Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Babeldygob

[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

Recommended Posts

Stannis does not want the crown more than anything else. He won't sell out his people, even if they were to reject him again and again (which they don't do, obviously, since right now 5,000 Northmen have joined his cause).

If Stannis is going to survive the coming battle, his star is actually about to rise again. He has now plenty of gold, and the chance to hire sellswords - even Braavos itself might enter the war on his side. Manderly and Davos are about to deliver Rickon Stark to him. If the Battle of Winterfell is a decisive victory for him (i.e. if the Boltons don't get away, or if most of their bannermen, say, all the Northern Lords but Lady Dustin, abandon him), the North will effectively be his kingdom.

Since Stannis went north in the first place to fight the real war (i.e. the War against the Others) he won't march south in the near future. He will turn back to the Wall to deal with the Others. Continuing his campaign to conquer Westeros in the thick of winter with the Others in his rear would be completely stupid. Stannis only marched south to make sure that his enemies in the North would not come for him at the Wall!

Also, neither Aegon nor whoever is about to be in charge of King Tommen's administration will try to march north in the thick of winter, either. Aegon (possibly with the aid of Dorne) will try to take King's Landing. That will end this war. Aegon will become the new King on the Iron Throne. If there is any Lannister/Tyrell opposition left he and his allies will march into the Reach or lay siege to Casterly Rock before they'll march north.

You make some good points. IF Stannis decides to fight the Others instead of The Iron Throne, he may still become LC. However I don't think he will stop there. I think Stannis can't sit idly by while another usurper takes the Iron Throne. I think after he wins the battle of Winterfell, he will feel like he has momentum and has to strike south. He also knows that if he wiats until Winter is over, Aegon is going to reunite all of the South and he has no hope of winning anymore.

He will see a chance in the turmoil Aegon has again created, he will see 2 dogs(Lannister/Tyrell & Dorne/Aegon) fighting over a bone and think he's the third dog.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say that when I watched what Melisandre predicted for Stannis in the flames in Episode 10, I was immediately struck by the possibility that he would be the Night's King.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I guess if it was not him to lead the others then who?

Is the main leader going to show up only in the last 2 books?

My guess is that the Stannis sell out will be the huge twist for TWoW. Probably costing another major character their death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is: Who is going to tell Stannis about Aegon? No one in the near future. He will hear about him eventually, but most likely only after he has returned to the Wall. And no one in KL is going to write the Night's Watch in the near future, either, since a Lannister/Tyrell war is imminent, no one is in charge of Pycelle's ravens. But even if anyone would want to reach Stannis right now (say, for instance, his garrison at Storm's End), they would not know where to reach him. He is in the field right now, and soon they might even hear rumors that he has been killed.

So my guess is that Stannis won't hear anything about Aegon directly after the Battle of Winterfell is over. Even the Realm in the south has no conclusive news about Aegon right now. The Golden Company only intends to raise the dragon banner after they have taken Storm's End.

So he won't march south if he defeats the Boltons. If Stannis survives the battle, he has any chance of dying heroically at the Wall fighting the Others. There is a chance for some kind of estrangement between him and Mel (say, he chooses the Old Gods at that heart tree on the island, and she somehow ends up reviving Jon Snow and both of them fall for the rumor that Stannis is dead).

But in the end this is not going to drive Stannis into the arms of the Others. He does not truly believe that he is Azor Ahai. If Mel should for some reason reach the conclusion that she was wrong all along and Jon Snow is the true savior, I don't see him being that much pissed off about that outcome. And Mel does not care if her savior is also King on the Iron Throne. So even if the Lyanna thing would come to light eventually, there would be no quarrel between Jon and Stannis as long as Jon makes no bid for the Iron Throne. And he can't do that as a member of the Night's Watch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought Daeny was Azor Ahai... Someone recently pointed out to me almost every prophecy she's made for Stannis has come out for Daeny. I'd have to verify that but it does seem to make sense.

And as much as I loathe this theory, the show convinced me that it's true. Unless anyone can come up with any other reason for Melisandre's little dialogue to Stannis in Valar Morghulis.

There's numerous ways Stannis could end up becoming some kind of thrall of the Others, free will being the least likely to me since he should always put his protecting the realm in front of everything based on his duty-principle and the most reasonable being he'll be wounded / die and then be involved in some kind of ritual that uses Blood Magic and raises him as a more powerful Wight because Blood Magic has been established as the most powerful kind of magic and Stannis has King's Blood. Even if the Others outnumber him and are far too powerful, Stannis might engage them to 'protect the realm' (he hasn't resigned or given up, but there's a few indications he's beginning to realize he probably won't make it anyway*), so a 'blaze of g(l)ory' may be imminent as well.

* What he told Justin Massey about putting Shireen on the throne. Awful foreshadowing there... If it serves no purpose (thus meaning Stannis is going to live), I see no reason for him to say it from a story-writing perspective.

* 'We will liberate Winterfell, or die in the attempt.' It's not that he wants to die, but he's realized his situation has become so grave it's either all or nothing.

Then the bit with the Golden Company... If the information he gets becomes a trainwreck he might actually assume these men were hired by Justin Massey because he requested them, lol. Here's to hoping that won't happen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is: Who is going to tell Stannis about Aegon? No one in the near future. He will hear about him eventually, but most likely only after he has returned to the Wall. And no one in KL is going to write the Night's Watch in the near future, either, since a Lannister/Tyrell war is imminent, no one is in charge of Pycelle's ravens. But even if anyone would want to reach Stannis right now (say, for instance, his garrison at Storm's End), they would not know where to reach him. He is in the field right now, and soon they might even hear rumors that he has been killed.

I don't think it even matters at this point.

Aegon is consolidating his power in Storm's End by taking castles. The Golden Company alone isn't likely enough to take Westeros, so Aegon needs local support. Prince Doran Martell sure is carrying a grudge due to his sister Elia's death at the hands of Lannister forces, he's an obvious choice to back his nephew Aegon. Varys is backing Aegon (it seems), and trying to weaken house Lannister in order to give the Targaryens the advantage. That puts Aegon's power in the south, Stannis is in the north, there's a long distance between the two and the Lannisters are between them.

Why should either Stannis or Aegon go around the Lannisters to fight each other?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We had a second coming of the Rat Cook (Frey pie, anyone?) so why not the Night's King?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why can't his troops match Aegon's? Aegon is, at present, gravely outnumbered by the Tyrell forces alone, even if Dorne joins him. Stannis has just received infinite credit from the Iron Bank of Braavos - that ought to be able to hire him several sell sword companies of the size of the Golden Company, even if they're not as loyal or good. So Stannis would have the North with him, along with whatever is left of his original army, along with sell swords.

All the companies seem too wrapped up in the wars on the other continent. There is no reason for them to join Stannis.

I fully dig Stannis and think he should take the throne. Hes a total champion

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Getting in my head a brilliant scene in the TV show, with Stannis being surrounded by Others. As they advance they eye him up and stop, he stares back...and lifts Lightbringer above his head. "Kneel." and they do......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stannis is definitely not Azor Ahai. I think that much is clear. Is Dany just another red herring? The prophecies fit her. IMO Azor Ahai is either Dany or Jon. I believe Stannis will learn fast enough of Aegon's conquest. He'll definitely learn Storm's End has fallen. Ravens will definitely be dispatched to White Harbor and other Northern lords. This is because the Iron Throne will see the dangers Aegon poses to them and will call the banners of the North.

I find it very hard to believe that once Melisandre learns that Stannis isn't AA, the deal is off and that's that. IMO the counterpart to AA/PtwP is the Night's King (Fire vs. Ice). Whether the Night's King is the Others' leader or just an accomplice we cannot know for sure at this point. But if there has to be a Night's King, something which I think is inevitable it's either Stannis or Jon will turn.

Somehow I think it's far more likely to see Stannis turning(breaking) than Jon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one thing that disturbs me there is the idea of making a deal with the Others... I dont think it is possible, they're too different... I know the Night King did it, but well, I dont really believe it...

Have you read the heretic bunch?

@OP I say you propose this to that lot, they could pick it up!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the most important questions here is whether George has informed the screenwriters of the final ending and that's where Melisandre's dialogue came from or whether they're just working under the same information we have up until this point. If they don't have more information, the whole scene might just be a stab in the dark (wishful thinking).

The more I think about it, the weaker it sounds to just have the series come to and end with a great battle between utter good and utter evil (if Stannis does betray his family and all his bannermen as Mel said, and leads the Others, not to mention they knew it was gonna happen since the end of CoK, that is pretty evil).

Melisandre's POV however shows she's genuinely against the Others (at least I think it does), and Stannis becoming the Night's King and joining up with the Others should normally benefit the Others (unless through some kind of magic the Others could be defeated more readily if there was a Night's King and she's just setting Stannis up to be sacrificed for her ultimate goal of defeating them, after all the first Night's King was defeated as well, this seems a little bit crackpot-ish though).

Her knowing and encouraging Stannis to betray his men to become the Night's King (she didn't seem too fazed by the concept of Stannis betraying his men - how is this going to help him to get the throne otherwise?) could otherwise only work if Melisandre is working for the Others (or is a glamoured Other, something the warmth of her skin should rule out) but I think her own chapter where we get a look into her mind disproves this theory and shows she's actually truly concerned with stopping the Others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That Mel-Stannis-dialogue only foreshadowed Shireen as Stannis's sacrfice to R'hllor in my opinion (possibly the replacement for Edric Storm in season 3/4. Nothing there foreshadowed Stannis's ultimate fate. After all, if they don't deviate completely from the story Davos will come back and ensure that Stannis does not sacrifice anyone. So Mel is completely wrong here.

If anyone is going to make an alliance with the Others it will be Roose Bolton or Aeron Greyjoy. But most certainly not Stannis. And the Night's King is a mythical figure from the past, not part of some kind of prophecy. I never understood the people who believed this person would become somehow a part of the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys

It's a mythical story that comes up more than once. If we learned one thing it's that none of Old Nan's stories are insignificant and bear a lot of truth. If the Long Night comes again, if Bran the Builder comes again, if Azor Ahai comes again, why wouldn't the Night's King come again? I think his story is too unclear and too much in shades to just be that, a story. Maybe if The Nightfort wasn't back in use and there wasn't some kind of weird passageway there that Bran used, you could be right. But The Nightfort bears too much significance with all the stories around it to just be a broken down castle with the only passageway other than the gates through the Wall.

@StannisandDaeny

The writers of the show DO know the final outcome of the series, they don't know everything, but they know the big picture. This is in case GRRM dies I think. I don't think we should read too much into what Melisandre said. But I do think that Melisandre only supports Stannis because she thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai. How long this will go on? Who knows? I also think that Stannis doesn't need Melisandre as much as she needs him. IF she abandons him for another AA, what will Stannis do? I think he will go on his own path, without Melisandre and if Stannis becomes the Night's King this may lead to Melisandre battling Stannis instead of supporting him. This would make a great story IMO. She would realize how much she helped Stannis and blame herself.

Melisandre in her search for Azor Ahai helping create the new Night's King? Yes, please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought she picked Stannis based on her belief he'd be the easiest to override and give her support because he needed some foreign help the most at the start of the war - anyone (Stannis, too) in a considerable position of power would probably have kicked her out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Melisandre mainly followed Stannis because she actually believes he is Azor Ahai. I also think that if other Kings would've met Melisandre and seen her power, they wouldn't kick her out, just like Stannis didn't kick her out. I mean, she can see the future. And after some time, a king would realise what a valuable power that is, even if they are sceptical in the beginning, like Jon Snow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, considering the developments in ADwD it's not impossible that Bran is going to become Brandon the Builder ;-).

The Nightfort is the eldest castle at the Wall. And just as the Children of the Forest apparently infused the Wall with their magic, they also made that magic weirwood door under it. That's not that great a mystery if you ask me.

But the Night's King seems to have been no truly important character on the larger scale of things. He was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch who made out with a wight lady (or a female Other) and became a threat for both the realms on both sides of the Wall. But he was not part of the great battle of the Long Night before the Wall was raised, nor do we have any reason to believe that the Others had during the Long Night living men in their employ. The very fact that they are capable of using living corpses as their servants makes it quite unlikely that they would recruit powerful living men to do their bidding.

Craster is an example for some kind of agreement between a mortal and the Others, but he did this during a time of (relative) peace, and he has to pay a high price for it.

I see misguided/desperate people trying to make a deal with the Others, but 1. this is not going to work, and 2. it's simply nothing I can imagine Stannis would do.

I'm much more inclined to believe Aeron Greyjoy sailed up north with a bunch of ships and is right now delivering the Iron Islands to the Others because the Drowned God commanded him to do so...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×