[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

[TakingThemUnawares]

I see Stannis's story culminating in him committing some truly horrific act in a desperate attempt to get the Throne when he sees that all is lost. There have been so many hints that he is willing to burn a child alive that I feel like that's where his story is heading... he would have done it with Edric Storm, I think, if Davos hadn't gotten rid of him. Either that, or he will burn himself... his story will end in fire.

I can see that or Stannis committing some truly heroic act, perhaps in the beginning of the Others/Wights swarm of the realm. He might defeat the Bolton's and Frey's, only to face a massive Other onslaught. And perhaps that massacre would finally get the attention of the rest of the realm.

[Rhaegar Targaryen's Ghost]

1. If Melisandre realises that Jon is AA and abandons Stannis, that could turn Stannis to The Others (and be totally ironic that Mel tried to champion AA but instead helped the Great Other)

i think this is the way that this could go. i thought that the original post's point about the man with a red sword and blue eyes is convincing, i missed that part on my first two reads. i think when melisandre revives jon stannis will feel shunned. as to how jon fits in with this, i think that aegon will team up with his half brother jon, and they will hold the others in place in an epic battle, then dany will sweep in with her dragons and wipe out the others. jon/azorahai on a dragon with a flaming sword, dany on one, and tyrion on another. (aegon will die in the battle)

[Silent_Hero]

I think Stannis himself will declare Jon AA(and rightful heir if finds out about R + L=J)

It will ring alot more if the words come from stannis instead of Mel. Stannis has doubts about being AA for awhile now and he searching for some hope that he may be it...or someoNe else might, while Mel is utterly clueless and just is very content that Stannis is AA an she has no doubts that Stannis is AA so she isn't searching or noticing Jon, while Stannis is.

[Lord Varys]

Stannis has always had blue eyes. All Baratheons do. This proves most certainly not that he is going to become a wight.

[Malpka]

Well to be honest i hope you are wrong about Stannis becoming Night's king, though I am affraid you may be right.

However I consider other possibility. Story of Night king definitely has some purpose, otherwise it wouldn't be in the book (thats what I believe), yet still it not suppose to be taken literally. What I mean is: purpose of Rat cook story was to expose right of hospitality and somewhat enlarge crime of lord Walder, from that I would say that purpose of Night king story would be to show possibility of pact with others. Here is what i hope: Roose will be beaten and after defeat he will jon with others as Night king. Mostly i like it because it would make him last in sereies longer and i like him there. Also it seems that he have something up his sleeve. Let see: he doesn't seem to believe Ramsay is capable of ruling, or anything else, and yet he make him his heir (it quite clear he don't like him), he also seem the first person I would though about, to take chance for immortality and power. Quite frankly i wouldn't be surprised if the operation would be in motion already for a while. Also pale eyes, white skin and, what would make me laugh as world play: leeches - lich/es

[The Sunset King]

This is an extremely intriguing and intricately thought thesis.

What if, instead of the North not wanting to send forces south yet and suggesting to wait until the winter ends, the catalyst for a dramatic change in Stannis is the murder of his wife and daughter at the Wall? He would surely go into a berserk rage and obliterates those responsible. Or, less likely, Melisandre also dies (perhaps Others begin raiding the Wall during the probable fighting) after putting up a vigorous resistance against the chaos there. At this point, he somehow proceeds to convert/transform into the Night's King at the Night's Fort.

It does seem that parallels between Robert/Rhaegar and Stannis/Daenerys might unfold, though some of their roles could be reversed in this case (depending on who holds the Iron Throne if the two clash).

The biggest difficulty is who would act as the Corpse Queen (Melisandre, Someone else, No one?) and how hard would it be to force Stannis to such a set of events that would lead to becoming a Night's rather than Day's King. Perhaps a conversion to the Northern religion would help set the preliminary stage for him being open to such a possibility.

Jon Snow is also a possibility as to a new Night's King.

[Catacombs]

I think history and legends in ASoIaF echo in the current story, but that none of them will repeat in detail. And quite a few of them will not even echo in any meaningful way. I just don't see Stannis playing the role of the Night King (his wife maybe, but not him).

That said, I think Stannis is moving away from

Melisandre and her dubious Red god. There is some power there, but also a lot of errors and bad advice. I think his actions based on Melisandre's council fill Stannis with shame. He took them because he thought he needed to, but as the snows fall and he gets farther away from her influence, I think his doubts about that advice and her path are growing.

I think Stannis will hold Theon accountable before the Old Gods on the island, that he will win the Battle of Ice and that Davos will return to him with much and more information about the current state of play. I can see Stannis giving the Old Gods as much or more weight as he gives Red R'hilor.

There has always been a battle between

Melisandre and Davos for Stannis' ear and it is a battle that Davos has won. Stannis is a practical man who really cares about law, honor and the realm. I think he has and always will do what he feels he needs to do to serve that vision. And if somebody with a more legitimate claim to the Iron throne comes forward, I think he will bend the knee--if he is convinced of their legitimacy. I think (with Davos' help) that he will still be standing when the books are done. He will not be King, but he will be content.

Queen Selyse, OTHO, will be toast.

[Ciazio]

And if somebody with a more legitimate claim to the Iron throne comes forward , I think he will bend the knee--if he is convinced of their legitimacy.

As Stannis' fan, I don't want to see him with the knee bent to another "human" king.

And, the only one with a more legitimate claim (legally speaking) than his is Dany and Stannis knows that she would kill him as soon as she sees him, bended knee or not.

[MtnLion]

As Stannis' fan, I don't want to see him with the knee bent to another "human" king.

And, the only one with a more legitimate claim (legally speaking) than his is Dany and Stannis knows that she would kill him as soon as she sees him, bended knee or not.

While I am trying to respect your opinion, it is not strictly true. Daenerys has the least right to the Iron Throne of all of the contenders, because after the Dance of the Dragons, female heirs come behind ALL other heirs.

[CBroome1979]

MtnLion - What you say is true...so in the hierarchy, Aegon (assuming he's Rhaegar's Aegon) would be first, since he was born before Jon Snow (I believe), assuming Rhaegar married Lyanna, we would have Jon Snow as 2nd, then Daenerys 3rd, since the line of succession would retreat back to Aerys, then to any surviving offspring of his. The Baratheons are many generations removed from the Targaryens.

[Koekfabriek]

While I am trying to respect your opinion, it is not strictly true. Daenerys has the least right to the Iron Throne of all of the contenders, because after the Dance of the Dragons, female heirs come behind ALL other heirs.

But before basterds i've i am not mistaken

[nothatso]

But before basterds i've i am not mistaken

I don't understand where this comes from. It seems a commonly held assertion, but I've seen no basis or precedence for it. The asoiaf wiki says it, but provides no source or example, and I certainly can't think of one from the text. People commonly cite the Daeron Targaryen/Daemon Blackfyre situation, but I don't think there's any evidence that Daemon was older than Daeron. Rather all existing evidence points to Daeron being older. (he had much older children, etc)

[King Doug]

I don't understand where this comes from. It seems a commonly held assertion, but I've seen no basis or precedence for it. The asoiaf wiki says it, but provides no source or example, and I certainly can't think of one from the text. People commonly cite the Daeron Targaryen/Daemon Blackfyre situation, but I don't think there's any evidence that Daemon was older than Daeron. Rather all existing evidence points to Daeron being older. (he had much older children, etc)

The problem with Daeron/Daemon didn't come with whoever was older. A king can name a different heir if he doesn't think his oldest son is worthy/competent enough, or if someone else just better fits the role. When the king (Aegon IV I think) gave Daemon the Targaryen ancestral blade Blackfyre, some took that as him naming Daemon the legitimate heir to the throne. Or they just supported him as a political power move. But the point is ages of Daeron/Daemon isn't really the factor.

[Ciazio]

While I am trying to respect your opinion, it is not strictly true. Daenerys has the least right to the Iron Throne of all of the contenders, because after the Dance of the Dragons, female heirs come behind ALL other heirs.

I see your point, but it's based on the assumption that Aegon is "real". While I bet on it, it's still far to be proven in the eyes of many Westerosi Lords.

And by the way, a conqueror spits over succession laws, so if Aegon were real and Dany decided anyhow to toast him, his right will be behind hers. In ashes.

Same argument is true for Stannis and his soon-to-come army of Others :devil:

[MikeDC]

While I am trying to respect your opinion, it is not strictly true. Daenerys has the least right to the Iron Throne of all of the contenders, because after the Dance of the Dragons, female heirs come behind ALL other heirs.

Isn't that true only in the immediate family line though?

I thought the "heirship" passed to the line of the family that was still alive. That is, Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, but he died before Aerys. Upon Rhaegar's death, Viserys, as Aerys' second son, became Aerys' heir, not Aerys' grandson Aegon (or Jon).

Likewise, when Viserys died, Danerys would be his heir because even though Aegon (and/or Jon) are male Targaryen decedents, the royal claim had already passed to their uncle Viserys.

To draw a parallel, it seems well accepted that Myrcella is Tommen's heir to the Iron Throne and not Stannis.

Robert (1) Stannis

|

Joffrey (2)| Tommen (3) | Myrcella (Heir)

Aerys (1)

|

Rhaegar (Dead) | Viserys (2) | Danerys (3)

|

Aegon | Jon?

Or another... with Tywin Lannister dead, Jaime in the KG and Tyrion disinherited for killing Tywin, Cersei is clearly the heir to Casterly Rock and not Kevan or his son Lancel.

[Prince of the North]

I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe they are following something other than agnatic primogeniture:

"Agnatic primogeniture" or "patrilineal primogeniture" is inheritance according to seniority of birth among the sons of a monarch or head of family, with sons and their male issue inheriting before brothers and their issue.

Thus, when Rhaegar was killed Aerys' heir became baby Aegon (not Viserys). Then, if R+L=J (where "+" equals "married"), when baby Aegon was killed Aerys' heir became Jon. Then again, it appears Aegon is back and, of course, R+L may not, in fact, equal J ;)

[King Doug]

Isn't that true only in the immediate family line though?

I thought the "heirship" passed to the line of the family that was still alive. That is, Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, but he died before Aerys. Upon Rhaegar's death, Viserys, as Aerys' second son, became Aerys' heir, not Aerys' grandson Aegon (or Jon).

Likewise, when Viserys died, Danerys would be his heir because even though Aegon (and/or Jon) are male Targaryen decedents, the royal claim had already passed to their uncle Viserys.

To draw a parallel, it seems well accepted that Myrcella is Tommen's heir to the Iron Throne and not Stannis.

Robert (1) Stannis

|

Joffrey (2)| Tommen (3) | Myrcella (Heir)

Aerys (1)

|

Rhaegar (Dead) | Viserys (2) | Danerys (3)

|

Aegon | Jon?

Or another... with Tywin Lannister dead, Jaime in the KG and Tyrion disinherited for killing Tywin, Cersei is clearly the heir to Casterly Rock and not Kevan or his son Lancel.

No when Rhaegar died, Aegon inherits everything that Rhaegar had. He inherits lands/incomes/titles. Including being the heir.

We see an example of this in The Hedge Knight. Baelor Breakspear dies as a result of a wound that occurred during Dunk's Trial of Seven. Baelor was the crown prince, and he had brothers (the King's other sons, such as Maekar). When Baelor died, his son become heir because he inherited his titles.

Another example is the Frey line of succession. That is talked about in length throughout the books. Especially in ACoK when Lord Walder's 1st son and heir died (Stevron) it passed to his son (Ryman). When Ryman died, his eldest son became heir (Edwyn, I think that's his name).

ETA: you are correct about Robert Baratheon's line of succession. It goes Robert then Joff then Tommen then Myrcella then Stannis. It only passes from Joff to Tommen because Joff doesn't have kids. Passes from Tommen to Myrcella for the same reason. If Tommen and Myrcella both die, then under normal circumstances it would then pass to Stannis.

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

My theory is that if and when Dany comes to westeros, Stannis will view her as a threat, try to fight her, and be burned alive. The vision of stannis being consumed by his flaming crown (hope I'm getting that right) could be interpreted as him being consumed by a desire for his "birthright", and in trying to secure it, being flambe'd by a dragon.

[MikeDC]

@ King Doug... OK, I'm convinced, good explanation.

[aryagonnakill]

Just a technicality, niether joffrey, nor tommen, nor myrcella is technically in any line of succession besides casterly rock, in a legal sense. Roberts Crown legally passed to Stannis