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Babeldygob

[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

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Facing the dark and raising the sword doesn't mean he is fighting the dark. Could very well be he turns towards it and raises his sword as a call to arms to get the dark to begin a charge.



I got "snow" from the fact that if the battle involves the white walkers, there will be snow. Just an assumption on my part.


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This is some crazy crackpot banter, making deals with the others? The others don't give a dam about Stannis and the nights king is alive and well as shown in the tv series accidental reveal! I Don't understand how some things get so much response!

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I wouldn't think too much about a "deal" with the Others more of like a turn to ice for him. I was actually thinking something similar of Stannis after coming back across Dany's dream recently and found this theory. I think the perception that Stannis will "become" the Night's King is off because there is clearly some type of Night's King/conscious leaders in the far north.....but it's definitely not out the equation he turns to the powers/magic on the ice side to finally claim control. That actually makes a lot of sense to me. He may find that out through as it was mentioned sacrificing Theon to the Heart Tree.




Per Mel, he will in a way betray everyone he knows and holds dear (supposedly) to win a battle and this whole time Mel has seen him in the light but we know how she misinterprets things. So it could be really interesting if he beats the Boltons but to the detriment of many and he takes a dark turn. Mel being betrayed by him revives or helps heal Jon and they now think Stannis needs to be stopped or something along those lines. It's a big stretch because then when do the actual Others make it into the equation, does he march south and overthrow with an ice fueled army (I don't really know what that would entail but maybe they become more adaptive to the Winter or something)?



Basically, he finally gets what he claims is his but through the process becomes the man that needs to be killed. I like that idea but I dunno haha

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This is some crazy crackpot banter, making deals with the others? The others don't give a dam about Stannis and the nights king is alive and well as shown in the tv series accidental reveal! I Don't understand how some things get so much response!

this is wrong. according to the asoiaf-wiki GRRM said:

As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

seems to like the showrunners just decided to do it in a different way and grrm couldn't say more without spoilers.

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this is wrong. according to the asoiaf-wiki GRRM said:

As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

seems to like the showrunners just decided to do it in a different way and grrm couldn't say more without spoilers.

Thanks for that. I really like to see what happens now with the burning of Shireen (I'm guessing I can talk about that here) and if what the show will show, will be applicable to the books and what that means for Stannis, the Night's King Come Again, because that would definitely be the last thing he'd do when all hope is lost. I'm getting a feeling that Stannis is going to sacrifice himself or at least his soul. If a King's bastard blood can kill three kings and if a King's daughter can ... (??? We'll see!!!) than surely sacrificing The One True King is the ultimate sacrifice?

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Thanks for that. I really like to see what happens now with the burning of Shireen (I'm guessing I can talk about that here) and if what the show will show, will be applicable to the books and what that means for Stannis, the Night's King Come Again, because that would definitely be the last thing he'd do when all hope is lost. I'm getting a feeling that Stannis is going to sacrifice himself or at least his soul. If a King's bastard blood can kill three kings and if a King's daughter can ... (??? We'll see!!!) than surely sacrificing The One True King is the ultimate sacrifice?

I have that feeling to, that he is going to sacrifice himself to save Shireen and/or Davos.

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no way he would sacrifice himself. his ultimate goal is to become king and that is hardly possible when he kills himself. also, he sees himself getting king being the best for everybody, so who would save mankind when he is dead? i would say he is willing to sacrifice anybody else but him, though only when he is out of options.


stannis is a man of duty, his duty as the rightful king is to rule and exert justice. every other agenda is subordinate to this.



oh and saving shireen would be too far off from what they did in the show, no way they would ever do such a drastic change.


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no way he would sacrifice himself. his ultimate goal is to become king and that is hardly possible when he kills himself. also, he sees himself getting king being the best for everybody, so who would save mankind when he is dead? i would say he is willing to sacrifice anybody else but him, though only when he is out of options.

stannis is a man of duty, his duty as the rightful king is to rule and exert justice. every other agenda is subordinate to this.

oh and saving shireen would be too far off from what they did in the show, no way they would ever do such a drastic change.

Not if he somehow believes that he will return as a more powerful incarnation. By this time he'll have seen enough magic to believe it, too.

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I'm going to speculate here that Stannis is not really dead on the show or they would have shown his deathscene.



What's left to do for him?


The Night's Watch has no Lord Commander and Stannis seems to be going to take the black.


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It is probable that the show "Stannis" (which he can only be called to a limited extent) is following/followed a different and much inferior course. This was one of many mistakes made by the show producers. The show is no longer overly reliable as a guide for determining many character's fates. It still reveals things that will happen in the books, but there are so many absurd decisions and alterations that it cannot be considered a firm way to resolve certain questions anymore. It is clear that D&D have a vision of Stannis that is quite different from Martin's.



The leader of the Others/Night's King entity that appears in the show almost certainly does not exist in the books. Is not possible that this being is a substitute for the role that Stannis will ultimately play in the books? Remember all the foreshadowing from the House of the Undying and Daenerys's dream. These suggest some kind of showdown between Stannis and Daenerys as a final confrontation between Baratheon and Targaryen, again at the Trident. A Bosworth.



I rate it as likely that Stannis, to parallel Daenerys winning the Battle of Fire, will prevail in the Battle of Ice. The sample chapter has made it obvious that will happen. The anti-Azor Ahai/false AA will succeed in his battle to later challenge the real one. Sorcery may aid this victory, but it will be very different from the show's failed Shireen sacrifice and instead involve green blood magic. In any case, the Battle of Ice is clearly meant to echo Robert's stunning success at Summerhall.



The foreshadowing of Stannis acting as a new Night's King is too interesting and powerful for Martin to throw away, even if the show has done that by introducing an alternate, lesser version of the Night's King. The story of the Others and their eventual fate will be more complex in the books.




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I wouldn't trust anything you see on the show.



They only killed Barristan so Tyrion could meet Dany and take over Mereen.



Same thing with Stannis. Killing him so some other major character will take his role.


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That is one cool fucking theory and I hope it turns out to be true. The part about Dany's dream/vision is especially convincing. I don't see Stannis going any place happy, so if he doesn't kick the bucket this would be a good outcome.

The only thing that I wonder about in this theory is where Jon fits in.

Jon may be dead. Perhaps, he does not have to fit in.

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“There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." - Varys

I'm just starting my Stannis reread, basically I'm reading every chapter that involves Stannis physically.

I want to present a theory that has probably been discussed a few times, but with the Theon chapter I want to go deeper into it.

Stannis started out his journey to the Iron Throne in Dragonstone, the former seat of House Targaryen, much on that island is about Fire and Dragons. He had Melisandre as a Thrall of Fire basically, not really buying into the whole Lord of Light thing, rather using it as a tool for his campaign. He recognizes that Melisandre has (fire)power and uses it for his own goals several times.

Later on, he goes North to help the Wall against the wildlings and establishes his seat in the Nightfort, which is the former seat of the Night's King, a lot of things here have to do with Ice and Coldness. Whereas Dragonstone was a beautiful island with a beautiful carved out castle, he now has a broken down castle, with nothing much going for it except its history.

Dragonstone(Fire) ---> The Nightfort(Ice)

Stannis has a pretty hard time on his campaign. The first thing he does is killing his brother, using Dark Forces powered by Fire. He recognizes the power of fire a lot and uses it to see his future through Melisandre.

After that he loses the battle of the Blackwater because of Wildfire and flees. He returns to Dragonstone and because of this defeat he almost turns to the bad side by planning to burn Edric Storm for power. Davos prevents him from doing that and informs Stannis of the real threat.

Here we see how Stannis, driven by hopelessness, does not refrain from doing bad things for the greater good. We see how for him the end justifies the means if other options run out.

He then goes North to fight the real problem, but Stannis is only convinced because he sees it as a tool to make the realm follow him in order to get the Iron Throne. Despite his victory, Jon Snow is unwilling to let him have the wildlings and become a Stark to help him.

Despite this effort Stannis makes to help the realm, the realm still doesn't recognize him as a true king. This is something he very much despises. He gets more and more driven by his hate for the realm and everyone in it who doesn't recognize him.

When Stannis departs from the Nightfort to get back Deepwood Motte, he basically starts his transition from Fire to Ice. He uses the forces of fire less and less now that Melisandre isn't with him and starts hating on the snows. He recognizes that the cold and the North are powerful things and he has a hard time overcoming them.

Again despite his effort freeing Deepwood Motte from Asha Greyjoy, no Northern Lords except for Alysane openly declare for him. They still don't want to bend the knee even though he's proven again and again that he can handle the realm and that he'd be a good King.

In the Theon chapter, we see Asha making the request of offering Theon to the Old Gods at the Hearttree. As we see in Bran's adventures, offering blood to the Hearttree seems to have been a big thing in the olden days. We also see that Stannis has a plan to use his environment(Ice) to somehow trap his enemies in the battle.

In this chapter we also see that even though Stannis is doing what's good for the North, he learns of an attempt of a Northern Lord trying to turn his cloak. Again he is rewarded with treason and hate for his efforts.

Power of R'hlorr(Fire) ---> Power of the Old Gods(Ice)

Now here's the theory I have:

Stannis will offer Theon to the Hearttree. Something will happen that convinces Stannis of the power of Ice and he will start using that rather than Fire to help him on his campaign. He wins the battle and solves the North's problem with the Boltons.

Now what happens next? If he establishes the North and brings back peace, what will they do? Will they follow him to the South to take back what is rightfully his, now that Winter has come? I think not, I think they will tell Stannis to wait until the Winter is out. They will let him have the Nightfort and let him be to do whatever he wants, because he saved the North basically. They will swear they're his, but they won't do anything for him. There is even a big chance Manderly will crown Rickon King in The North once he gets his hands on him. Another treason. Justin Massey's resolve seems weak and he might even betray Stannis. We saw with Dareon what Braavos might do to you. The gold of the Iron Bank will do Stannis no good if he can't find any sellsword company anymore.

Basically, Stannis is again fucked and has too few forces to do anything. He will sit at the Nightfort and think of ways to help him get The Iron Throne and punish those who defied him and keep defying him. He will try to help out against the Others if they finally show up and he will see their power(Ice).

Now something clicked when I read the chapter where Stannis meets his brother. Stannis' sense of justice dictates that anyone who doesn't bend the knee will be destroyed.

And Stannis will do exactly that. He will bring justice down upon the realm. At some point he will be so bitter, he will break before he bends. Whether this means he should actually die or just be overturned by the events that come to pass, I don't know. After what happened at the Wall he might not have the patience for another choosing, if there even is one. I could see him making himself Lord Commander, as well as King. He might somehow make a pact with the Others, convinced of their power. It might be that all The Others need to start their rampage on humanity is a leader. He will LEAD them down upon the realm, destroying ANYONE who denies him, unwilling to bend the knee. He will be the Night's King come again and lead the attack from The Others upon a treasonous realm. He will bring JUSTICE to those who deserve it. He will use the power of ICE to destroy those who defied him. The treason has gone on for too long and it is time for true justice. He would have finally found the army he needs and has always wanted, devoted to him, without question, without doubt, carrying out his every order, unyielding like he himself is.

Things from the books that support this theory:

There's possible foreshadowing of this in the fact that Shireen has greyscale and the Wildlings are all like WTF THIS KID CARRIES A CURSE. It might be foreshadowing in how Stannis might father other children to an 'Ice woman' that will be 'terrible abominations' like Old Nan says it.

Referring to a dream that Dany had in Storm of Swords:

This sequence is full of parallels between the war Robert fought and the war Dany is about to fight.

Rhaegar[Dany] on his horse[her dragon] fights Robert[stannis] Baratheon and their army of rebels[Others] at the Trident.

Remember that the Usurper doesn't necessarilly indicate Robert. If Dany returns to Westeros, she will see Stannis and his army as The Usurper.

In the House of the undying Dany sees:

This obviously refers to Stannis. I think it is interesting though that the only things that distinguish him are the Red Sword(made by Melisandre), the Blue Eyes(parallel with the Others) and no shadow(Light is needed for shadow). In the darkness, in the night, Night's King Stannis would have a red sword, blue eyes and no shadow.

Not completely in line with my theory but there are several parallels between Melisandre and the Ice Queen of the Night's King another member has already remarked upon;

Appearance:

Melisandre - "Her eyes were red, but her skin was smooth and white ... pale as cream."

Night's King Queen - "...skin as white as the Moon and eye like blue stars."

Skin temperature:

Melisandre - "Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather..."

Night's King Queen - "...her skin was cold as ice..."

Soul Draining Coitus:

Melisandre - "...the king's fires burn so low i dare not draw off any more to make another son."

Night's King Queen - "...when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul..."

Sacrificing:

Melisandre - "Give me the boy for R'hllor."

Night's King Queen - "...he had been sacrificing to the Others..."

The only difference I notice is the flip between Hot/Cold - Red/Blue - Fire/Ice. Both want to sacrifice people. Both drain the soul from people when they have sex. Stannis might reunite with Melisandre when he goes back to The Wall or he might not, but the parallels are striking and maybe Melisandre takes a turn to the Ice too, who knows? Maybe Melisandre and the Night's King Queen are ONE AND THE SAME. People have already remarked upon how she seems to be using a glamour for herself and how she doesn't need food nor sleep.

This is when Davos talks to Stannis about burning Edric Storm and what his kingship might cost him. It seems to me foreshadowing to a point where Stannis might actually get burned and may rise again as something darker, something broken. You could discuss that this is about Viserys, but the crown Viserys got, was much different from a crown of flames, which is very resemblant to Stannis' crown. It might foreshadow how Fire is going to consume Stannis. He would then rise again as Ice.

In Sam's chapter where Aemon dies on the ship, he has one of his last conversations with Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

We also learn from Bran's adventures that there's a gate through The Wall at the Nightfort.

This makes it more difficult for my theory if Stannis plans to use it, but he could become Lord Commander instead of Jon. He has said before that he would appoint one if it took too long. Will he have patience for the voting? Especially now that Black Brothers have killed Jon he might think it's necessary that he takes over before they all become corrupt and treasonous. Maybe he will use the Night's Watch for his own purposes, this would align with the Night's King theory. By doing this, the Night's Watch falls or at least a key point to their existence. The fact they can't take part in squabbles between Houses. Stannis has already tried to convince Jon to fight for him. If he becomes LC, what would stop him from doing just that?

It would be quite ironical to see the Night's Watch align with the Others. The Wall would stand strong no more and Stannis could use the gate. This is all far out there, but knowing GRRM...

So, what do you think? There may be more hints to this than I spelled out here. I feel the Night's King HAS TO come again. There are so much dark stories about it and now that Stannis sits at the Nightfort I don't think anyone else is going to own that castle.

I could have seen this happening but now i'm less inclined to believe it considering that the night's king, not stannis, has already ben shown on the show and is already shown to be the leader and D&D have already called him the night's king

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This guys theory will play out in the books. Jon is Azor, Stannis is NK and Dany is Nissa Nissa. It's fairly obvious. GRRM has said the one thing he didn't like about LOTRs was he didn't know how the bad guy became bad, he didn't wake up one morning and decide to be bad. So he wants to show us how a character becomes bad; his journey to darkness. He was talking about Stannis.

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