Manderly's Navy and Heavy Horse

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Its probably already been raised - but does anyone think its a coincidence that Manderly managed to get himself wounded right before the battle?

How convenient that Wyman should be incapacitated before he has to go out into the snow and find some Frey or Bolton sword in his back.

Well, the injury is so serious, it is life threatening. I seriously doubt he planned it.

[Vympel]

Well, the injury is so serious, it is life threatening. I seriously doubt he planned it.

I doubt he planned it to be that serious (on balance, I think he'll be fine) but I don't believe he deliberately provoked the Freys without an inkling of what they might do.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I doubt he planned it to be that serious (on balance, I think he'll be fine) but I don't believe he deliberately provoked the Freys without an inkling of what they might do.

His hatred for the Freys is undeniable, and I think it just got the best of him.

[Lord Damian]

I wonder if wyman dies from his wound?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I wonder if wyman dies from his wound?

I think the maester patched him up, but he may be touch and go for a while.

[Cybvep]

Where will he stay now? It seems that he won't be safe anywhere.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I think Manderly intentionally bickered with the Freys in hopes of a response. If the Freys had killed him, Roose would have had to have punished the Freys, alienating his only ally, or not punished them, which alienates the rest of the north. Manderly is much more cunning than most give him credit for.

[us3rname]

Its probably already been raised - but does anyone think its a coincidence that Manderly managed to get himself wounded right before the battle?

How convenient that Wyman should be incapacitated before he has to go out into the snow and find some Frey or Bolton sword in his back.

sorry but isnt wyman manderly too fat to be going out into battle anyway ?

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

I think the TV show has given us a great hint.

The last episode of season 3 showed Asha Greyjoy sailing away on longships packed with killers to go assault the Dreadfort. This of course isn't going to happen in the books, but there are lots of cases of the main TV characters doing the actions of the multitudes of minor characters they can't possibly film (Loras taking over Willas's pre-engagement to Sansa, Gendry taking over Edric Storm's escape from Dragonstone, Daario taking over all the other mercenary captains, Ros taking over for like 3 different hookers, etc...)

I think this means the Manderly navy is headed up the Weeping Water River for the Dreadfort. Considering the majority of the Bolton forces are at Winterfell, I'd guess that the Dreadfort has already been taken, and that's what Manderly is so smug about.

"He would have grown up to be a Frey." -my favorite line of ADWD

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Never in the book does it say that expenses exceeded income (you made that up).

It is expressly stated that Littlefinger borrowed money to meet crown expenses, which means that expenses were exceeding income. The Crown could not have gotten in as horrible debt as it was unless expenses exceeded income.

[chrisdaw]

They'll make good stock for the Others.

[Stannis the Menace]

I think the TV show has given us a great hint.

The last episode of season 3 showed Asha Greyjoy sailing away on longships packed with killers to go assault the Dreadfort. This of course isn't going to happen in the books, but there are lots of cases of the main TV characters doing the actions of the multitudes of minor characters they can't possibly film (Loras taking over Willas's pre-engagement to Sansa, Gendry taking over Edric Storm's escape from Dragonstone, Daario taking over all the other mercenary captains, Ros taking over for like 3 different hookers, etc...)

I think this means the Manderly navy is headed up the Weeping Water River for the Dreadfort. Considering the majority of the Bolton forces are at Winterfell, I'd guess that the Dreadfort has already been taken, and that's what Manderly is so smug about.

"He would have grown up to be a Frey." -my favorite line of ADWD

Definitely my favorite zing

[Stannis the Menace]

It is expressly stated that Littlefinger borrowed money to meet crown expenses, which means that expenses were exceeding income. The Crown could not have gotten in as horrible debt as it was unless expenses exceeded income.

yea thats like basic logic

[LilJonUmber]

I think this means the Manderly navy is headed up the Weeping Water River for the Dreadfort. Considering the majority of the Bolton forces are at Winterfell, I'd guess that the Dreadfort has already been taken, and that's what Manderly is so smug about.

"He would have grown up to be a Frey." -my favorite line of ADWD

That's an interesting theory. It would certainly explain his supreme confidence.

I also assume that part of Manderly's fleet is to sail North up the White Knife to approach Winterfell by East, while the other heads up the Northwest part of the WK. From a tactical standpoint, that'd cut off Roose's escape route back to the Dreadfort, while sandwiching the Bolton forces between his and Stannis', and cut off a potential retreat to Barrowton.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

It is expressly stated that Littlefinger borrowed money to meet crown expenses, which means that expenses were exceeding income. The Crown could not have gotten in as horrible debt as it was unless expenses exceeded income.

This works if you count the debt as part of regular expenses. Income was being diverted away from normal expenditures to pay off the crowns debts.

My larger point comes from ASOS where LF and Tyrion had increased the Crown incomes to the point where it was the largest in history. Tywin refused to pay for the royal wedding or forgive the Crown's debt to Casterly Rock b/c of this.

My point was that incomes as they were, likely could have met or exceeded expenses absent the debts, tournaments, royal weddings, etc,.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

yea thats like basic logic

Basic logic works for basic readers who cannot interpret the larger concepts, principles, and historical context that encompasses a work as grand as this.

[Napyura]

This works if you count the debt as part of regular expenses. Income was being diverted away from normal expenditures to pay off the crowns debts.

My larger point comes from ASOS where LF and Tyrion had increased the Crown incomes to the point where it was the largest in history. Tywin refused to pay for the royal wedding or forgive the Crown's debt to Casterly Rock b/c of this.

My point was that incomes as they were, likely could have met or exceeded expenses absent the debts, tournaments, royal weddings, etc,.

Littlefinger cared for himself. Thus mountain of gold dissapeared somewhere where nobody expected, his pockets, under the guise of Robert's debts, tournaments or whatever you call it. He had record incomes, he had record loans and it still wasn't sufficient, I don't know how big scale of that went into corruption, his pockets and other lavish expenses.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Littlefinger cared for himself. Thus mountain of gold dissapeared somewhere where nobody expected, his pockets, under the guise of Robert's debts, tournaments or whatever you call it. He had record incomes, he had record loans and it still wasn't sufficient, I don't know how big scale of that went into corruption, his pockets and other lavish expenses.

LF definitely raped the Crown for all it was worth and more. Aerys Targaryen left a treasury overflowing with gold. Additionally, Robert took tons of gold and land from houses loyal to the Targaryens. Add all of that to normal Crown incomes and Robert had to do quite a bit of spending to get the Crown into such bad shape. I'm sure LF played a large role.

[Demonblade]

I love House Manderly as well, but lets clear up a few things. Lord Manderly is in control of some petty lords and large areas, but he only influences the Flint's and Lockes. That is a small but important difference. They are not his bannerman, and their lands are not directly under his control. The influence is likely economic and therefore for all intents and purposes is direct control.

According to a Wiki of Ice and Fire, Lord Manderley is lord of the "the largest settlement north of the Neck, but the smallest among the five major cities of Westeros". http://awoiaf.wester...hp/White_Harbor . As mentioned earlier, the five major cities of Westeros are Oldtown, King's Landing, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbor. The wealth and strength of King's Landing (Iron Throne), Lannisport (Lannisters) and Oldtown (Hightowers) are quite well known, and though we haven't seen much of Gulltown (other than a few references by Littlefinger, who appears confident that their strength will add to his, once used), we can guess at the significance of its military strength and economic importance. We don't know the strength or influence this city can have on the outcome of the story, but if being included in the notion of the 'five major cities of the Seven Kingdoms' means anything, their wealth and influence must be considerable. The same goes for the Manderleys. The Manderleys, while not having the most robust of economies among the five major cities, still control a considerable amount of land and resources surrounding it. In other words, White Harbor is the fifth largest settlement in Westeros, and the major port of the top half of the continent. That alone is sufficient to support both the Manderley's military strength as well as their economic influence. He is lord of the most dominant economy in the North, as well as the lands that surround it, which are considerable.

White Harbor, while the smallest of the major cities, is still a city with a relatively strong economy, and the Manderley's, as lords of both the city and region, have considerable wealth and influence.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

According to a Wiki of Ice and Fire, Lord Manderley is lord of the "the largest settlement north of the Neck, but the smallest among the five major cities of Westeros". http://awoiaf.wester...hp/White_Harbor . As mentioned earlier, the five major cities of Westeros are Oldtown, King's Landing, Lannisport, Gulltown and White Harbor. The wealth and strength of King's Landing (Iron Throne), Lannisport (Lannisters) and Oldtown (Hightowers) are quite well known, and though we haven't seen much of Gulltown (other than a few references by Littlefinger, who appears confident that their strength will add to his, once used), we can guess at the significance of its military strength and economic importance. We don't know the strength or influence this city can have on the outcome of the story, but if being included in the notion of the 'five major cities of the Seven Kingdoms' means anything, their wealth and influence must be considerable. The same goes for the Manderleys. The Manderleys, while not having the most robust of economies among the five major cities, still control a considerable amount of land and resources surrounding it. In other words, White Harbor is the fifth largest settlement in Westeros, and the major port of the top half of the continent. That alone is sufficient to support both the Manderley's military strength as well as their economic influence. He is lord of the most dominant economy in the North, as well as the lands that surround it, which are considerable.

White Harbor, while the smallest of the major cities, is still a city with a relatively strong economy, and the Manderley's, as lords of both the city and region, have considerable wealth and influence.

I've already discussed all of your points ad nauseam and essentially agree. Some posters have placed the economic and military strength of House Manderly on par with the greatest Houses in the realm. There was talk of Lord Manderly mustering 10,000-15,000 men, in addition to the 5,000 plus men he would need for his 50 plus war galleys. That is an enormous amount of strength and bit much in my opinion. It was also stated that he owns a silver mine (just not true) and that all of the lords in the area were his bannerman. Thats not true of the Flints and Lockes. He likely has strong economic influence over them however.

I will definitely place them in the top 10 of houses, but well outside of the top 5. If we limit the discussion to the non paramount houses, then I will put him in the top 5:

Including paramount houses (military and economic strength:

1. Lannister

2. Tyrell

3. Hightower

4. Redwyne

From there is get tricky. You have to look at Walder Frey, Lord Grafton, Doran Martell, and Wyman Manderly.