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Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?


bemused

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Thought this might be applicable to the topic.

From wiki about the Four Treasures of the Tuatha Dé Danann.

Despite his great power and prestige, the Dagda is sometimes depicted as oafish and crude, even comical, wearing a short, rough tunic that barely covers his rump, dragging his great penis on the ground.[1] Such features are thought to be the additions of Christian redactors for comedic purposes. Tellingly, the Middle Irish Coir Anmann (The Fitness of Names) paints a less clownish picture: "He was a beautiful god of the heathens, for the Tuatha Dé Danann worshipped him: for he was an earth-god to them because of the greatness of his (magical) power."

Sound a bit like someone?

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Val as Nissa Nissa .. :D Ye Gods ! I hope not !...Anyway , like Aemon, I think the AA prophecy is just a R'hllor centric version of TPTWP ,or the Last Hero , that they appropriated and added their own flourishes to. I doubt a Nissa Nissa is necessary...( ah well, that's me..Away wit' ye, R'Hllor!) ;)

Besides, I believe Benerro , Moquorro and that lot see Dany as AA ( Drogo as her NN ,and the dragons as her symbolic Lightbringer ? ) but I think that's a long ongoing discussion elsewhere...Zupoleon , don't convert.. :)

Efiln***sin..(sorry..) ...Much as I love the Dagda and his magical cauldron (and his member certainly is Tormund-like) ..and despite my love of the Irish Celtic mythology in general ...and fascinating as I find the Serbian lore, I'm feeling the Norse religion is still the primary place to look for clues, based on what GRRM has said...Of course ,in our world, the Vikings got around..Ireland and points west , to Russia and Constantinople ( and points east ?) so influences did creep in here and there, or got left behind in their wake.. But in our world the Norse religion still maintained it's unique flavour.

But this is George's world ..we have to leave room for his invention...so who knows?

If you read his not-a-blog , I think we can put the direwolves and their importance down to GRRM's admiration for wolves and his involvement in raising funds for wolf conservation.( What a guy! Go, George.. )

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Besides, I believe Benerro , Moquorro and that lot see Dany as AA ( Drogo as her NN ,and the dragons as her symbolic Lightbringer ? ) but I think that's a long ongoing discussion elsewhere...Zupoleon , don't convert.. :)

Haha thanks, I'm definitely not. I was just curious if that possibility had been discussed. I don't spend too much time on those "other" threads ;)

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Efiln***sin..(sorry..) ...Much as I love the Dagda and his magical cauldron (and his member certainly is Tormund-like) ..and despite my love of the Irish Celtic mythology in general ...and fascinating as I find the Serbian lore, I'm feeling the Norse religion is still the primary place to look for clues, based on what GRRM has said...Of course ,in our world, the Vikings got around..Ireland and points west , to Russia and Constantinople ( and points east ?) so influences did creep in here and there, or got left behind in their wake.. But in our world the Norse religion still maintained it's unique flavour.

Have been readin up on quite a bit of the Norse and Celtic folklore, and have to say, there are many of the same stories told slightly differently, along with Germanic stories, Welsh and so on. The Dagda has also been related as an Odin-esque type figure. Plus I think part of the brilliance of asoiaf is that he has woven all these similair folklores and bits of history all together, Tormund fits quite nicely as the Dagda, maybe not perfectly, but enough to be a relation.

Edit: It's not just the member on Tormund, but also his "oafish and crude, even comical" personality. In a way, I think Mance fits a bit as the son of the Dagda who tricked the Dagda out of his land. It seems that Mance usurped Tormund's rule. If you notice in all of Mance's conversations with Jon, he sends Tormund(and everyone but Dalla and maybe Val) away, even when Tormund asks "Even me?". Mance comes back with "Especially you."

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To add to my last post I'm not sure you can discount the influences of Celtic folklore, all the doing's of the First Men/CoTF/Others seems very related to the Sons of Mil/Sidhe/Famorian conflicts.

There are also conflicts between the Aesir and the (probably older) Vanir to keep in mind amongst the Norse analogues. And the Norse and Germanic stories are very closely connected (as are all the Indo-European traditions, Slavic, Celtic, Persian, etc, :) ).

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There are also conflicts between the Aesir and the (probably older) Vanir to keep in mind amongst the Norse analogues. And the Norse and Germanic stories are very closely connected (as are all the Indo-European traditions, Slavic, Celtic, Persian, etc, :) ).

Yes, exactly what I am saying. This could also be a hint as to why we see very simlar prophesies between the Last Hero/Azor Ahai/PtWP.

Edit: Just to clarify, I think this is relating to the similar stories we see between these folklores of Celts/Norse/Welsh/Germanic. The prophesies mentioned above scream of being the same story, but told through different lore.

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Yes, exactly what I am saying. This could also be a hint as to why we see very simlar prophesies between the Last Hero/Azor Ahai/PtWP.

Edit: Just to clarify, I think this is relating to the similar stories we see between these folklores of Celts/Norse/Welsh/Germanic. The prophesies mentioned above scream of being the same story, but told through different lore.

Yes, I agree. I always thought that the prophecies were pointing to the same thing, just filtered through different times, cultures, and contexts. I thought the fact that different people saw different things when looking at the same red comet in ACoK was significant in this way, showing us how interpretations of the same thing can be very relative. That said, it is of course possible the prophecies are all about something different, but I'd never have thought of that until I came to the boards and people cast doubt in my mind. My own readings made me think that it was all pointing to something similar at least.

Even the prophecy of the Dothraki about the ghost grass struck me as possibly pointing to the Others (or a Long Winter or plague that would even reach the Dothraki lands).

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I thought the fact that different people saw different things when looking at the same red comet in ACoK was significant in this way, showing us how interpretations of the same thing can be very relative.

Good point, I had forgotten all the different interpretations of the comet, will have to keep it in mind.

Edit To add on to similar folklore, we have the Wild Hunt (Odin's Hunt, Oiser's Hunt, Wild Chase, etc.) Which has it's own myth's throughout all of Europe, all close in resemblance, but slightly different.

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Oh , I didn't mean to imply that the Celtic similarites should be entirely discounted , just that according to GRRM , he's primarily based the religion on the Norse version.. It may also be worth noting that the Dagda could also bring the dead back to life ..:)..though I don't think Tormund will actually do any such thing from any clues so far..( or he would surely have revived the son that was killed by Richard Horpe ) but perhaps some tradition of resurrection will be seen to exist in the Old Gods' religion...By this I mean the first men's interpretation of the Old Gods, which may differ from the CoTF's.( Certainly CH is a different sort of being than the wights, and different from Thoros' resurrections )

I often wonder if all the talk that's been going on about blood sacrifices to the Old Gods ( founded on Bran's vision, and the entrails draped on the WH weirwood) isn't some idea the first men brought with them , or some perversion of the idea of greenseers becoming part of the tree ( feeding the tree , in a way ) We actually have yet to see any such requirement , or any statement of it's efficacy ,stated by the CoTF. And I don't think we've seen it among the wildlings , yet, or any iteration of "only death pays for life" , have we ?

Phooey ..out of time ,for now..

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Thank you bemused it's a great thread and the OP was wonderfull :)

I do think there is some significance to Val's carved weirwood face pin and Morna White Mask with her weirwood mask. I think it could be connected to Bloodraven in some way. We always, and with good reason, equate BR and the 3EC but what about Mel's vision? It reminds me of Val's pin and Morna's mask...

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf’s face threw back his head and howled.

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but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

Which Brandon does this refer to, Bran or the Brandon in the vision?

Is King Brandon Stark the one being sacrificed?

In the ancient world, ritual regicide was a general tradition. The king of Quilcare, India would be sacrificed at the end of the twelfth year of his reign. Maybe the King of Winter was sacrificed at the time before winter or when winter was coming.

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Which Brandon does this refer to, Bran or the Brandon in the vision?

Is King Brandon Stark the one being sacrificed?

In the ancient world, ritual regicide was a general tradition. The king of Quilqcare, India would be sacrificed at the end of the twelfth year of his reign. Maybe the King of Winter was sacrificed at the time before winter or when winter was coming.

And through the mist of centuries the broken boy could only watch as the man's feet drummed against the earth . . . but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

It was just Bran, I think. I don't think there's any indication that Bran recognized the man. Also, it's Bran's POV. Bran wouldn't know what that man, who lived centuries ago, had thought, so he wouldn't know if he had tasted blood in his final moments.

.....................................................................................................................................................................................

Not directly to the topic, but this is, in the end, a thread aout the old gods and their priests. I've found an interesting example of human sacrifice, which very much resembles the case featured in ADWD. (I've already posted it on some other thread some time ago.)

The Cimbri were a tribe from Northern Europe, who, together with the Teutones and the Ambrones threatened the Roman Republic in the late 2nd century BC. The Cimbri were probablyGermanic, though some believe them to be of Celtic origin. The ancient sources located their original home in Jutland, in present-day Denmark, which was referred to as the Cimbrian peninsula throughout antiquity.

Strabo gives this vivid description of the Cimbric folklore (Geogr. 7.2.3, trans. H.L. Jones):

Their wives, who would accompany them on their expeditions, were attended by priestesses who were seers; these were grey-haired, clad in white, with flaxen cloaks fastened on with clasps, girt with girdles of bronze, and bare-footed; now sword in hand these priestesses would meet with the prisoners of war throughout the camp, and having first crowned them with wreaths would lead them to a brazen vessel of about twenty amphorae; and they had a raised platform which the priestess would mount, and then, bending over the kettle, would cut the throat of each prisoner after he had been lifted up; and from the blood that poured forth into the vessel some of the priestesses would draw a prophecy, while still others would split open the body and from an inspection of the entrails would utter a prophecy of victory for their own people; and during the battles they would beat on the hides that were stretched over the wicker-bodies of the wagons and in this way produce an unearthly noise.

The Cimbri are depicted as ferocious warriors who did not fear death. The host was followed by women and children on carts. Aged women, priestesses, dressed in white sacrificed the prisoners of war and sprinkled their blood, the nature of which allowed them to see what was to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

Possibly, this is a source from which GRRM drew inspiration - an old woman, a priestess, sacrifices a captive by cutting his throat, hoping to get a vision of future. Maybe the original First Men tried to help the greenseers to be all-seeing in this way. Although I truly haven't got the impression that the greenseers would need such form of help. Maybe they need it if they try to accomplish something harder than just see?

Well, the only thing Val has in common with those women is gender and white attire. She's far to young to be such a priestess, unless, of course, they begin young in the ASoIaF universe. :)

.

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It was just Bran, I think. I don't think there's any indication that Bran recognized the man. Also, it's Bran's POV. Bran wouldn't know what that man, who lived centuries ago, had thought, so he wouldn't know if he had tasted blood in his final moments.

.....................................................................................................................................................................................

Not directly to the topic, but this is, in the end, a thread aout the old gods and their priests. I've found an interesting example of human sacrifice, which very much resembles the case featured in ADWD. (I've already posted it on some other thread some time ago.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

Possibly, this is a source from which GRRM drew inspiration - an old woman, a priestess, sacrifices a captive by cutting his throat, hoping to get a vision of future. Maybe the original First Men tried to help the greenseers to be all-seeing in this way. Although I truly haven't got the impression that the greenseers would need such form of help. Maybe they need it if they try to accomplish something harder than just see?

Well, the only thing Val has in common with those women is gender and white attire. She's far to young to be such a priestess, unless, of course, they begin young in the ASoIaF universe. :)

.

That is more likely. Bran probably tasted the blood seeping into the ground to the roots.

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  • 5 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Perun is described as having coppery hair, and associated with the East. As well as being the deity of fire, Perun was associated with eagles. Melisandre has coppery hair, comes from the East and it is felt in her accent and breath by characters. She also burns Orell's eagle. The fire part is obvious.

When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon’s breath surrounded the girls where they lay.

BR's sigil is a white dragon breathing red flames. Dragons in Slavic mythology, as hiraeth may have mentioned, are extremely intelligent, wise and knowledgeable creatures of superhuman strength and proficiency in magic, which describes BR well. Veles is said to take the form of a dragon, and transforms into animals, trees and people. BR can warg into animals and weirwood trees as a greenseer.

The story goes of Perun slaying Veles, who takes the form of a dragon, only to have Veles be reborn in a new body like a snake shedding its skin. The old greenseer will be replaced by the new greenseer, Bran.

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That is more likely. Bran probably tasted the blood seeping into the ground to the roots.

I don't know. If it's in Bran's POV why would he (either Bran or GRRM) be referring to him in the third person and how often has Bran ever been referred to as Brandon in the novels? Usually all who know him call him Bran, and GRRm certaintly refers to him as just Bran not Brandon. Whereas Ned's brother was always referred to in text as Brandon and not Bran. I know it wasn't Ned's brother that was sacrified I'm just trying to make a comparison by how there names are used in the text.

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