Manderly's Navy and Heavy Horse

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1. I believe that houses like Tarly Redwyne and Rowan are stronger than the average Reach House. That is the reason that I placed their power at 8000 men and those of other noble Houses in 4000 men. I just think that these houses are somewhat stronger than the average Tyrell bannermem.

2. Yes the incomes are larger than ever but the expenses are way larger ,the definition of debt is expenses being bigger than incomes.

3. What I meant by a professional army is that they would have better training, being assembled more often and would have more decent equipment with good riding horses and better weapons, full plates, and many longbows because the King would be able to equip more men with the money on his treasury. These men would still be farmers ,tradesmen etc. They would be similar to the francs archers(free archers) and the Gendarmes( men at arms) armies of 15th century France.They were numerous (somewhere 16000 archers and 28000 men at arms in 1450 Caen) would live in their homes most of the year but are considered the first standing army by historians.

And I do not believe that the Crownlands and King's Landing have been hit so hard that it is so difficult to gather a large force from the area. It's more a problem of lack of money and trust by the lords of the area to the new royal family.

1. Average size is irrelevant. Being stronger than the average Reach house is irrelevant. House Hightower can muster at least three times the numbers of any other Reach house...period. If you are uncomfortable adjust your numbers.

2. The definition of debt is an obligation owed to another (usually a creditor). The book acknowledges that Crown expenses are larger than ever, but not larger than the Crown's increased income. The problem was that all of the Crown's income was going to paying off its debt.

3. Still, this idea is uncommon for the Seven Kingdoms. Aerys may have done something like this in the past, but I don't know how the royal army was assembled. Anyway, its a moot point, as Robert bankrupted the realm.

4. Never said the Crownlands didn't have the men. I said it was a matter of loyalty. The men of the Crownlands are still dragonmen. When Aegon/Dany moves they will rise.

[pavlosbal]

1. Average size is irrelevant. Being stronger than the average Reach house is irrelevant. House Hightower can muster at least three times the numbers of any other Reach house...period. If you are uncomfortable adjust your numbers.

2. The definition of debt is an obligation owed to another (usually a creditor). The book acknowledges that Crown expenses are larger than ever, but not larger than the Crown's increased income. The problem was that all of the Crown's income was going to paying off its debt.

3. Still, this idea is uncommon for the Seven Kingdoms. Aerys may have done something like this in the past, but I don't know how the royal army was assembled. Anyway, its a moot point, as Robert bankrupted the realm.

4. Never said the Crownlands didn't have the men. I said it was a matter of loyalty. The men of the Crownlands are still dragonmen. When Aegon/Dany moves they will rise.

1 15000 seem a logical number to me. If Hightower had 24000 men (three times the number of a house like Tarly or Redwyne) and Tyrell 20000 soldiers then the other houses would on average have 8000 men. With the number of noble houses that the Reach has if I gave more than 4000 soldiers then the total number of military forces on the Reach would be very high. So as I wrote before Tyrell 20000 soldiers Hightower 15000 soldiers Rowan,Tarly,and Redwyne 8000 soldiers the rest 4000 soldiers.

2 The problem was not that all the incomes went to paying off the debts (unless there is a passage in the book that says so). the problem was that Robert spent too much. In fact I believe the debt was increasing and the reason for that would be expenses being bigger than revenues. If all the income was spent paying off debts then the debt would be paid off eventually.

3 I meant similar to the armiy that Arys and other Targaryens had an army. Not an army like the ones we have today.

4 I also think many of them will rise up once word of Aegon's attack on Griffin's Roost reaches the nobles of the Crownlands. But they not believe him so easily and wait for Dany and her dragons.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1 15000 seem a logical number to me. If Hightower had 24000 men (three times the number of a house like Tarly or Redwyne) and Tyrell 20000 soldiers then the other houses would on average have 8000 men. With the number of noble houses that the Reach has if I gave more than 4000 soldiers then the total number of military forces on the Reach would be very high. So as I wrote before Tyrell 20000 soldiers Hightower 15000 soldiers Rowan,Tarly,and Redwyne 8000 soldiers the rest 4000 soldiers.

2 The problem was not that all the incomes went to paying off the debts (unless there is a passage in the book that says so). the problem was that Robert spent too much. In fact I believe the debt was increasing and the reason for that would be expenses being bigger than revenues. If all the income was spent paying off debts then the debt would be paid off eventually.

3 I meant similar to the armiy that Arys and other Targaryens had an army. Not an army like the ones we have today.

4 I also think many of them will rise up once word of Aegon's attack on Griffin's Roost reaches the nobles of the Crownlands. But they not believe him so easily and wait for Dany and her dragons.

1. This is all speculation, but you have to build any numbers you create around the fact that House Hightower can summon at least three times the number of any other Tyrell bannerman. If Tarly can summon 8k, then Hightower can summon at least 24k. The Hightowers control the most concentration of population in the Reach.

2. I don't know how to simplify this any further. Robert squandered the vast treasury left by Aerys. When there was no more gold to spend, Little Finger borrowed from Tywin, the Faith, the Tyrells, and some trading cartels. This put the Crown into debt. Debt is an expense. Both LF and Tyrion increased the Crown incomes to point that they had never in their history been higher. However, due to the war and other factors, expenses also rose. Never in the book does it say that expenses exceeded income (you made that up). As we all know, when you have debt you continually pay until its paid off over a period of time. There was no problem until Cersei suspended payments to the iron bank. The problem is that virtually all the Crown income is going to its expenses (including debt) and therefore the treasury cannot be replenished.

4. I don't think the Crownlands will put Aegon through a loyalty test. They will follow him and then a conflict will ensue once Dany gets there.

[pavlosbal]

1. This is all speculation, but you have to build any numbers you create around the fact that House Hightower can summon at least three times the number of any other Tyrell bannerman. If Tarly can summon 8k, then Hightower can summon at least 24k. The Hightowers control the most concentration of population in the Reach.

2. I don't know how to simplify this any further. Robert squandered the vast treasury left by Aerys. When there was no more gold to spend, Little Finger borrowed from Tywin, the Faith, the Tyrells, and some trading cartels. This put the Crown into debt. Debt is an expense. Both LF and Tyrion increased the Crown incomes to point that they had never in their history been higher. However, due to the war and other factors, expenses also rose. Never in the book does it say that expenses exceeded income (you made that up). As we all know, when you have debt you continually pay until its paid off over a period of time. There was no problem until Cersei suspended payments to the iron bank. The problem is that virtually all the Crown income is going to its expenses (including debt) and therefore the treasury cannot be replenished.

4. I don't think the Crownlands will put Aegon through a loyalty test. They will follow him and then a conflict will ensue once Dany gets there.

1 But not all houses can have the same power level. When you say that Hightowers have three times the number of any Tyrell bannerman you can't believe that all the houses have the same number of men. Some have more men some have less. That is why I used an average number. Rowans may have 6000 but Florents have only 2000.

2 After four years studying economics and getting a university degree I believe I understand better what debt is. Debt is expenses being more than income. Robert for example had a number of money in treasury let's say X and an income of Y. X+Y have to be bigger than the expenses,E, in order for the kingdom to borrow. I mean than in addition to what Robert spent from his incomes he also borrowed more money to spend even more. Technically there is no difference in what we are saying.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

1 But not all houses can have the same power level. When you say that Hightowers have three times the number of any Tyrell bannerman you can't believe that all the houses have the same number of men. Some have more men some have less. That is why I used an average number. Rowans may have 6000 but Florents have only 2000.

2 After four years studying economics and getting a university degree I believe I understand better what debt is. Debt is expenses being more than income. Robert for example had a number of money in treasury let's say X and an income of Y. X+Y have to be bigger than the expenses,E, in order for the kingdom to borrow. I mean than in addition to what Robert spent from his incomes he also borrowed more money to spend even more. Technically there is no difference in what we are saying.

1. The point I'm trying to make is that it is irrelevant that the strength of the other Reach varies. When Samwell gave us Lord Randyll's analysis, it encompassed both the major lords and the minor lords. The Hightowers can raise at least three times the numbers of the Tyrell's strongest bannerman and many more times the weaker lords. I'm also asserting that this makes sense b/c the Hightower's likely control the greatest concentration of population in the Reach.

I understand your point and it make sense. But it still stands to reason you are low balling the Hightowers by quite a bit at 15k. The control what is by far the oldest (and I think still the greatest) city in all of Westeros. The population likely falls between 400k and 500k people. They control 5 major bannerman of their own (Costayne, Bullwer, Cuy, Mullendore, and Beesbury). They control incredibly fertile and choice land (along the Honeywine, the Sunset Sea, and the Whispering Sound). I don't necessarily disagree with your methodology, just the results.

[pavlosbal]

1. The point I'm trying to make is that it is irrelevant that the strength of the other Reach varies. When Samwell gave us Lord Randyll's analysis, it encompassed both the major lords and the minor lords. The Hightowers can raise at least three times the numbers of the Tyrell's strongest bannerman and many more times the weaker lords. I'm also asserting that this makes sense b/c the Hightower's likely control the greatest concentration of population in the Reach.

I understand your point and it make sense. But it still stands to reason you are low balling the Hightowers by quite a bit at 15k. The control what is by far the oldest (and I think still the greatest) city in all of Westeros. The population likely falls between 400k and 500k people. They control 5 major bannerman of their own (Costayne, Bullwer, Cuy, Mullendore, and Beesbury). They control incredibly fertile and choice land (along the Honeywine, the Sunset Sea, and the Whispering Sound). I don't necessarily disagree with your methodology, just the results.

Well I tried to give more men to the other houses but then the overall power of the Reach would be too big. more than 4000 men on average for a Reach house would give the Reach more than 110000 men and less would give them very few men. So that is the reason I used 4000 men. Any other number would make the Reach as a whole either too powerful or too weak.The numbers I gave are the only ones that make the Reach as powerful as we all think it is and also makes the Highotwers far more powerful than any other bannerman of the Reach.

[Lord Roivas]

House Hightower at 24,000 men. Where are you guys gathering these numbers from? That's grossly infalted. They don't have a quarter of the total Reach soldiers.

As I recall they were said to have 10,000 men. 24,000 is an insanely high number.

I'm also curious as to why you count Oldtown as separate from Hightower. 10,000 men is including Oldtown as it is their domain. It wouldn't be separate.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

House Hightower at 24,000 men. Where are you guys gathering these numbers from? That's grossly infalted. They don't have a quarter of the total Reach soldiers.

As I recall they were said to have 10,000 men. 24,000 is an insanely high number.

I'm also curious as to why you count Oldtown as separate from Hightower. 10,000 men is including Oldtown as it is their domain. It wouldn't be separate.

All of these number are estimates. The numbers of House Hightower and the other Reach houses are never given, in the book or anywhere else, except for house Florent. Where you got the 10,000 from in beyond me.

If you check the ASOIAF maps, you will see the castles of the Hightower bannerman (Costayne, Bulwer, Beesbury, Cuy, and Mullendore) covering that entire corner of the Reach, giving them dominion from the Whispering Sound to the end of the Honeywine River. Oldtown is their primary domain, but you must start with their surrounding environments for recruitment.

Its fully stated in the books (AFFC) that the Hightowers can muster three times the men of any other house in the Reach, even before they tap into Oldtown. As already stated, Oldtown likely has 400,000-500,000 inhabitants. If add the large surrounding area that the Hightowers command, and the likely very high population density due to the presence of the Honeywine River, Whispering Sound, and Sunset Sea, it makes perfect sense that 24,000-40,000 men are very reasonable.

In the future, please read the books and check the maps before you post.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Well I tried to give more men to the other houses but then the overall power of the Reach would be too big. more than 4000 men on average for a Reach house would give the Reach more than 110000 men and less would give them very few men. So that is the reason I used 4000 men. Any other number would make the Reach as a whole either too powerful or too weak.The numbers I gave are the only ones that make the Reach as powerful as we all think it is and also makes the Highotwers far more powerful than any other bannerman of the Reach.

Thats the problem with averaging, you simply cannot get the proper allocation of men to each house. The Tyrells mustered 70,000 men without real any Hightower involvement (Mark Mullendore and a some men from the Uplands are mentioned directly). The Florents are considered very powerful, but muster at most 2,000 men. 2,000 or less is the likely norm, except for the major lords (Hightower, Oakheart, Rowan, Redywnes, Tarly, and Fossoway). Remember, there are 64 named houses in the Reach, 68 if you count the Shield Islands. Due to the Reach's heavy population numbers, 1,000+ men per house is not out of the question. With the so many contributors to the Reach forces, it stands to reason that each Reach lord can send only a fraction of its best men, keep the bulk of its forces home, and still due its featly to the Tyrells. Additionally, Loras tells Cersei that Willas and Garland can easily raise another 20,000 men within the month, again, not counting the Hightowers, whom Willas told to see to their own defenses. All of this makes perfect sense given what we know.

120,000+ men make perfect sense for the Reach (2,000+ men per house average). You make think that this is too powerful, but you have to take into account the quality of the force as a whole. The vast majority of the forces will be masses of foot soldiers and men-at-arms. Aside from the Hightowers, Mace Tyrell likely took the best of the best troops with him east.

[pavlosbal]

Thats the problem with averaging, you simply cannot get the proper allocation of men to each house. The Tyrells mustered 70,000 men without real any Hightower involvement (Mark Mullendore and a some men from the Uplands are mentioned directly). The Florents are considered very powerful, but muster at most 2,000 men. 2,000 or less is the likely norm, except for the major lords (Hightower, Oakheart, Rowan, Redywnes, Tarly, and Fossoway). Remember, there are 64 named houses in the Reach, 68 if you count the Shield Islands. Due to the Reach's heavy population numbers, 1,000+ men per house is not out of the question. With the so many contributors to the Reach forces, it stands to reason that each Reach lord can send only a fraction of its best men, keep the bulk of its forces home, and still due its featly to the Tyrells. Additionally, Loras tells Cersei that Willas and Garland can easily raise another 20,000 men within the month, again, not counting the Hightowers, whom Willas told to see to their own defenses. All of this makes perfect sense given what we know.

120,000+ men make perfect sense for the Reach (2,000+ men per house average). You make think that this is too powerful, but you have to take into account the quality of the force as a whole. The vast majority of the forces will be masses of foot soldiers and men-at-arms. Aside from the Hightowers, Mace Tyrell likely took the best of the best troops with him east.

Ok so I made a new list which seem more realistic to you. The number of houses in the Reach is 70 not 68 not that it makes a great difference in the calculations but anyway. There are 25 noble houses so the other 45 are sworn to the bigger ones.

House Tyrell: 20000 soldiers

Houses Rowan: 5000

Tarly 5000 soldiers

Redwyne 5000 soldiers

Ashford 5000 soldiers

Fossoway 5000 soldiers

The other houses(not including the Hightowers) 3000 soldiers each: 57000 soldiers

House Hightower: 16000 soldiers

Total: 118000 soldiers

If the Hightowers muster another 3000 men that's 120000.

By the way did you mean in your post that men at arms are an inferior type of soldier? Maybe I misunderstood.

[sentence]

House Tyrell: 20000 soldiers

Houses Rowan: 5000

Tarly 5000 soldiers

Redwyne 5000 soldiers

Ashford 5000 soldiers

Fossoway 5000 soldiers

The other houses(not including the Hightowers) 3000 soldiers each: 57000 soldiers

House Hightower: 16000 soldiers

Total: 118000 soldiers

too linear.

I would say,

"tier 1" houses: Hightower, Redwine, Rowan & Florent..

the real strenght of each house may vary.. anyway, Hightower would be clearly upon the others, and Redwine is, above all, a maritime power).

"tier 2" houses: the above mentioned Tarly, Fossoway, Ashford... most of named houses we find in the appendixes

"tier 3" houses: minor houses (shield islands lords, for example), power landed knights, etc..

Note that the Reach has up to four (4) "major houses", opposite the other kingdons, that only have 1 "major house" apart the ruling House: Yronwood in Dorne, Royce in the Valley, Harlaw in the Iron Islands. In the Westerlands, Riverlands, Stormlands & The North seems not to be such a "major house" (maybe pre-Tywin Castamere would be exception). I mean, Freys ("new richs"), Bolton or pre-rebellion Connington are the largest not-ruling House in their regions, buy there would not be such a difference than the formerly mentioned.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

too linear.

I would say,

"tier 1" houses: Hightower, Redwine, Rowan & Florent..

the real strenght of each house may vary.. anyway, Hightower would be clearly upon the others, and Redwine is, above all, a maritime power).

"tier 2" houses: the above mentioned Tarly, Fossoway, Ashford... most of named houses we find in the appendixes

"tier 3" houses: minor houses (shield islands lords, for example), power landed knights, etc..

Note that the Reach has up to four (4) "major houses", opposite the other kingdons, that only have 1 "major house" apart the ruling House: Yronwood in Dorne, Royce in the Valley, Harlaw in the Iron Islands. In the Westerlands, Riverlands, Stormlands & The North seems not to be such a "major house" (maybe pre-Tywin Castamere would be exception). I mean, Freys ("new richs"), Bolton or pre-rebellion Connington are the largest not-ruling House in their regions, buy there would not be such a difference than the formerly mentioned.

Tier 1: Hightower, Redwyne, Rowan, and Oakheart

Tier 2: Tarly, Florent, Fossoway, Ashford

Number 2 Houses:

North: Bolton - can muster 3,500-4,000 men. Have been biter rivals for thousands of years.

Vale: Royce - can muster 4,000+ men.

Riverlands: Freys - extremely wealthy and can must 4,000 men

Dorne: Yronwood - probably 2,000+

Reach: Hightower (already talked about)

Iron Islands: Harlaw - can likely muster 4,000+ sailors

Stormlands: Kind of tricky. The Dondarrions can muster at least 4800, but they are below the Carons. The Swanns are very powerful and can likely muster something close to the Dondarrions, but they likewise serve the Carons. So I would have to say the Carons b/c they control the Dondarrions and Swanns, in addition to their own forces.

[Free Northman]

The three most powerful non-Great Houses in Westeros are in order of strength most likely:

House Hightower

House Redwynne

House Manderly

House Hightower can likely raise close to 20k men at full strength.

House Redwynne probably close to 15k, although these would largely be naval forces.

House Manderly likely around 10k.

[JonisHenryTudor]

A navy on a frozen river and heavy armored horse in deep snow sound like a recipe for disaster to me, and I for one can't stand the thought of reading another book with these scumbags controlling the north and Winterfell. So lets hope Mel can light one hell of a fire to let Manderly's forces kick some major Frey and BOlton ass

A bit different, but not too much: Agincourt. In other words, I agree.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The three most powerful non-Great Houses in Westeros are in order of strength most likely:

House Hightower

House Redwynne

House Manderly

House Hightower can likely raise close to 20k men at full strength.

House Redwynne probably close to 15k, although these would largely be naval forces.

House Manderly likely around 10k.

I pretty much agree, except I would raise the Hightower numbers, should they decide to go all out and empty Oldtown. I also am interested in the strength of Gerold Grafton (Lord of Gulltown). Not much is mentioned, but it seems likely that he would be on par with Redwyne and Manderly.

[sentence]

The three most powerful non-Great Houses in Westeros are in order of strength most likely:

House Hightower

House Redwynne

House Manderly

House Hightower can likely raise close to 20k men at full strength.

House Redwynne probably close to 15k, although these would largely be naval forces.

House Manderly likely around 10k.

NO

you are overstimating Manderly quite a lot

Manderly third house of westeros? not even is the first house (apart ruling one) in one of the less populated kingdons (apart Dorne & Iron Islands)

...

and speaking about "second houeses", ¿what does it mean? are we refering to wealth? military strenght? autonomy from his liege-lords? well... the result may vary

your list is highly arguable.. but we can't consider Manderly the third house in Westeros. no way.

(I 'd put Hightower, Royce, Yronwood, but as said before, is arguable)

......

Anyway, raw numbers mean less than nothing, We need to consider matters like training, equipment, moral, professionalism, command...

a small, hardened, determinated army has proven to be able to beat much larger ones.

Alexander in Persia, Cortes in Mexico, etc..

[Free Northman]

NO

you are overstimating Manderly quite a lot

Manderly third house of westeros? not even is the first house (apart ruling one) in one of the less populated kingdons (apart Dorne & Iron Islands)

...

and speaking about "second houeses", ¿what does it mean? are we refering to wealth? military strenght? autonomy from his liege-lords? well... the result may vary

your list is highly arguable.. but we can't consider Manderly the third house in Westeros. no way.

(I 'd put Hightower, Royce, Yronwood, but as said before, is arguable)

......

Anyway, raw numbers mean less than nothing, We need to consider matters like training, equipment, moral, professionalism, command...

a small, hardened, determinated army has proven to be able to beat much larger ones.

Alexander in Persia, Cortes in Mexico, etc..

On the contrary, I may be putting Manderly too low.

The lords ruling the cities of Westeros will be the most powerful lords in terms of manpower and wealth. Paxter Redwynne is the exception due to ruling the very rich Arbor and his massive shipping fleet.

Going through the cities, we see that King's Landing is ruled by the King, so it can be scratched from the list.

Oldtown is ruled by the Hightowers and hence they are no.1 on the list of non-Great Houses.

Lannisport is ruled directly from Casterly Rock and thus can also be scratched from the list.

Gulltown is home to the Graftons as well as to some lords who are vassals to House Royce. So its wealth and manpower is split between a number of Houses. Furthermore, the Graftons clearly do not rule much territory beyond Gulltown.

Next we have the Manderlys, who not only rule the entire White Harbor, but also rule a vast territory surrounding it. (Vast in comparison to southern lords who rule much smaller territories in general.) Manderly also rules the most fertile lands in the North, as well as dominates themain trade route into the Northern interior.

Combine all of this and he is indeed one of the most powerful lords in Westeros, excluding the Great Houses.

Powerful in terms of manpower and wealth, not necessarily in terms of influence and status.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

On the contrary, I may be putting Manderly too low.

The lords ruling the cities of Westeros will be the most powerful lords in terms of manpower and wealth. Paxter Redwynne is the exception due to ruling the very rich Arbor and his massive shipping fleet.

Going through the cities, we see that King's Landing is ruled by the King, so it can be scratched from the list.

Oldtown is ruled by the Hightowers and hence they are no.1 on the list of non-Great Houses.

Lannisport is ruled directly from Casterly Rock and thus can also be scratched from the list.

Gulltown is home to the Graftons as well as to some lords who are vassals to House Royce. So its wealth and manpower is split between a number of Houses. Furthermore, the Graftons clearly do not rule much territory beyond Gulltown.

Next we have the Manderlys, who not only rule the entire White Harbor, but also rule a vast territory surrounding it. (Vast in comparison to southern lords who rule much smaller territories in general.) Manderly also rules the most fertile lands in the North, as well as dominates themain trade route into the Northern interior.

Combine all of this and he is indeed one of the most powerful lords in Westeros, excluding the Great Houses.

Powerful in terms of manpower and wealth, not necessarily in terms of influence and status.

Whoa, lets not get ahead of ourselves. You are making some pretty big assumptions about House Grafton, which the text and facts do not necessarily support.

I have checked the maps of the Vale and see that Runstone and Gulltown share the same peninsula, but power allocation and population density are not mentioned. I know the Shetts have their seat at Gull Tower, but that does not mean its located in Gulltown. The Arryn fleet (which I assume still exist), which fought house Targaryen to a standstill and prevented invasion of the Vale, is likely located in Gulltown and likely under the control of the Graftons. Additionally, House Grafton stayed loyal to Aerys and fought Jon Arryn hard before Robert slew the lord at the time. The Graftons are likely immensely wealthy and could control land extending from their share of the peninsula to the area south of the peninsula.

I love House Manderly as well, but lets clear up a few things. Lord Manderly is in control of some petty lords and large areas, but he only influences the Flint's and Lockes. That is a small but important difference. They are not his bannerman, and their lands are not directly under his control. The influence is likely economic and therefore for all intents and purposes is direct control.

[pavlosbal]

too linear.

I would say,

"tier 1" houses: Hightower, Redwine, Rowan & Florent..

the real strenght of each house may vary.. anyway, Hightower would be clearly upon the others, and Redwine is, above all, a maritime power).

"tier 2" houses: the above mentioned Tarly, Fossoway, Ashford... most of named houses we find in the appendixes

"tier 3" houses: minor houses (shield islands lords, for example), power landed knights, etc..

Note that the Reach has up to four (4) "major houses", opposite the other kingdons, that only have 1 "major house" apart the ruling House: Yronwood in Dorne, Royce in the Valley, Harlaw in the Iron Islands. In the Westerlands, Riverlands, Stormlands & The North seems not to be such a "major house" (maybe pre-Tywin Castamere would be exception). I mean, Freys ("new richs"), Bolton or pre-rebellion Connington are the largest not-ruling House in their regions, buy there would not be such a difference than the formerly mentioned.

Well maybe the Fossoways, Tarlys and Ashfords have less men maybe close to 4000 soldiers and not 5000. But the Florents are definitely tier 3 alongside all those houses I don't name. They just have a relation to the Gardeners but they are not an important military power. So the list I made is not wrong just some houses are less powerful But if you think anything else is not right I am open to suggestion

I would say that there are three tiers:

Tier 1: House Tyrell: 20000 soldiers

Hightower: 16000

Redwyne: 5000 soldiers

Rowan 5000 soldiers

Oakheart 5000 soldiers

Tier 2: Tarly:4000 soldiers

Fossoway :4000 soldiers

Ashford:4000 soldiers

Tier 3: All other noble and knightly houses ( and house Florent): 62000 soldiers. Most of these knights and men at arms are however paid by the Tyrells since they probalby live in lands that belong to the tyrells as seneschals provosts and baillifs and don't own the lands. So actually the men at arms knights and footmen under direct Tyrell control are close to 65.000 men.

Total: 120000 soldiers.

The numbers between houses of the same tier may vary a little bit ( maybe Tarly has 400 men more than Ashford for example or there may be other small differences) but we don't have much information about the Reach houses so I used number easier to calculate. But I believe that the Reach houses do not usually mobilize all these forces. The majority of the Reach armies are probably men at arms in full plate and powerful cavalry probably in greater proportion than other Houses. The Reach is probably modeled after France which had as much as 60% foot men at arms clad in full plate in their armies and were the most powerful military force in Western Europe( Yes many would say what about Agincourt, but the French won ten times more battles than the English during the war and killed ten times more English than the English killed French). So I think that these numbers are just a part of the military forces of the Reach they can muster many more men if needed but of course they would be of lesser quality.

[Vympel]

Its probably already been raised - but does anyone think its a coincidence that Manderly managed to get himself wounded right before the battle?

White Harbor might prove troublesome should Lord Wyman survive this coming battle … but I am quite sure that he will not. No more than

Stannis. Roose will remove both of them, as he removed the Young Wolf. Who else is there?”

How convenient that Wyman should be incapacitated before he has to go out into the snow and find some Frey or Bolton sword in his back.