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Tulley + Frey Wedding (Spoilers)


vmadman

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If you have not finished the Tulley + Frey wedding... DO NOT READ THIS!!!

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So, I sat the book down right after Robb and Cat were killed... and I am just beside myself with anger.

It does not particularly bother me than Robb died, not the character anyway. He was somewhat hollow and wasn't mentioned as much as one might think. It does bother me that his chance for retribution against house Lannister died with him, though. I have already happened upon a spoiler that indicates that some of the Lannisters get what is coming to them, but I wanted house Stark to be the deliverers... so, no chance for that anymore.

Cat dying, also, not a big deal... but it pisses me off that she left the world thinking that her sons and daughters were all dead. At least GRRM could have wrapped those story lines up a little, gave her some hope before killing her... I'm ok with tragic heros, but outright tragedy for the sake of tragedy is silly.

The books are just not good. They spend a majority of the time building up to disappointment. I've considered the idea that I am just being shallow, and that the good guys do not, and should not, always win. But we also don't often write elaborate stories about people who completely failed.

But GRRM goes out of his way to ensure the reader is never satisfied and that no hope can exist inside of his world. Up to this moment, no character has been successful in any venture that I can think of. Its just constant failure, on all sides, and even victories are accidental.

Its just so very intentional that is unintelligent, in the same way that a "hero always wins" author is unintelligent. GRRM has a certain pattern he follows, almost unwavering, of caring for more for the environment than the characters and plot. GRRM likes to paint pictures of beautiful environments but fails (horribly) at filling those environments with meaningful human emotions and interactions.

Characters are always traveling, but never arriving. Why even bother with the side stories? He never resolves them, he just kills people off. I don't know, he is obviously the story teller, I do not presume to be able to tell him what to do with his books.. but I really do not know where to go from here.. I have nothing to hope for, all of the most interesting parts of the story are over now.

Just thinking about the plots running:

  • Jon Snow just ditched Ygritte, ok, so thats over. I suppose there is some chance that he does something amazing, but he is going through serious internal struggles, I do not see how GRRM is going to write his way out of that.. unrealistic really.
  • Mansk is marching, but, honestly.. who cares, I like him as much as I like anyone in Westeros. He can win or lose for all I care.
  • Tyrion was removed as the hand, another of my favorites, and now he's just squirming around
  • Daenerys is on the march, having success, but I hate her father and her brother.. I don't particularly want to see her house revived. I don't see what "good" can come from a slave army and dragons... tbh
  • Samwell just needs to hurry up and die, worthless, useless
  • Stannis is pulling himself together, but I don't like him either really.. I liked his brother, but, well, that's over too.
  • Jaime is going through some character evolution that is nice, but he lost a hand..I don't know, who cares what happens to him.. he deserves death but prob won't get it.
  • Joffrey is pointless, he will die sooner or later I expect, useless child.
  • Gendry is assing off, pointless character
  • Theon is useless, may as well kill him off (if he's not already dead)
  • Theon's sister... pointless..
  • Sensa is weak, she is just a plot filler.. worthless, pointless
  • Robb Stark is dead.. so, thats over
  • Bran is playing in the woods, surrounded by other pointless characters..
  • House Tulley is in tormoil, not sure how that will recover. It baffles me a little that house Frey, weaker than Tulley, would do such a thing.. I guess I'd be slightly interested to see Riverrun smash them, but.. whatever, GRRM will probably write that away too.

So, really, what the heck am I supposed to care about? There is very little that can happen from here that would please me at all, so why read on?

A friend of mine, who convinced me to read the books, said that he likes the writing styles as it is "more realistic". But thats not true, in fact in ASOIAF people with the greatest advantage often fail, and the weaker characters prevail (Samwell against scores of whites, Jaime against a bear, Daenreys going from starving in the desert to sacking cities, Tyrion suspiciously becoming the hand). Thats not realistic... not at all... GRRM will take someone from nothing to everything then kill them off with a poison apple.

"Life doesn't always go as planned"... but its also pretty rare that you travel hundreds of miles at 8 years old, get back to your mom, and have her die in the next room right before you walk in.

Someone help me understand whats going on here, what am I supposed to like about these books?

-Luke

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Well, in my opinion the characters is in many ways what does this books as great as I think they are. We have dozens of interesting bi-characters, even hundreds and it's always hard to tell anyone's true motive. And I don't think it is supposed to be realistic in ways of fantasy and what happens, but it is meant to be realistic in how everyone can fail, and no one is a mighty superhero. And that is refreshing and it's charming that you never know what will happen.

The characters you mention as boring is actually many people's favorites. Gendry is actually Robert's bastard and a candidate for the throne so he is relevant in many ways.

And i don't understand why you dislike Daenerys because of her insane family, she is not like them and neither were her brother Rhaegar. You should judge her after what she does, not what her father did. Then you could always blame countries for what they've done in the course of history and that you can't.

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I also wanted to the Starks to kick the Lannisters ass for killing Eddard (my favourite caracter), BUT im sure that the Lannisters will get what they deserve in the end or at least i hope so...

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Did you catch who actually put the sword into Robb? I didn't catch it on my first read. What did he say? What music was playing? So do you know who did this to them? Who all was involved and what all did they again? This might be reason enough to continue to read.

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If you give up now, you'll be missing out on a lot of good stuff coming. I'd recommend trying to finish this book before making your decision about quitting the series.

Yes it's a long series with quite a few gut punches, but GRRM isn't killing people because he's evil. This stuff needs to happen for the story.

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I still remember the first time I read that chapter. The climax of my entire experience reading the series, and I've read all five published novels. Like you my predominant emotion was anger. I was angry at what had been written on the page. I distinctly remember closing the book and saying aloud, with no one in the room, "well why should I read any more?! Who is the hero of this story?! who is there left to root for?!!" I agree that Robb wasn't a major character in the sense that much of his story was happening out of view, but still, I wanted him more than anyone else to be successful, to find justice for his family. It took me several days to pick the book back up and soldier on. Like so many others I'm glad I did. A Storm of Swords is my favorite novel thus far.

What I came to understand was that because I had gotten so angry it was a great story. I had become so invested in the characters that I actually experienced anger. A great story will do that. You'll feel joy, or fear, or sadness with a great story. No other story that I've read has made me feel anger before, not at this level. Well done, Mr. Martin.

So let me address your list. Because there is so much more to hope for even with the loss to the head of the Stark family.

  • Jon Snow - Yes, he has left Ygritte and returned to the Night's Watch. But his experience will change him in ways he never thought possible. When he said his words he abandoned any possibility of love, let alone sex. He swore to "never father a bastard." That meant he would always be alone. But in joiing the Free Folk he did fall in love however briefly. Now that he has returned to his duty he's a different person. His sacrifice for the Wall means far more to him now than it ever did before. His time with Ygritte adds more to his character than anything he experienced before or probably after. He already decided that his duty was more important than his father or his brother. But then came Ygritte. Now he knows what he's given up. Benjen was hesitant to let him join before he knew what it meant. Now he does know. Martin doesn't need to write his way out of this. This is how he wrote his way out of Jon just being a young boy. Now he's actually a man of the Night's Watch.
  • You don't care for Mance? Why should you? I don't either. But think about what his winning means. It would mean that the Wall would fall. That the North, having lost Ned Stark and Winterfell now must stand alone against nearly the entire population of wildlings north of the Wall. And then what for the Seven Kingdoms? Could the North contain all the Free Folk? And what if Mance loses? What happens to the Free Folk then? They're running from some perceived threat of the Others. If the army of wildlings is turned back and becomes an army of wights then how could a weakened Night's Watch stand against that?! Is it better for the Seven Kingdoms that the Wall fall to the wildlings or to the Others?
  • Surely you don't think that Tyrion is going to let a little thing like his father assuming control or his sister's schemes or some Dornishmen stop him from taking what he rightly deserves? Surely his performance in A Clash of Kings showed you what he's capable of. He handled Cersei once, he can do so again. He defended King's Landing basically coordinating if not commanding the forces arrayed against Stannis. He maneuvered Grand Maester Pycelle out of power and held Littlefinger at bay. He's done so once, he can do it again. He just needs the proper motivation.
  • Daenerys is neither her father nor her brother Viserys. More and more she is her brother Rhaegar. Her victories in Slaver's Bay are basically practice for when she brings her forces to bear in Westeros. She still has a lot of growing up to do. Like Jon, she's safely out of the War of Five Kings for the time being.
  • Samwell has a part to play. We don't know quite what it is though.
  • Stannis is pulling himself together, isn't he?
  • I hated Jaime. Until I didn't. I don't know when that happened. You've noticed how his character is starting to develop? Why is he growing. Oh yes. He can't just be a sword anymore. He lost that. He is still a Lannister. There is much expected of him even if he isn't a warrior anymore.
  • Joffrey, the First of his Name, King of the Seven Kingdoms, is pointless? You really do hate him, don't you? He is an atrocious king, in every way possible. Why hasn't someone removed him, replaced him, killed him, usurped him? Practically everyone in King's Landing has a reason, except Sansa, and all those reasons are different.
  • Gendry has a part to play. We don't quite know what it is though.
  • If Theon isn't dead then he is one of a very small number of people who know that Bran and Rickon are alive somewhere. I would not forget that.
  • Unless the Greyjoys become a larger part of this story, then yes, Asha is pretty pointless.
  • Sansa is the only Stark that everyone knows is still alive. Her son would be heir to Winterfell and the North. The Tyrells wanted her. The Lannisters have her. Should Dontos actually be able to get her away from King's Landing then where would she go? She may be a married woman, but she's still a little girl. When people see her they see a political puppet. When she looks in the mirror she sees a frightened caged bird. If she should escape her cage would she start to fly? To soar? She lost her Direwolf. What does that make her now?
  • Robb Stark is dead. Does that mean it's over. What if his wife is pregnant? What about his letter naming his heir? There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, even if Winterfell has been burned to the ground. The death of their king is not something that ht e North can forget, let alone forgive. Who will pick up his banner now?
  • Is Bran the Stark in Winterfell? How could he be if he is so intent on finding the Three-Eyed Crow north of the Wall? What do his dreams mean? Martin has a way of shepherding characters out of the battle lines when he needs to store them for some purpose later.
  • The Tullys are in a bad way, and no mistake. The Lord of Riverrun a captive. Who holds Riverrun now? Oh yes, the Blackfish. One of Robb's greatest military commanders.

You can't give up on these stories. There are simply too many things still worth fighting for, and yes, even dying for, in Westeros.

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@ JimWolf

It's all coming back to me now, like in a dream. . . . lol . . . . .how I threw the AGOT at the wall when Ned died . . . . .how I threw ACOK against the wall. . . . .how I threw ASOS. . . . . against the wall . . . . I love AFFC. . . . . how pissed I was at the end of ADWD. . . . . . .I told my friends I hate GRRM!

Ooooooh, you're bringing it all back why I kept reading, lol!

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@JimWolf

Wow... thanks for such a thoughtful reply. I thought I would surely be flamed.

Yes, I am like you guys in many ways. I appreciate the fact that I can be angry at the story.. how much boring would it have been if I had felt nothing. And, also like you, I don't think I could possibly quit the series... even though I'm always throwing books at the wall.

My despair isn't related to any particular characters death, but I am not an extremely gifted reader.. I'm easily 20-30 hours into ASOS.. and that's a lot to invest, more than 3 seasons of any TV show wrapped up into 4 or 5 hundred pages. Add to that AGOT and ACOK.. oh man, I'm heavily invested.

And after all of those hours I do not feel like I've gotten ANYWHERE at all in this story. The characters I hate still live, most of the characters I loved are dead, and there doesn't appear to be any retribution in sight. In fact, I'm convinced that Martin systematically and intentionally denies any emotion in me other than anticipation, frustration, and anger. He does it on purpose, and that annoys me soooo much.

But you've calmed me a bit, and I appreciate it.

But, since this topic has me highly interested, I will respond to your list with another :)

  • Jon Snow - I had high hopes for him, he was one of my favorites early on.. and I like his character in the show even better. I disliked his decision to join the watch in the first place but understood his frustration of being a bastard. He may play a major role in what is to come, but I've lost all hope of him ever being happy or satisfied in his life, and that is sad.
  • Mance - I like him, a little, but he is hollow so far, and I've given up on the north.. I don't like any of the characters particularly well anymore and could care less if Mance destroys the whole place. I've given up on Westeros as a whole, perhaps it is time, after all, for the knee benders to be replaced by democracy.. I have no particular love for either side.
  • Tyrion - I suppose I am half interested to know the rest of his story, I've ran across a few spoilers unintentionally that give me some idea.. but the author is unfair to him. He did defend King's Landing, he took over the defense.. and his father gave him zero credit. No doubt his father regretted his birth, but to me Tywin seems like one of the most logical people in the whole book, he always seems to know more than everyone else, surely he recognized Tyrion's true role. Without Tyrion its possible the whole Lannister family would be dead by now... unless Joffrey's human catapult was more effective than it seemed.
  • Daenerys - I like her, I guess. She has rose in power VERY quickly. It seems like only a few days ago she was looking for water and food so that she did not die, yet now she has sacked two cities with dragons and an army of 10,000. Her plot has holes all in it, and her confidence level varies from page to page.
  • Samwell - He might have a part to play, but I would rather someone else play it. He is one of the few characters that make me want to skip pages. "I'm cold, I'm cold".. pissing himself all the while. I have no respect for him, he's weak, cowardly, and stupid.. all at the same time. I am no warlord myself, but I have at least ONE good trait somewhere in me, he has none... that I can see. He slips and falls into success, and that annoys me entirely... he should have died the day he laid down to rest.
  • Stannis - Yes, I cannot determine for myself if the red witch is good or evil... he promoted the Onion Knight, ok, one point, but he is too stubborn to make allies.. and we all know that allies are 100% necessary for victory, in anything.. he lives on borrowed time.
  • Joffrey - Yes, pointless.. he's a wicked little child... born from incest, I hate everything about him. I know he'll die soon, it would be obscene and irresponsible on Martin's part if he didn't. He's ignorant of life. He is pointless in the sense that all he does is make mistakes, all of the things that go right in his life are the result of others, and usually at his protest. Robert had to defeat armies on every front to get his crown, Joffrey just showed up. I don't even need to read how he dies, or who kills him because I know that he will die and any number of people or methods would be perfectly acceptable.
  • Gendry - I really don't like his character at all. He has not accomplished anything and he is one of the most annoyingly passive people in the book. Let him blacksmith... he has no principles, no honor, nothing.. he is in my way.
  • Greyjoys - All of them... stupid, stubborn, and weak. They lost before, they'll lose again, piss on the lot of them. Theon is still ok in my book, but he is too weak and gullible to command anything.. and he's burnt too many bridges to fall back in with the Starks. So, he may as well just die.
  • Bran - Could be interesting, but probably won't be.
  • Sansa - Ah, little bird... are you insinuating something? ;) Still, unless she has some pretty drastic, absurdly drastic, character evolution starting on the next page, I have no use or love for her.
  • Robb Stark - I assumed it would mean a collapse of the Northern alliance, given how tumultuous it was in the first place, and how weak Robb made it before he left. But ok, if someone grabs that banner my interest would be peaked. But who could grab it that I care for? Whoever it is, he better be as Noble as Ned and a clever in battle as Robb or all is lost.

But as I said, I concede, I will pick the book back up tonight... but I'm not optimistic. I think every character is weak and stupid.. I don't like anyone, or anything.. which, admittingly, is exactly how I felt when Ned died.

I hope Martin realizes how pissed he just made me and starts apologizing right away with something I can latch onto.

Ugh, still pissed, still so very pissed. But thanks again for the discussion.

-Luke

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No, no, vmadman, don't give up. I loved AFFC. And WoW looks like it's going to be awesome!

And I missed the fact this was not only your first thread, but your first post! Welcome to Westeros, and don't be mad, man! Lol! It's such a complicated place, the world of George Martin. It's very much like the old saying, life's a bitch, and then you die. :bawl: :P

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