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[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon


Babeldygob

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When Melisandre sacrifices Craster's last baby boy (yes, it's craster's, the baby was switched with mance's so it doesnt have kingsblood, it has first men blood), she'll be breaking contract between whatever agreement The Others had with Craster/wildlings, by TAKING what "belongs" to them. When she sacrifices what "belongs" to The Others to resurrect Jon, there's going to be a different outcome than what you expect ;)



Jon will wake with blue eyes.. And when The Night's King arrives, he'll join with them for the reasons discussed in a separate theory altogether. Together they take the wall, and go south to winterfell, where The Night's King will be put to rest in winterfell's crypts (Old Nan was SURE he was a Stark). From here, the title of Night's King will fall to Jon Snow, and he will be the blue eyed king who cast no shadow..



Or, this is all crackpot fanfiction.


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I overlooked the importance of the Night's King during my first read-through, and never put two and two together until my 2nd readthrough that Stannis took the NIghtfort as his own. I definitely agree that Stannis is unhinged, and seems like a king that while he is doing good things for the realm, is not being recognized for his efforts. His reluctance to sacrifice Edric was quickly shattered, due to Mel telling him it was prophecy and if he didn't follow it, all was lost. Stannis is described by Davos as looking unhealthy, eyes sunk in, etc. and he only looks this way AFTER he sees what this Fire magic can do. He has seen visions in the flames, he has watched Mel kill two people with a shadow. Maybe his appearance, which I relate to a drug addict (he is grinding his teeth alot as well, I mean come on), shows that he is more or less blindly following or relying on this magic now that he has seen what it can do. He is addicted to magic.with all this pretty evident throughout the series so far, and his lack of a personality due to being so devoted to his cause, I can't see anyone else becoming the NK except him.


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I overlooked the importance of the Night's King during my first read-through, and never put two and two together until my 2nd readthrough that Stannis took the NIghtfort as his own. I definitely agree that Stannis is unhinged, and seems like a king that while he is doing good things for the realm, is not being recognized for his efforts. His reluctance to sacrifice Edric was quickly shattered, due to Mel telling him it was prophecy and if he didn't follow it, all was lost. Stannis is described by Davos as looking unhealthy, eyes sunk in, etc. and he only looks this way AFTER he sees what this Fire magic can do. He has seen visions in the flames, he has watched Mel kill two people with a shadow. Maybe his appearance, which I relate to a drug addict (he is grinding his teeth alot as well, I mean come on), shows that he is more or less blindly following or relying on this magic now that he has seen what it can do. He is addicted to magic.with all this pretty evident throughout the series so far, and his lack of a personality due to being so devoted to his cause, I can't see anyone else becoming the NK except him.

Stannis already has blue eyes, and just because he took up the Nightfort means nothing, its the biggest of the wall's castles, and has a secret entrance. It is very out of character if he would suddenly join The Others, when he is the only king taking the threat of the others seriously. So either the NK is going to be Jon or no one at all or the original is still alive.

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When Melisandre sacrifices Craster's last baby boy (yes, it's craster's, the baby was switched with mance's so it doesnt have kingsblood, it has first men blood), she'll be breaking contract between whatever agreement The Others had with Craster/wildlings, by TAKING what "belongs" to them. When she sacrifices what "belongs" to The Others to resurrect Jon, there's going to be a different outcome than what you expect ;)

Jon will wake with blue eyes.. And when The Night's King arrives, he'll join with them for the reasons discussed in a separate theory altogether. Together they take the wall, and go south to winterfell, where The Night's King will be put to rest in winterfell's crypts (Old Nan was SURE he was a Stark). From here, the title of Night's King will fall to Jon Snow, and he will be the blue eyed king who cast no shadow..

And do what?

Other than that, this is pretty interesting. Just enough to it to make me hesitate to say crackpot.

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And do what?

Other than that, this is pretty interesting. Just enough to it to make me hesitate to say crackpot.

I think it can be interesting and crackpot.

I would say this is very crackpot, because:

1. Stannis has blue eyes.

2. Stannis has no shadow.

3. Stannis is a king.

The passage describes Stannis, as plain as can be.

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Stannis already has blue eyes, and just because he took up the Nightfort means nothing, its the biggest of the wall's castles, and has a secret entrance. It is very out of character if he would suddenly join The Others, when he is the only king taking the threat of the others seriously. So either the NK is going to be Jon or no one at all or the original is still alive.

It isn't out of character considering he doesn't seem to TRULY believe in R'hllor, he just believes in the power Mel continues to bring to his plate during his conquest for the IT. Mel and Stannis are separated right now, who's to say Mel and Stannis never reunite, Mel dies and Stannis turns to Ice magic I.E. Night's King to get that power that he has always had in his back pocket?

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Hello all! This is my first post and I'm feeling a lil nervous 'bout it all...but here goes! Nan says Night's king was a Stark. He was defeated when his brother, the King in the North, and Joramun the King-Beyond-the-Wall, joined up and brought him low.


IIRC Wildlings think their stories are the truth/history. They're also right about the names of stars too! And if the North Always Remembers how could the peoples beyond the wall ever forget?


Remember the story/song of Bael [sp] the Bard? He's actually the K-B-t-W and sneaks into Winterfell posing as a bard right? He goes in and he steals a Stark girl away. They have a baby who comes back and well, nevermind. It's an important story, but not to this bit of the ditty. Sound familiar though? Like maybe how Mance poses as a singer to get into WF so he can steal a 'Stark' girl away...w00t! He's sooooo Romeo-Dreamy!


It does kinda tie into the Night's King story though because if some of us are right Mance did a repeat of this story [a story lil known to unknown in the south-north] to get a Stark girl out. In getting her out Mance makes it possible for him to write the PL, dragging Jon into his [Mance] game.THAT matters because it means Mance just pulled a super badass-man-amongst-dumboxes move based on a plan he made BASED on a northern-north tale!


Maybe Mance has put something together from all the [true north] north histories/songs about not just HOW to win against the Others, but also the WHO. Seems to me that Jon being a Stark from WF was a big deal to Mance from the get-go in spite of Jon being a Snow technically [Omg he so isn't a Snow-dunDUMdun!].


I am VERY tired, been up 2...no! Almost 3 days now. I hope I am making sense here but I feel like I'm losing my thread. I made a funny. I Had this idea in my head though and it was so clear up in my noggin...but now that I'm writing it down I am reminded of the feeling I get when I wake suddenly from what I know was a good dream and can only almost remember it.


Help me find the Waldo in this part of the story! Joramun the King...Joramun the Horn...digging for the horn among the tombs of ancient kings...Stark king partnering with K-B-t-W Joramun to defeat the Stark king's bro who was LC of the NW before he humped on the queen of the ice-tarts...and then there's always the, 'There must always be a Stark in WF' thing.


For the record, I think Mance is also onto something about Craster's Bastards and what was/is going on there. Also I'm sorry for my nervousness and how it plays out when I write. I'm all excited to post and I don't really know why! And I wana say that I LOVE L_O_V_E LOVE GRRMartin for his inborn awesomeness and stellar coolarity in a world suffering from a severe deficiency in both! If I could I would give him many babies. They would be like yummy lil' candies with centers of chocolate flavored smartness coated in a candy shell of awesomeness.


**side-note** Would/could Stannis be turned what with how all uptight he is about his duty as king? That seems a real stretch to me-same goes for Jon. NK isn't the same as regular ole human ass king I'm thinkin'. Also all the little ties/connections between Craster's Bastards, the NW, the 1000th LC AND Craster's 100th son [is that too crazed an idea?] are coming up, the NK and the Others, the fact that it seems whenever there is 'badness' happening in the north there's a Stark not only in WF but on the wall as well, and gawd knows what else it's all just super-happy fun to me in my head! It might be me thinking too much but I have an idea that Mance will be pulling a lot of it together in the North-north.


I'm also stringing these ideas along so we can have fun hashing them out together-NOT so I look all eCrazy while trying to come off as eClever. True story.


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  • 3 months later...

I think the parallels between what is known about the "Ice Queen and Night's King" are far to similar to what Mel & Stannis do....

To me it screams Night King 2.0 its not a matter of personally thinking the emotional side of blah blah...

Its what has happened long ago in comparison to what has happened recently and their WAY to exact...

When Mel says she sees bloodraven or the great other and his servant she freaks out I read this in reverse...I say Bloodraven & Bran just got a glimpse of the great other, Mel and she is freaking out cause they saw through her "glamor" for "what she really is".

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Stannis and Meisandre don't have to technically "turn to ice" (literally and figuratively) to become a destructive force in the Great Night 2.0. I recall theories on the board that the Wall will eventually fall during some point in the next two books. (I'm not really a fan of this, personally, but...) Fire destroys ice, and if this should be true, it might be somehow be due to Melisandre and/or Stannis.


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“There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." - Varys

I'm just starting my Stannis reread, basically I'm reading every chapter that involves Stannis physically.

I want to present a theory that has probably been discussed a few times, but with the Theon chapter I want to go deeper into it.

Stannis started out his journey to the Iron Throne in Dragonstone, the former seat of House Targaryen, much on that island is about Fire and Dragons. He had Melisandre as a Thrall of Fire basically, not really buying into the whole Lord of Light thing, rather using it as a tool for his campaign. He recognizes that Melisandre has (fire)power and uses it for his own goals several times.

Later on, he goes North to help the Wall against the wildlings and establishes his seat in the Nightfort, which is the former seat of the Night's King, a lot of things here have to do with Ice and Coldness. Whereas Dragonstone was a beautiful island with a beautiful carved out castle, he now has a broken down castle, with nothing much going for it except its history.

Dragonstone(Fire) ---> The Nightfort(Ice)

Stannis has a pretty hard time on his campaign. The first thing he does is killing his brother, using Dark Forces powered by Fire. He recognizes the power of fire a lot and uses it to see his future through Melisandre.

After that he loses the battle of the Blackwater because of Wildfire and flees. He returns to Dragonstone and because of this defeat he almost turns to the bad side by planning to burn Edric Storm for power. Davos prevents him from doing that and informs Stannis of the real threat.

Here we see how Stannis, driven by hopelessness, does not refrain from doing bad things for the greater good. We see how for him the end justifies the means if other options run out.

He then goes North to fight the real problem, but Stannis is only convinced because he sees it as a tool to make the realm follow him in order to get the Iron Throne. Despite his victory, Jon Snow is unwilling to let him have the wildlings and become a Stark to help him.

Despite this effort Stannis makes to help the realm, the realm still doesn't recognize him as a true king. This is something he very much despises. He gets more and more driven by his hate for the realm and everyone in it who doesn't recognize him.

When Stannis departs from the Nightfort to get back Deepwood Motte, he basically starts his transition from Fire to Ice. He uses the forces of fire less and less now that Melisandre isn't with him and starts hating on the snows. He recognizes that the cold and the North are powerful things and he has a hard time overcoming them.

Again despite his effort freeing Deepwood Motte from Asha Greyjoy, no Northern Lords except for Alysane openly declare for him. They still don't want to bend the knee even though he's proven again and again that he can handle the realm and that he'd be a good King.

In the Theon chapter, we see Asha making the request of offering Theon to the Old Gods at the Hearttree. As we see in Bran's adventures, offering blood to the Hearttree seems to have been a big thing in the olden days. We also see that Stannis has a plan to use his environment(Ice) to somehow trap his enemies in the battle.

In this chapter we also see that even though Stannis is doing what's good for the North, he learns of an attempt of a Northern Lord trying to turn his cloak. Again he is rewarded with treason and hate for his efforts.

Power of R'hlorr(Fire) ---> Power of the Old Gods(Ice)

Now here's the theory I have:

Stannis will offer Theon to the Hearttree. Something will happen that convinces Stannis of the power of Ice and he will start using that rather than Fire to help him on his campaign. He wins the battle and solves the North's problem with the Boltons.

Now what happens next? If he establishes the North and brings back peace, what will they do? Will they follow him to the South to take back what is rightfully his, now that Winter has come? I think not, I think they will tell Stannis to wait until the Winter is out. They will let him have the Nightfort and let him be to do whatever he wants, because he saved the North basically. They will swear they're his, but they won't do anything for him. There is even a big chance Manderly will crown Rickon King in The North once he gets his hands on him. Another treason. Justin Massey's resolve seems weak and he might even betray Stannis. We saw with Dareon what Braavos might do to you. The gold of the Iron Bank will do Stannis no good if he can't find any sellsword company anymore.

Basically, Stannis is again fucked and has too few forces to do anything. He will sit at the Nightfort and think of ways to help him get The Iron Throne and punish those who defied him and keep defying him. He will try to help out against the Others if they finally show up and he will see their power(Ice).

Now something clicked when I read the chapter where Stannis meets his brother. Stannis' sense of justice dictates that anyone who doesn't bend the knee will be destroyed.

And Stannis will do exactly that. He will bring justice down upon the realm. At some point he will be so bitter, he will break before he bends. Whether this means he should actually die or just be overturned by the events that come to pass, I don't know. After what happened at the Wall he might not have the patience for another choosing, if there even is one. I could see him making himself Lord Commander, as well as King. He might somehow make a pact with the Others, convinced of their power. It might be that all The Others need to start their rampage on humanity is a leader. He will LEAD them down upon the realm, destroying ANYONE who denies him, unwilling to bend the knee. He will be the Night's King come again and lead the attack from The Others upon a treasonous realm. He will bring JUSTICE to those who deserve it. He will use the power of ICE to destroy those who defied him. The treason has gone on for too long and it is time for true justice. He would have finally found the army he needs and has always wanted, devoted to him, without question, without doubt, carrying out his every order, unyielding like he himself is.

Things from the books that support this theory:

There's possible foreshadowing of this in the fact that Shireen has greyscale and the Wildlings are all like WTF THIS KID CARRIES A CURSE. It might be foreshadowing in how Stannis might father other children to an 'Ice woman' that will be 'terrible abominations' like Old Nan says it.

Referring to a dream that Dany had in Storm of Swords:

This sequence is full of parallels between the war Robert fought and the war Dany is about to fight.

Rhaegar[Dany] on his horse[her dragon] fights Robert[stannis] Baratheon and their army of rebels[Others] at the Trident.

Remember that the Usurper doesn't necessarilly indicate Robert. If Dany returns to Westeros, she will see Stannis and his army as The Usurper.

In the House of the undying Dany sees:

This obviously refers to Stannis. I think it is interesting though that the only things that distinguish him are the Red Sword(made by Melisandre), the Blue Eyes(parallel with the Others) and no shadow(Light is needed for shadow). In the darkness, in the night, Night's King Stannis would have a red sword, blue eyes and no shadow.

Not completely in line with my theory but there are several parallels between Melisandre and the Ice Queen of the Night's King another member has already remarked upon;

Appearance:

Melisandre - "Her eyes were red, but her skin was smooth and white ... pale as cream."

Night's King Queen - "...skin as white as the Moon and eye like blue stars."

Skin temperature:

Melisandre - "Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather..."

Night's King Queen - "...her skin was cold as ice..."

Soul Draining Coitus:

Melisandre - "...the king's fires burn so low i dare not draw off any more to make another son."

Night's King Queen - "...when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul..."

Sacrificing:

Melisandre - "Give me the boy for R'hllor."

Night's King Queen - "...he had been sacrificing to the Others..."

The only difference I notice is the flip between Hot/Cold - Red/Blue - Fire/Ice. Both want to sacrifice people. Both drain the soul from people when they have sex. Stannis might reunite with Melisandre when he goes back to The Wall or he might not, but the parallels are striking and maybe Melisandre takes a turn to the Ice too, who knows? Maybe Melisandre and the Night's King Queen are ONE AND THE SAME. People have already remarked upon how she seems to be using a glamour for herself and how she doesn't need food nor sleep.

This is when Davos talks to Stannis about burning Edric Storm and what his kingship might cost him. It seems to me foreshadowing to a point where Stannis might actually get burned and may rise again as something darker, something broken. You could discuss that this is about Viserys, but the crown Viserys got, was much different from a crown of flames, which is very resemblant to Stannis' crown. It might foreshadow how Fire is going to consume Stannis. He would then rise again as Ice.

In Sam's chapter where Aemon dies on the ship, he has one of his last conversations with Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

We also learn from Bran's adventures that there's a gate through The Wall at the Nightfort.

This makes it more difficult for my theory if Stannis plans to use it, but he could become Lord Commander instead of Jon. He has said before that he would appoint one if it took too long. Will he have patience for the voting? Especially now that Black Brothers have killed Jon he might think it's necessary that he takes over before they all become corrupt and treasonous. Maybe he will use the Night's Watch for his own purposes, this would align with the Night's King theory. By doing this, the Night's Watch falls or at least a key point to their existence. The fact they can't take part in squabbles between Houses. Stannis has already tried to convince Jon to fight for him. If he becomes LC, what would stop him from doing just that?

It would be quite ironical to see the Night's Watch align with the Others. The Wall would stand strong no more and Stannis could use the gate. This is all far out there, but knowing GRRM...

So, what do you think? There may be more hints to this than I spelled out here. I feel the Night's King HAS TO come again. There are so much dark stories about it and now that Stannis sits at the Nightfort I don't think anyone else is going to own that castle.

I don't know if anything like this will even happen. I must say this is an awesome, well thought out and plausible theory. A lot of time thought and work was put into this. I just want to say thank you. Threads like this are awesome!!!!!! :cheers:

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Would she dare to do that? What would Stannis'reaction be? It's also interesting because Shireen's dream of her being eaten by a dragon fits into that theory. She gets sacrificed(eaten) for(by) a dragon.

I always thought Mel always planned on sacrificing Shireen. I even thought her mother was given clues. Maybe I am only thinking of the show though. The show is very clear that Mel needs Shireen at the Wall even though her mother doesn't want to take her. She sasys on the show she has an important role to play there etc. Do the books not give the same impression?

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I have a small addition to Badeldygob's excelent post. The battle vs the Bolton's might take place on a frozen lake. Stannis uses the lake to his advantage (the power of Ice) to win. Martin is fond of including actual events from medieval history, and there is a famous one where an army falls through the ice and drowns. I forget which one it was.



Stannis is also surrounded by ice and cold at this point. No fire.



Anyway. Might be something there.


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I always thought Mel always planned on sacrificing Shireen. I even thought her mother was given clues. Maybe I am only thinking of the show though. The show is very clear that Mel needs Shireen at the Wall even though her mother doesn't want to take her. She sasys on the show she has an important role to play there etc. Do the books not give the same impression?

Yes, they do, but more subtley. I was under the impression that Shireen would be sacrificed to the flames long before I watched season 4. Sacrificing Shireen may not be something that Melisandre is actively plotting (or it might be), but she might be lead to make this decision. Without Stannis at the Wall, I feel that she's much more likely to make said decisiion.

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I have a small addition to Badeldygob's excelent post. The battle vs the Bolton's might take place on a frozen lake. Stannis uses the lake to his advantage (the power of Ice) to win. Martin is fond of including actual events from medieval history, and there is a famous one where an army falls through the ice and drowns. I forget which one it was.

Battle of the ice

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  • 1 month later...

Melisandre has that vision of him fighting in a battle in the snow. She never specifies which side he is fighting for, actually.

Melisandre swears that she has seen me in her flames, facing the dark with Lightbringer raised on high.

Seems pretty clear to me... Where did you get "snow" or ambiguity about which side?
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