Manderly's Navy and Heavy Horse

[aryagonnakill]

I don't see any reason to suspect Manderly of ulterior motives other than getting back at the Boltons/ Freys and returning the Starks to power. Darth Rivers, did jojen and meera reed fail to get bran to the cave? Did Sam and Jon fail to save dilly and her baby, did Sam not get bran meera jojen and hodor to coldhands? Did Brienne fail to save the children and gendry fail to save brienne, and jaime save brienne? the answer to all of those is no. My only point is that i think your wrong when you said that whenever someone acts contrary to their own interests they fail. In fact id say the only people who failed in an action that was against their own self interest was Ned, Yoren, and perhaps rob. But i actually see more people succeeding then failing when their actions are selfless.

[Free Northman]

Whenever someone acts contrary to their own interests in ASOIAF, they fail (obviously). Keeping true to wovs and shit is not nearly realistic. Most people in Manderly's place would surely say stuff like that, and even sincerely believe it, but would only act on it if they had something to gain. The same is obviously true for Manderly.

If I were him, I'd use faithfulness as a cover, but my real objective would be securing Rickon (which invariably means disposing of other Starks who might threated my regency), and making him into a puppet.

OK. Well, then you fall into the Littlefinger/Roose Bolton category of person.

All I'm saying is that you are transposing your own view of life onto EVERYONE, thinking that this is the only way to portray reality.

I am in turn portrying MY way of life onto some people, seeing as clearly everyone isn't motivated purely by self interest.

When a fire fighter sacrifices his life to saves the life of an innocent child or when someone turns down an opportunity because it would create harm to someone else, then they are not acting out of self interest, but due to some code of honour or ethics that was ingrained into them as a child.

I am sorry that the code that was ingrained into you was "'do what is best for me, first'', but you are certainly not alone. Many people follow the same code.

But not everyone. And to be realistic, one has to portray the good people along with the evil (my interest comes before that of others) people.

Littlefinger and Bolton do not represent the entire spectrum of human motivations.

[Darth Rivers]

OK. Well, then you fall into the Littlefinger/Roose Bolton category of person.

If that is meant as an insult, it didn't get through.

All I'm saying is that you are transposing your own view of life onto EVERYONE, thinking that this is the only way to portray reality.

But if Manderly does it for the oath, don't deny regency is not a major boon, and he's certainly thought of it.

I am in turn portrying MY way of life onto some people, seeing as clearly everyone isn't motivated purely by self interest.

So you are trying to tell me that you're oh so honorable and perfect, and that you don't ever do what's best for you?

When a fire fighter sacrifices his life to saves the life of an innocent child or when someone turns down an opportunity because it would create harm to someone else, then they are not acting out of self interest, but due to some code of honour or ethics that was ingrained into them as a child.

That fighter is:

a) Religious, and thus believes sacrificing his life will score him a better afterlife.

b ) An idiot.

I am sorry that the code that was ingrained into you was "'do what is best for me, first'', but you are certainly not alone. Many people follow the same code.

I am pretty sure you do, too. You just try to deny it. People instinctively do what's best for them, or what they subconsciously believe is best for them. Helping your friend might seem selfless, until you realize that that can be used later to get favors from this friend, etc, etc.

But not everyone. And to be realistic, one has to portray the good people along with the evil (my interest comes before that of others) people.

Just because I don't hesitate to further my interest doesn't mean I am evil. My interests don't include eating babies, but they might include doing charitable work in order to get political leverage somewhere.

Littlefinger and Bolton do not represent the entire spectrum of human motivations.

They are more intelligent than Ned, though.

[Free Northman]

If that is meant as an insult, it didn't get through.

But if Manderly does it for the oath, don't deny regency is not a major boon, and he's certainly thought of it.

So you are trying to tell me that you're oh so honorable and perfect, and that you don't ever do what's best for you?

That fighter is:

a) Religious, and thus believes sacrificing his life will score him a better afterlife.

b ) An idiot.

I am pretty sure you do, too. You just try to deny it. People instinctively do what's best for them, or what they subconsciously believe is best for them. Helping your friend might seem selfless, until you realize that that can be used later to get favors from this friend, etc, etc.

Just because I don't hesitate to further my interest doesn't mean I am evil. My interests don't include eating babies, but they might include doing charitable work in order to get political leverage somewhere.

They are more intelligent than Ned, though.

Hehe.

Well, the "Darth" part of your name is certainly very fittingly chosen, as your philosophy of life seems to be very similar to that of the fictional Sith that inspired your title.

[Pecan]

I think Manderly is definitely following his own interests, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's planning to kill any remaining Starks other than Rickon so as to maintain the Regency, but it shouldn't be a stretch to say that putting together a plan to defeat the Boltons and Freys and return a Stark to Winterfell is counter to his own interests and that of his house. The alternative, after all, is a North that is under the rule of Roose Bolton with grasping Freys popping up at every opportunity looking for land and opportunities. THAT scenario is no doubt one that he is not looking forward to. He may have one eye on the Regency as a possible outcome, maybe even the ideal one, but to say that making himself Regent/Overlord of the North is his primary motivation is a stretch.

[Free Northman]

I think Manderly is definitely following his own interests, and I don't see anything wrong with that. I wouldn't go so far as to say that he's planning to kill any remaining Starks other than Rickon so as to maintain the Regency, but it shouldn't be a stretch to say that putting together a plan to defeat the Boltons and Freys and return a Stark to Winterfell is counter to his own interests and that of his house. The alternative, after all, is a North that is under the rule of Roose Bolton with grasping Freys popping up at every opportunity looking for land and opportunities. THAT scenario is no doubt one that he is not looking forward to. He may have one eye on the Regency as a possible outcome, maybe even the ideal one, but to say that making himself Regent/Overlord of the North is his primary motivation is a stretch.

I would agree with this.

Although his plan to oppose the Boltons and the Iron Throne remains quite a risk, given that the Lannister/Tyrell alliance still makes them the most powerful force in the Seven Kingdoms, so going up against their appointed Warden of the North isn't really a low risk strategy.

There must be idealism fueling his move in addition to potential self interest.

[Pecan]

Idealism, fear, anger, ambition, opportunism, greed, love, hate - I think it's fair to say that the entire spectrum of human motivations could be at play.

[The Lost Lord]

There must be idealism fueling his move in addition to potential self interest.

Yes I agree with you. Under the current scenario it is quite likely that "restored Stark rule" would in practice mean Manderly rule for at least a decade. But consider an alternative scenario. What if Robb and Cat somehow faked their own deaths and got away? The Boltons took over the North, the world thought Robb and Cat were dead, but they managed to get to White Harbor somehow. Do we think Manderly would help them and plot their return to Winterfell, even though this defiance of the Boltons would be risky and he would merely be restoring Robb and Cat to power rather than taking over himself? I certainly do think he would help Robb and Cat here. What do you think, Darth Rivers?

[AegonTheUnlikely]

Wyman Manderly is as shrewd a player of the game as there is. Despite allegedly being too fat to sit a horse, the man is a total boss.

The point I'm making is this: Wyman Manderly is the sort of man to have his cake, and eat it too. He outwardly falls into line with the new regime, and in so doing recovers his son and heir. Meanwhile, he plots to restore the Starks- but with a hefty does of plausible deniability. Its a win-win, for Manderly. Either he puts a Stark back in Winterfell, which as others have said likely ends up with White Harbor being the real political power in the North, at least for a time. Or, his scheme fails but his house is never implicated in any treachery.

Besides, win or lose, he's exacted a pretty heavy toll on the Freys thus far. I think he's winning that one.

Also, given how much of his strength remains apparently untapped- Manderly's plan C is probably to let Stannis and the Boltons bloody each other up, after which mop up whoever is left, and establish White Harbor as the new power.

[Vympel]

I don't see why restored Stark rule (which is a foregone conclusion, lets get real here) would mean "Manderly" rule - not without more information. For example, why see the situation in the North in total isolation? What about Sansa and the Vale? If Littlefinger's plan is substantially successful,Harrold Hardyng would be leading the Vale's armies into the North for his betrothed. I doubt Sansa would ever dream of taking Rickon's birthright - but being older than him, and with the Vale behind her, it may well be her, not Wyman Manderly, who sees Rickon through to maturity.

This is assuming of course that Jon Snow doesn't survive the series.

[Free Northman]

If the Starks are restored, I would fully expect the Manderlys to be richly rewarded for their loyalty.

This is a totally seperate issue to the motivation behind their loyalty to Rickon.

To me it is based on, in descending order:

1. Being true to their founding idealogy, which defines their House's history - the Vow to the Wolves.

2. The desire for vengeance against the Freys.

3. The hatred for Roose Bolton

4. The desired end state they are seeking to bring about, which would obviously be favourable to House Manderly in that they would be very close to their overlords once again.

All of those are legitimate motivations, and I hope all of them are achieved.

None of that presumes that Manderly wants to rule the North through Rickon as a puppet, which I frankly find to be contrary to what is being portrayed in the text.

The part where Rhaegar Frey refers to the Young Wolf as a monster deserving death, and how the entire Manderly court goes silent, and looks at him like a "cockroach in need of a hard heel", really conveys their pride and love for the Starks to me very strongly.

[The Lost Lord]

I don't see why restored Stark rule (which is a foregone conclusion, lets get real here) would mean "Manderly" rule - not without more information

I was talking about from Manderly's perspective, given the information he has. He thinks all Starks and Stark retainers are dead, except Rickon. So there would literally be no one except a boy to run Winterfell, meaning in practice Manderly would do it.

[Darth Rivers]

Hehe.

Well, the "Darth" part of your name is certainly very fittingly chosen, as your philosophy of life seems to be very similar to that of the fictional Sith that inspired your title.

The Darth part in my name has very little to do with the Star Wars movies, and their philosophy. Long story.

[bloodymime]

If the Starks are restored, I would fully expect the Manderlys to be richly rewarded for their loyalty.

This is a totally seperate issue to the motivation behind their loyalty to Rickon.

To me it is based on, in descending order:

1. Being true to their founding idealogy, which defines their House's history - the Vow to the Wolves.

2. The desire for vengeance against the Freys.

3. The hatred for Roose Bolton

4. The desired end state they are seeking to bring about, which would obviously be favourable to House Manderly in that they would be very close to their overlords once again.

All of those are legitimate motivations, and I hope all of them are achieved.

None of that presumes that Manderly wants to rule the North through Rickon as a puppet, which I frankly find to be contrary to what is being portrayed in the text.

The part where Rhaegar Frey refers to the Young Wolf as a monster deserving death, and how the entire Manderly court goes silent, and looks at him like a "cockroach in need of a hard heel", really conveys their pride and love for the Starks to me very strongly.

The Manderly family might grow even stronger out of this but considering the circumstances Lord Wyman Manderly voluntarily put himself into I don't think he's expecting any personal gain other than staying true to his vows.

I believe the man went to Winterfell knowing he would die. Look at the way he's deliberately antagonizing everyone there to the point of actually getting his throat slashed and tell me this is a man interested only in personal gain.

When things start going sideways is there anyone more out of luck than Lord Manderly, too fat to ride a horse is going to be too fat to walk. Exactly how far do you think he's going to get being lugged around in a litter? Yet none of it has stopped him.

Also when you think about it he already went past the point of no return when he released Davos. Yes he had his plan in place if the Freys discovered the truth while at White Harbor but once Davos left it's just become a matter of when, not if, the Manderly's betrayal of the crown becomes known. There's no backtracking and he knows it yet he doesn't hesitate in sending Davos off once his son is home.

[Shaggy Rickon]

Whenever someone acts contrary to their own interests in ASOIAF, they fail (obviously). Keeping true to wovs and shit is not nearly realistic. Most people in Manderly's place would surely say stuff like that, and even sincerely believe it, but would only act on it if they had something to gain. The same is obviously true for Manderly.

If I were him, I'd use faithfulness as a cover, but my real objective would be securing Rickon (which invariably means disposing of other Starks who might threated my regency), and making him into a puppet.

So you think rickon is going to be so placable as to be a puppet? Our rickon? The one with shaggydog? So rickon will not be ripping throats out in his quest for vengeance for his brother, his father, his sisters. Rickon hates the southron lords and lands. He believes them to be responsible for taking his family and his home away. Rickon once sitting in winterfell will rule with a pro north policy. He will marry a northerner and so will his children. He might marry a manderly even. Manderly feels he owes winterfell a debt. He is repaying that debt by bringing rickon back to winterfell. He wants revenge for his murdered son which is why he is killing freys. He will make sure foods gets his for betraying Robb and letting his son get killed.

[DirtyRobes]

If the Starks are restored, I would fully expect the Manderlys to be richly rewarded for their loyalty.

This is a totally seperate issue to the motivation behind their loyalty to Rickon.

To me it is based on, in descending order:

1. Being true to their founding idealogy, which defines their House's history - the Vow to the Wolves.

2. The desire for vengeance against the Freys.

3. The hatred for Roose Bolton

4. The desired end state they are seeking to bring about, which would obviously be favourable to House Manderly in that they would be very close to their overlords once again.

All of those are legitimate motivations, and I hope all of them are achieved.

None of that presumes that Manderly wants to rule the North through Rickon as a puppet, which I frankly find to be contrary to what is being portrayed in the text.

The part where Rhaegar Frey refers to the Young Wolf as a monster deserving death, and how the entire Manderly court goes silent, and looks at him like a "cockroach in need of a hard heel", really conveys their pride and love for the Starks to me very strongly.

Agree with it all.

Plus the restoration of House Stark by White Harbour is not likely to be forgotten. Having the North forever indebted to your house might be a pretty nice bonus. But I think Manderly possibly see's Winterfell as his last stand, He's lucky that Frey's are stupid and not familiar enough with northern folk tales.

I think its also important that the Manderly's(were?) are considered the most southern of the northern houses, the Merman will die the truest Northman.

As the Starks once marched all the way to White Harbour to restore it, they will respond in kind... The North Remembers.

[Darth Rivers]

So you think rickon is going to be so placable as to be a puppet?

If real life is anything to go by, you cannot use one's character at the age of 4 to predict how they will behave in the future.

[AegonTheUnlikely]

For what it's worth, I think Manderly could have gone to Winterfell fully expecting to die, and still be acting out of self interest.

Westerosi Lords have a different conception of self interest, I think. As well as the typical criteria (e.g.: food, money, personal gain), there are other less tangible things. One could act in order to secure a post-death legacy, which might be considered self interested. Further, the broader interests of the House can be folded into the self interest of the individual actor, at least in the case of the head of the family.

Thus, Manderly might fully expect to die, and is still acting out of his own self interest. If he dies antagonizing the Boltons, he'll be memorialized for it, especially if the Starks are restored. If he lives, he presumes that he'll have the lion's share of the power while Rickon is coming of age. In either case, House Manderly comes out ahead.

Think of it this way: Wyman Manderly is too fat to go on a final winter hunt, like the mountain clans further north still do. The Siege of Winterfell is his final hunt, and he undertook it in the same frame of mind, I think.

[DirtyRobes]

For what it's worth, I think Manderly could have gone to Winterfell fully expecting to die, and still be acting out of self interest.

Westerosi Lords have a different conception of self interest, I think. As well as the typical criteria (e.g.: food, money, personal gain), there are other less tangible things. One could act in order to secure a post-death legacy, which might be considered self interested. Further, the broader interests of the House can be folded into the self interest of the individual actor, at least in the case of the head of the family.

Thus, Manderly might fully expect to die, and is still acting out of his own self interest. If he dies antagonizing the Boltons, he'll be memorialized for it, especially if the Starks are restored. If he lives, he presumes that he'll have the lion's share of the power while Rickon is coming of age. In either case, House Manderly comes out ahead.

Think of it this way: Wyman Manderly is too fat to go on a final winter hunt, like the mountain clans further north still do. The Siege of Winterfell is his final hunt, and he undertook it in the same frame of mind, I think.

I agree with you, but I would not call it self interest. If House Manderly were to enter into open hostilities with the Boltons then Wyman is Absolutely risking everything, including his house. IF his plans were to fail at the VERY least he would be killed and more likely White Harbour would be taken from House Manderly as punishment. I agree with your final hunt assessment, but it is definitely not a win/win for Manderly.

I don't think Manderly intends to use Rickon as a puppet or to keep the lion's share while he's coming of age. He wants his liege lord back as a symbol to remove these non-northerners.

I think it's also important that Houses Stark and Manderly were much closer than today, I imagine he may have a marriage pact in mind too.

[Shaggy Rickon]

If real life is anything to go by, you cannot use one's character at the age of 4 to predict how they will behave in the future.

Any other time I would agree with you but not in this case. Rickon's future behavior will be shaped by his experiences at four. He is angry and bitter. He doesn't have anyone taming him so to speak. He is not getting educated. He doesn't have a maester. There is also to consider his warging ability. We know that if you don't control your warg it controls you. He doesn't have anyone teaching him to control his wolf. The more time passes without rickon getting adult supervision the more his wildness will become nature. I don't think rickon will ever be tamed. And that is an interesting notion.