Jon denied the Stark Claim, but what of a Targaryen Claim?

[Lyanna Stark]

There is another thread that Apple started on the DWD board that is relavent to this discussion. Jon has greatly helped Stannis with his strategy in the North but he is facing insurmountable diificulties commanding the Nigths Watch because of the political situation in the North and the collapse of the Starks power. This argues for him taking a larger role in the governance of the North maybe not in name but in fact in the long run. Despite his wish to stay nuetral he must help restore the Starks to Winterfell to hold the Wall.

This seems likely. Especially if he gets his "life" back from Melisandre. He's already shown quite an inklination to be a better leader than Stannis (Stannis is an excellent Commander, but Jon was the one who knew the North and suggested how he go about it) and is able to think quite big and take in the larger picture. He's not afraid of controversial or newfangled ideas to get to his goal, either.

In a larger sense this same logic might apply to the rest of the 7. The war must end and a relatively robust monarchy must be restored in order to combat the Others. If Jon is the son of Rhaegar does he become the person who can do this? Does he need to take the Throne? Why should other people take the black and give up their wealth and titles if the rightful King will not? Will he become the de facto King based partially on his Targ blood and the extreme importance of his posistion? A lot of this really depends on Stannis, does he continue to seek the Throne in his own right or does he find the out the truth of Jons parentage and base his rule on being Jons regent and follow his wishes because it his obligation to do so, which sounds crazy but we are talking about Stannis.

I'm not sure the realm needs to know that Jon is Rhaegar's son. I would very much like for Jon himself to know, and maybe Dany, since they are the only Targaryens left and both of them spend so much time longing for a family. Regardless of how much people dislike Jon's arc, I think he has grown into a good leader. It's just that he doesn't have the power to enforce his leadership properly. The things he are suggesting are sound and well reasonoed (most of the time) but unfortunately he's suffering from lack of PR and unreliable underlings.

What's worth noting here as well regarding Stannis is that Stannis felt going against the Targaryens was an extremely difficult decision, even if it was his own brother who started the rebellion. I am sure Stannis' views on Rhaegar weren't much different from the rest of the realm (minus Robert), i.e. valorous, noble, honourable, etc. It may be something that could potentially sway Stannis to support Jon, since he knows Jon is a capable leader already and Jon has helped him in the past.

Stannis having Jon's back in the future is amazingly appealing, which means it probably won't come true!

[Val the Wildling Princess]

I'm starting to hope that the great irony of Jon's heritage is that it won't matter at all in his ascent to a throne. He becomes a king because he shows that he's someone worth following, not because he's Rhaegar's — or even Ned's — son.

THIS. This is what I've been saying from the start since I finished reading the books, it just goes perfectly with Jon's character. As Stannis (thanks to Davos) told Jon:

I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

I think that Jon will get the support of the people by his own means, and not because of his name. Actually, King Jon Snow sounds awesome, and so we don't have a problem with the great houses, since none of them would be on the throne :P

[Lady Hodor]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

[Budj]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

Honor is only a downfall when you have snakes trying to take your power from you....and if he lives he has first hand experience with what happens when you don't protect yourself from game players. I think he will be wiser from it.

I don't think Jon was a bad leader - he made great decisions for the watch. Saying that he was killed for being "too progressive" according to an overwhelming minority of people in his command is like saying Abraham Lincoln was a bad president because he was assassinated...

[etu]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

So Julius Caesar was a poor leader? William Wallace?

Every leader makes mistakes and unpopular decisions. It goes with the territory.

Jon held the wall in a bad situation, negotiated the storms of Stannis' demands fairly well, had the courage to make a big decision in bringing through the rest of the Wildlings and seemed to have at least won their respect. He has strengthened the Watch's position without compromising their independence completely.

These achievements should not be overlooked or dismissed simply due to a few malcontents taking an extreme solution.

I think Jon is a good commander turning into a great. He can both lead and manage. He leads by example, and by combining a willingness to be courageous and ruthless with fairness and compassion. The stabwounds do not change my opinion at all.

[Scipio Africanus]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is.

Seen this arguement before around here.

Gaius Julius Caesar was stabbed even though he was accoring to contemporaries (enemies and friends alike) a great general and a major political player who inspired many people to rally behind.

Philip II of Macedon paved the way for his son Alexander III to conquer (their) known world. Yet Philip got stabbed.

Lincoln had already been mentioned, though of lesser legend (on the battlefield) then the aforementioned.

Getting killed, even by your own men, is not a sign of being a weak leader. Perhaps it is actually a sign of being way too succesful for someone's liking...

ps Jon's actions as LC of NW were not bad at all in my opinion.

[RhaenysBee]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

Jon was not so blindly honorable as Ned. He's made of tougher wood. And the fact that the bastards at the Wall stabbed him doesn't mean he was a bad leader. It means they were stupid. Everything Jon did as Lord Commander proves his ability to lead. He had a good sense judgment (making peace with Tormund, letting through the wildlings, rebuilding the castles in defense, handling Stannis, repopulating the Gift) These were all good notions. His only bad notion was to send ships to save those wildlings back at that haunted place.

And if not Jon WHO is left to rule? Nobody else is fit. We don't know a thing about this Aegon kid, Daenerys is a strong woman, a gentle hearted charming girl, a true Targaryen, but terrible at ruling a city/nation/kingdom.

Anyway, Robb legitimized Jon, so there's another chance for Stark claim. If he's Rhaegar's son, there's the Targaryen claim. And after being betrayed by the Night's Watch, it shouldn't be a problem betraying them. Also, he became Lord Commander by cheating. It was Sam cheating of course, but it's still wasn't clean. So claiming Stark or Targaryen seat as a bastard should not be a problem either.

Some personal thing.

You guys remember the part when Cersei sent 100 men to the Wall to pretend being help and then overthrow Jon Snow as Lord Commander? What happened to those men? Died on the road? Abducted by UFOs? By Lord Beric? By Stoneheart? Eaten by Nymeria?

Cersei even said that if Jon was his father's (meaning Eddard here) son, he'd be fool enough to let them through his gates.

Now at that point I decided that if Jon did let those 100 lannister men in as Eddard would have, he's his bastard and question is closed, because he's too stupid to be Rhaegar's heir. If not, there's a chance for Targaryen blood. What do you think where that 100 men evaporated?

[jarl the climber]

Responding to Rhaneys

Cotter Pyke left Eastwatch to command the Hardhomme expedition. He left Ser Hewett in command, Jon considered him capable but not loyal, a freind of Thorne and Slynt. These 100 men came by sea, so they could be at Eastwatch, meaning that this castle is all ready under the control of the conspirators possibly. This scheme might have also died when Cersei was arrested, Osney Kettleback was to have been the commander.

[Alric Stark]

I could see Howland Reed speaking with Jon and it going something like this.

Reed: "Rhaegar Targaryen is your Father and Lyanna Stark is your Mother."

Jon: "It is good to know who my Mother finally is I thank you for that, by Eddard Stark will always be my Father."

As such it is difficult for me to see him embracing his "Targaryen" side.

[RhaenysBee]

Responding to Rhaneys

Cotter Pyke left Eastwatch to command the Hardhomme expedition. He left Ser Hewett in command, Jon considered him capable but not loyal, a freind of Thorne and Slynt. These 100 men came by sea, so they could be at Eastwatch, meaning that this castle is all ready under the control of the conspirators possibly. This scheme might have also died when Cersei was arrested, Osney Kettleback was to have been the commander.

Ah, thank you. So I should stop waiting for this 100 men to arrive and decide for me if Jon is Ned's son or not. Thanks :)

[RhaenysBee]

I could see Howland Reed speaking with Jon and it going something like this.

Reed: "Rhaegar Targaryen is your Father and Lyanna Stark is your Mother."

Jon: "It is good to know who my Mother finally is I thank you for that, by Eddard Stark will always be my Father."

As such it is difficult for me to see him embracing his "Targaryen" side.

Or Jon will have feverish dreams after he's stabbed and he'll dream of a silver haired warrior in black plate of armor with a gleaming red dragon of rubies walking towards him and saying "I am your father." :D :D

[Val the Wildling Princess]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

I'm sure he would make a great king, as i've always said he would need a good hand to act mainly as a PR cause yes, Jon is a terrible comunicator :D I actually think he is a good leader and he did a lot of things that needed to be done. The Watch and the Wall were made to fight and protect the realm against the WW, not the wildlings, he was doing the right thing and that can be a problem when you are surrounded by a bunch of short-sighted people that have been defending it from the wildlings for years. The mistake and the lack of communication went both ways, I believe, that doesn't make Jon a bad leader in my opinion, he has everything to become a great and just king.

[The Sunset King]

Jon will not necessarily want to become the Lord of Winterfell if Rickon is successfully ensconced in that position. For Jon to act upon the will and decide to claim Winterfell, something would probably need to derail Manderly's attempt to make Rickon the Liege Lord. There is also the possibility that the North does indeed rally to a successful Stannis and decrees him to be an acceptable candidate to back for the Westerosi kingship.

As for the Iron Throne, there is little evidence that Jon would ever desire it or be able to muster a sufficiently convincing claim to actually gain it. Plus, having Aegon making a bid based upon supposed descent from Rhaegar would make it redundant to have Jon do so as well (especially with Daenerys's return impending). Jon stands a chance at becoming a king of the North if a new Northern kingdom emerges but the Iron Throne is a much less probable proposition.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@ Val

I'm not so sure Jon would make a great king. He was in a position of power, Lord Commander, and killed by his own men.

If that's not a sign of a bad leader then I don't know what is. Jon is too stubborn and dour to inspire love in the people of Westeros.

Don't get me wrong, his honour is unquestionable and he's a lovely guy, but as a leader I'm not sure he could make it.

In Westeros, by pattern, it seems honour is a downfall, as Ned would tell you if he still had a head.

Actually as I noted in a thread on the ADWD board, most of Stannis' political plan in the North was Jon's idea. Jon told him to go to the Mountain Clans, to skip the Dreadfort and to liberate Deepwood Motte. That, to me, suggests that he'd actually do very well leading the North politically. He had an impeccable understanding of whom to approach, when to approach them and how to approach them. If his time on the Wall shows anything, it's that his talent's kind of being wasted.

Jeor Mormont was killed by his own men, too. Was he a bad leader? Barring some form of obvious abuse that needs correcting (e.g. Aerys II), whenever short-sighted idiots kill their commander, I tend to put the blame on them. Jon needs some PR help, sure. Would you rather have Bowen Marsh in charge, who turned out to be a faithless Iron Throne toadie who'd led women and children die beyond the Wall?

[etu]

I do not see a redundancy between Aegon making a bid upon supposed descent from Rhaegar and Jon making a bid. Maybe if Aegon was who he says he was there would be, but as all signs point to being a fake, there is a very neat symmetry between Aegon making a bid on fake descent which he looks the part for while Jon makes a bid based on true descent which he doesn't...

[Winterfellian]

Actually as I noted in a thread on the ADWD board, most of Stannis' political plan in the North was Jon's idea. Jon told him to go to the Mountain Clans, to skip the Dreadfort and to liberate Deepwood Motte. That, to me, suggests that he'd actually do very well leading the North politically. He had an impeccable understanding of whom to approach, when to approach them and how to approach them. If his time on the Wall shows anything, it's that his talent's kind of being wasted.

I agree with this completely. Moreover the reason that some of the Northern lords are starting to support Stannis is because he is driving the Ironborn out of their lands. It was Jon who told Stannis ''If the Lannisters are fighting the Ironborn so must you''. Stannis plan was to directly attack the Dreadfort. This shows a good understanding of the North and it's people. And you're right...his talents are being wasted on the wall.

[Sasha Steelsong]

So let's say Stannis would have offered Winterfell and the title as Jon Stark warden of the north and Lord of Winterfell, AFTER the Nights Watch betrayal..... Would he say no then? I mean that would totally change the story and we wouldn't know that yet, but.... I'm thinking he only said no to Stannis because he is loyal to the Watch.

I think he would still say no under those circumstances but not because of loyalty to the NW...but more because he grew up believing that he was a Stark bastard never entitlted to Winterfell thus he he would never take it from Stannis either before or after the betrayal (Additionally Stannis' offer required burning the Godswood so I don't think Jon would ever accept under those circumstances). That said I think if Robb's will says what we all think it does (that Jon is made legit and he is the heir to Winterfell) it would have been totally different even if it had come in place of Stannis' first offer, simply because it was a Stark giving it to him.

As to his potential Targ heritage...I think he will embrace it (especially if he is legit as many suspect) because I think he's internalized the whole "protect the realms of men" part of his oath and can't turn his back on the realm as a whole. Embracing his Targ heritage would give him an ability to really protect the whole realm in a way that even being part of the NW wouldn't. That and a good portion of the NW tried to kill him (and may have momentarily succeeded) so I don't think his loyalty to the NW will be as (please forgive me) black and white as it was before the Caesar moment.

ETA: I'm not worried about what if any proof is around to convince the rest of Westeros...very simply because if the story requires that there be some show of proof, I have faith that Martin will have accounted for it somehow. So the arguments that he can't claim his heritage b/c it would be hard to prove don't hold much water for me.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Responding to Rhaneys

Cotter Pyke left Eastwatch to command the Hardhomme expedition. He left Ser Hewett in command, Jon considered him capable but not loyal, a freind of Thorne and Slynt. These 100 men came by sea, so they could be at Eastwatch, meaning that this castle is all ready under the control of the conspirators possibly. This scheme might have also died when Cersei was arrested, Osney Kettleback was to have been the commander.

I thought the 100 men were going to go with Kettleblack when he was "pardoned"...i.e. they haven't left KL because Kettleblack is not being pardoned for confessing to adultery as was intended by Cersei's plan when she convinced him to confess.

[Lyanna Stark]

Actually as I noted in a thread on the ADWD board, most of Stannis' political plan in the North was Jon's idea. Jon told him to go to the Mountain Clans, to skip the Dreadfort and to liberate Deepwood Motte. That, to me, suggests that he'd actually do very well leading the North politically. He had an impeccable understanding of whom to approach, when to approach them and how to approach them. If his time on the Wall shows anything, it's that his talent's kind of being wasted.

:agree:

It's really interesting to note that all the while Stannis is the King in name, the actual chain of events plays out as if Jon Snow was the one giving the actual commands. The strategy and execution were his ideas, not Stannis. (Which is also why I would *love* if Jon ever is King for Stannis to be his Commander. I think they work well together and respect eachother.)

Anyway, Jon is a good leader and above all, he is a pragmatist. He showed that several times, both with the Wildlings and with Stannis. He keeps his sight on the overall goal and doesn't get mired down in old prejudice.

IF we assume that Dany will land in Westeros with a host of Unsullied, Tyrion the Kinslayer and Jorah Mormont the Slaver and with the Ironborn as her closest Westerosi ally, almost everyone will shun her automatically. The Dornish have all reasons to be wroth with her after her abominable treatment of Quentyn (seriously WTF was she thinking? laughing and joking about frogs and enchanted princes?). The Tyrells already hold the puppet King, the Lannisters have one leg standing in KL with the puppet King and the other in Casterly Rock, where whatever remaining Lannister will consider Dany as harbouring a Kinslayer. The Northerners hate the Ironborn as much as they hate the Lannisters, and the Tyrells and the Lannisters hate the Ironborn. Faegon has the Stormlands and may have allied with Dorne who already dislike her.

Littlefinger rules the Vale and God only knows what he means to do, but probably play out the factions against eachother, sit tight and emerge on the side of the eventual winner.

That leaves....Jon Snow, the pragmatist. He could theoretically be the leader and ally Dany could turn to. He has few preconceived notions about people and at the Wall, a man's past is wiped clean. He has served with rapists, murderers and worse, has dealt with noblemen and kings and he at least knows Tyrion and probably doesn't really care about Tyrion killing Tywin or Joffrey overmuch. He could look past Dany's strange menagerie of Ironborn, dwarves, loose cannon Mormont, former Kingsguard knight, eunuch soldiers and dragons to what actually needs doing: protecting the realms of men against the Others. I think few other people have been shown to see the higher purpose and do what duty demands of him more than Jon Snow.

[jarl the climber]

I thought the 100 men were going to go with Kettleblack when he was "pardoned"...i.e. they haven't left KL because Kettleblack is not being pardoned for confessing to adultery as was intended by Cersei's plan when she convinced him to confess.

Thats the thing, Cersei got arrested and is out of power, Ser Kevan and the council could have gone ahead with the plan minus Osney Kettleback, don't know if the timeline allows enough time for them to get there by the end of aDWD.

Kettleback was going to take the black for his crimes and then supposedly get a pardon and be made a Lord after he killed Jon if he wasn't killed in the attempt.

It funny that her plan to kill Jon inadvertantly led to her downfall. Have no idea what happened to these 100 men.