document, I've been hooked. Then learning of his holding Storms End, his treatment of Davos, and now, he's basically running Westeros' only meritocracy (outside of the NW) only solidify his bad-ass-ery.

Second, shut up.*

Third, i hope he survives (obviously).

Fourth, on page 1 of this thread, Blackseer says Stannis is "completely out of place in the world of Westeros, and because of his justice, he should die." I think in the Westoros that existed at the start of the series and prior, yes, you're right. But I think Westeros is going through such a radical change that the 'old ways' will die off. I mean, a bastard is now LC of the NW (not that it hasn't happened before), AA is possibly a female exile on another continent, the smartest person in the realm is a disfigured imp, and now two of the most honorable people are a kingslayer and a giant woman warrior. I'd say that once the threat of the Others is over, the upcoming interactions between Essos and all the history there might spur Westeros towards a Renaissance of sorts.

Succeeding in exacting revenge is not a very common theme in ASOIAF, it would be stupid to start now.

'Hoping Briënne will kill Stannis' is just either wishful thinking because of a dislike of Stannis, or thinking you know the story, but actually entirely not getting the point of what it's about.

Having Brienne kill Stannis 'for vengeance' would make her pre-story and character development completely pointless.

[...]

It is far stronger writing to make a character abandon a petty vengeance she swore than to put it through for no reason, with no gains, after it goes against everything she's learned since she swore it.

[...]

Fantastic post. Completely agree.

* that's an Archer reference, sorry, couldn't help myself.

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  • 4 months later...

It seems the plot has a long, long journey from where ADwD's left off to where Brienne and Stannis might intersect. Both have much to survive to reach that. So, much will happen until such a convergence.

Brienne has been on a journey if change far greater than the miles she's rode. She started out both obsurdly idealistic and deluded. I agree with StannisandDaeny and others on Renly's character/integrity. Brienne unknowingly helped Jamie recover from his pervasive cynicism. It seems her warmth for him will thaw her delusions so that her sense of honor and integrity will see what should have been inferred by her long ago: Renly's great character flaws resulted in the deaths and misery of 100,000's...he was unworthy of her loyalty then, as well as her vengeance.

If Brienne and Stannis do meet, I would like to see the character journeys yield another formerly inconceivable plot twist, such as Brienne defending Stannis from a rage filled Loras Tyrell, who also willfully committed treason in usurping Stannis.

Can Loras become an Apollonian character without contrition for his role in the suffering of so many by usurping Stannis? He may show promise. But, to me, he's spent much of his young adult years wiping his ass with the lives of commoners. If he doesn't outgrow these flaws, I'd love to see Brienne bitch slap him into a death that the songwriters never stop singing for centuries. And, wrapping it up, I'd like to see a momentary look of approval between Stannis and Brienne.

You get my momentary look of approval
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