Manderly's Navy and Heavy Horse

[IRON BANK]

I think if there is a stark in winterfell the snows in the north will start to calm down. However Manderly would be smart to save his power. gather his forces. get control of the riverlands. and wait for the south to implode on itself.

[pavlosbal]

White Harbor is one of the major cities of Westeros. Granted it is the smallest of the cities but it should still house a very sizable population. King's Landing and Oldtown are the largest (500,000), followed by Lannisport (probably 300,000 plus), Gulltown (200,000+), and then White Harbor (likely 150,000 +). 10% of the population would net 15,000. 20% would net 30,000 men. So its easy to see why there is speculation that Manderly can still field a sizable host.

Additionally, Manderly has about 50-55 war galleys ready to go. Lets be conservative and say 50 men per ship. Thats another 2750 men. Lastly the men directly under Stark command seemed to be few, but logically they have the entire North at their disposal.

As you said this is just speculation. If white Harbor can field 30000 men then King's Landing which has four times that many people should have close to a 100000 soldiers.

Starks probably control the area around the Kingsroad from Moat Cailin to Last Hearth. They also probably control the entire west bank of the white knife (while the Maderlys only control the southeast part of it) and all the areas west up to the Wolfswood, Torrhen's Square and Barrowtown an area twice as big as the area controlled by the Manderlys( I think I saw this in a map on a website once) . All these areas should be very fertile since they are close to a major river and have a similar climate to the areas controlled by White Harbor. But there is also the Kingsroad which is the major trade route in the North. Therefore there should me many farms, small villages and settlements in this area many more than those in Manderly territories since it is a logical conclusion than many people live in these areas so they can easily sell their products in other parts of the North using the Kingsroad. And while I don't deny that White Harbor has a big population this is a medieval society and the majority of people should still inhabit rural areas and house Stark controls most of them so in my opinion Starks have a bigger population in their lands than Wyman Manderly as many as three times as many so they can assemble 15000 men and Manderly only 8000.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

As you said this is just speculation. If white Harbor can field 30000 men then King's Landing which has four times that many people should have close to a 100000 soldiers.

Starks probably control the area around the Kingsroad from Moat Cailin to Last Hearth. They also probably control the entire west bank of the white knife (while the Maderlys only control the southeast part of it) and all the areas west up to the Wolfswood, Torrhen's Square and Barrowtown an area twice as big as the area controlled by the Manderlys( I think I saw this in a map on a website once) . All these areas should be very fertile since they are close to a major river and have a similar climate to the areas controlled by White Harbor. But there is also the Kingsroad which is the major trade route in the North. Therefore there should me many farms, small villages and settlements in this area many more than those in Manderly territories since it is a logical conclusion than many people live in these areas so they can easily sell their products in other parts of the North using the Kingsroad. And while I don't deny that White Harbor has a big population this is a medieval society and the majority of people should still inhabit rural areas and house Stark controls most of them so in my opinion Starks have a bigger population in their lands than Wyman Manderly as many as three times as many so they can assemble 15000 men and Manderly only 8000.

I do agree that there should be more men under the direct control of House Stark, however GRRM has not presented it that way. If it were so, then Roose Bolton would not have dared to cross Robb. But the most we see are a few hundred Stark guardsman at Winterfell and King's Landing. From a technical standpoint your argument makes perfect sense to me, but the books have shown something very different. As far as the book is concerned, it is not supposed to matter, as the entire North has been ruled by the Starks since the Dawn of Days. All of the Northern troops should be under Stark command technically.

The cities are more of a sure thing. We know large amounts of people gravitate to major cities. Additionally, as you say, proximity to the sea and the White Knife should yield sizable populations. The way the books portray the North, other areas are sparsely populated. So it makes sense that Manderly controls more population.

[pavlosbal]

I do agree that there should be more men under the direct control of House Stark, GRRM has not presented it that way. If if were so, than Roose Bolton would not have dared to cross Robb. But the most we see are a few hundred Stark guardsman at Winterfell and King's Landing. From a technical standpoint your argument makes perfect sense to me, but the books have shown something very different. As far as the book is concerned, it is not supposed to matter, as the entire North has been ruled by the Starks since the Dawn of Days. All of the Northern troops should be under Stark command technically.

The cities are more of a sure thing. We know large amounts of people gravitate to major cities. Additionally, as you say, proximity to the sea and the White Knife should yield sizable populations. The way the books portray the North, other areas are sparsely populated. So it makes sense that Manderly controls more population.

It is natural that that the books don't give us a very detailed analysis of the distribution of people throughout the North they are after all fantasy books and not history books.

However I do believe there is a description given by Tyrion in the first book during the battle of the Whispering Wood that proves that the majority of fighting men in the north is under the control of Winterfell.

Quote

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of sheilds and pikes. Gods be damned, look at them all, tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the hornwoods, the karstark sunburst, lord cerwyns battle axe, and the mailed fist of the glovers...and the twin towers of frey, blue on grey. So much for his fathers certainty lord walder would not bestir himself. The white of house stark was seen everywhere, the grey direwolves seeming to leap and run as the banners swirled and streamed from the high staffs.

And then when he describes the forces of Tywin Lannister

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standerd bearer shook it out, a burning tree, arange and smoke. Behind him flew ser flements purple unicorn the brindled boar of crakehall the bantam rooster of swyft, and more. His lord father took place on the hill where he had slept. Around him the resrve assembled, a huge force half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord tywin almost always chose to command the reserve...

Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

The bannermen of Tywin and Robb have their own battle standards which are of course different that the standards of their liege lord. The standard of a king or a powerful lord would always be carried in battle by his own men and not by the men of his vassals. This was the case even in real battles vassals lords and kings had different banners and the soldiers of vassal lords would not carry the vassals or the king. And from what Tyrion says the banner of House Stark is seen everywhere so most men seem to be under that banner and not under any of the other banners seen in the Northern host therefore they should be soldiers directly under Stark control.And also in Tywin's army we see that all his lords have their own banners which are described by Tyrion but his father's is not; it probably remains in the reserve

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

It is natural that that the books don't give us a very detailed analysis of the distribution of people throughout the North they are after all fantasy books and not history books.

However I do believe there is a description given by Tyrion in the first book during the battle of the Whispering Wood that proves that the majority of fighting men in the north is under the control of Winterfell.

Quote

He had no time to think about it. The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of sheilds and pikes. Gods be damned, look at them all, tyrion thought, though he knew his father had more men on the field. Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the hornwoods, the karstark sunburst, lord cerwyns battle axe, and the mailed fist of the glovers...and the twin towers of frey, blue on grey. So much for his fathers certainty lord walder would not bestir himself. The white of house stark was seen everywhere, the grey direwolves seeming to leap and run as the banners swirled and streamed from the high staffs.

And then when he describes the forces of Tywin Lannister

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command. Tyrion saw his banner unfurl as his standerd bearer shook it out, a burning tree, arange and smoke. Behind him flew ser flements purple unicorn the brindled boar of crakehall the bantam rooster of swyft, and more. His lord father took place on the hill where he had slept. Around him the resrve assembled, a huge force half mounted and half foot, five thousand strong. Lord tywin almost always chose to command the reserve...

Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

The bannermen of Tywin and Robb have their own battle standards which are of course different that the standards of their liege lord. The standard of a king or a powerful lord would always be carried in battle by his own men and not by the men of his vassals. This was the case even in real battles vassals lords and kings had different banners and the soldiers of vassal lords would not carry the vassals or the king. And from what Tyrion says the banner of House Stark is seen everywhere so most men seem to be under that banner and not under any of the other banners seen in the Northern host therefore they should be soldiers directly under Stark control.And also in Tywin's army we see that all his lords have their own banners which are described by Tyrion but his father's is not; it probably remains in the reserve

Yes, we all now its a fantasy book. However, it is a medieval fantasy book, based upon historical elements. The warfare, customs, culture, and storyline (see the war of the roses) are all created with an eye toward history. GRRM has given us great detail in some areas and less in others. The lack of overall detail in the North suggest a timing issue. He has a greater story to complete and not all minor points will be touched upon with accuracy and detail.

I know this part well, but it does not necessarily explain the discrepancy. The lords may carry their own standards, but this does not preclude them or the vassals under their control from carrying the overlords standard. For instance, House Marbrand would still consider themselves to be lion men (bannerman) and their troops could carry lion banners for a number of reasons (identification in battle).

Also lets look at things from a numbers standpoint:

1. Robb took 20k men south

2. Karstark = 2300; Manderly = 1500 men; Bolton = 3000 (estimate ADWD)

3. Assume Umbers can 2000+; That will give you about 9,000 men from the four most powerful bannerman.

4. That leaves 11,000 men divided among 39 other houses.

5. The Ryswell's control a huge area. House Dustin controls the other established town in the North.

It just does not seem that much of the Northern host did its fealty directly to Winterfell.

[Montey14]

Manderly is a Stark bannerman and the Starks are his liege lords.....so therefore if there is a battle and the Starks call the banners....Manderly's 30,000 men are the Starks to command...Once you swear fealty to your liege lord your swords are his to command....so yes technically all of Manderly's men are Stark men.....

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Manderly is a Stark bannerman and the Starks are his liege lords.....so therefore if there is a battle and the Starks call the banners....Manderly's 30,000 men are the Starks to command...Once you swear fealty to your liege lord your swords are his to command....so yes technically all of Manderly's men are Stark men.....

Agreed, made this point a bit earlier.

[pavlosbal]

Yes, we all now its a fantasy book. However, it is a medieval fantasy book, based upon historical elements. The warfare, customs, culture, and storyline (see the war of the roses) are all created with an eye toward history. GRRM has given us great detail in some areas and less in others. The lack of overall detail in the North suggest a timing issue. He has a greater story to complete and not all minor points will be touched upon with accuracy and detail.

I know this part well, but it does not necessarily explain the discrepancy. The lords may carry their own standards, but this does not preclude them or the vassals under their control from carrying the overlords standard. For instance, House Marbrand would still consider themselves to be lion men (bannerman) and their troops could carry lion banners for a number of reasons (identification in battle).

Also lets look at things from a numbers standpoint:

1. Robb took 20k men south

2. Karstark = 2300; Manderly = 1500 men; Bolton = 3000 (estimate ADWD)

3. Assume Umbers can 2000+; That will give you about 9,000 men from the four most powerful bannerman.

4. That leaves 11,000 men divided among 39 other houses.

5. The Ryswell's control a huge area. House Dustin controls the other established town in the North.

It just does not seem that much of the Northern host did its fealty directly to Winterfell.

Well, house Marband or any other noble house, would not be allowed to carry it's liege lord's banner in combat nor in any other occasion.It would be considered an offense, a crime. In fact I remember that Henry VIII had one of his greatest lords, Henry Howard the Earl of Surrey, executed and one of the accusations against him was the use of the king's banner and sigil. So If another house in Westeros used the banner and sigil of their overlord It would probably be a very serious offense.

Also swearing fealty to a liege lord means your sworn swords are his to command but only in name. There are many examples in real history, and even a few in the books of GRRM, where vassals have rebelled against their lord. I guess their sworn swords fought for them and not for their overlord. So House Stark must control directly most of the lands of the North because it wants to remain safe and protect itself from possible uprisings. If the Starks had given away most of the lands of the North, and therefore most of the fighting men in the North, in their bannermen then eventually they would rise up against them. And no matter how good and honorable rulers the Starks are, their bannermen would rise up against them if it meant that they would become Wardens of the North themselves therefore richer and more powerful. And if we say, for example, that the Manderlys with their 20000-25000 men rise up against the Starks with their 1000-2000 men, what do you think that the other noble houses will do? Face the Manderlys and risk defeat or join them and ensure they survive? They may be loyal but when the chips are down they will put their well being first and let the Starks be destroyed.

As for the War of the Roses reference here is a list of the combatants assembled by the king to fight in 1475 in France (an invasion that never took place).

The army assembled had 1278 men at arms and 10173 archers and footmen.

The king and his household had 815 men at arms and 6801 archers and footmen. All the lords fighting for the king had 463 men at arms and 3372 archers and footmen. So the king had nearly twice the men that all his vassals had.

And then there's France during the period of the Hundred Years War, which is also very similar to the seven kingdoms of Westeros. It was a very centralised kingdom where most of the lands were controlled directly by the king, and most of the fighting men came from the crownlands and were therefore the king's army and not an army assembled by a duke or a count in the king's name.Most of the men actually were led by captains of the king stationed in his crown lands. Only they could carry the king's Fleur-de-lis in battle, or in ceremonies. An example is the battle of Agincourt there where out of approximately 25000 men 14000 where the king's men at arms and the rest where mercenaries and feudal levies. So the historical timelines that were GRRM's inspiration for the society he created, had centralized armies -not professional which is something very different- but armies supplied and equipped mostly by the kings and their households.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I honestly don't think that the Manderlys have so many men.First of all they are just a vassal house(maybe the most powerful) and not the rulers of the north like the Starks. If the north had approximately 50000 men and Wyman Manderly had about half of them what would stop him or from overthrowing the starks? Who would dare stop him? I think it is most likely that he has 8000-9000 men at best. The Starks control directly most areas in the north,like i imagine Lannisters Tyrells Baratheons and other paramount lords do, so the majority of the forces that fight for these great houses are directly controlled by them. The reason for that wpould be no other than fear. So i think that house Stark has the biggest army maybe twice as big as Manderly forces so i would say thhe strak men are as many as 15000. But White Harbor definitely has more men than the Dreadfort or Karhold

Manderley as the most powerful vassal makes sense for the Starks. These new immigrants with a foreign religion could never get other Houses on their side during a rebellion. Their way to power is tied to supporting the Starks. The Boltons on the other hand could lead an alliance against the Starks.

The Starks got the most powerful vassal secured that way.

White Harbor is one of the major cities of Westeros. Granted it is the smallest of the cities but it should still house a very sizable population. King's Landing and Oldtown are the largest (500,000), followed by Lannisport (probably 300,000 plus), Gulltown (200,000+), and then White Harbor (likely 150,000 +). 10% of the population would net 15,000. 20% would net 30,000 men. So its easy to see why there is speculation that Manderly can still field a sizable host.

Additionally, Manderly has about 50-55 war galleys ready to go. Lets be conservative and say 50 men per ship. Thats another 2750 men. Lastly the men directly under Stark command seemed to be few, but logically they have the entire North at their disposal.

Cities are negligible as a source of recruitment either way. It's the land that matters.

Disagree on the galleys though. There is no galley with less than 80 oars, the standard is 100. Unless these oars move themselves... :cool4:

I do agree that there should be more men under the direct control of House Stark, however GRRM has not presented it that way. If it were so, then Roose Bolton would not have dared to cross Robb. But the most we see are a few hundred Stark guardsman at Winterfell and King's Landing. From a technical standpoint your argument makes perfect sense to me, but the books have shown something very different. As far as the book is concerned, it is not supposed to matter, as the entire North has been ruled by the Starks since the Dawn of Days. All of the Northern troops should be under Stark command technically.

The cities are more of a sure thing. We know large amounts of people gravitate to major cities. Additionally, as you say, proximity to the sea and the White Knife should yield sizable populations. The way the books portray the North, other areas are sparsely populated. So it makes sense that Manderly controls more population.

Neither Tallhart nor Hornwood are Lords in their own right. They are powerful houses directly under control of the Starks.

[Manderlay]

Here is my estimate, Lord Manderly has about 40-60 war ships, he would keep a force of 2000 to protect WH, the rest of his forces will be 1000-1500 heavy horse (with 200-300 knights) 4000 - 5000 men on foot, he has already lost his forces that went south, these numbers can rise since refugees have come to WH with Hornwood men, Glover is in WH as well, and there might other men from different houses, who came to WH when the Boltons gained power. Plus all the other houses of the North can muster some men as well, the Mountain clans number around 5000, so the North can still have a force of around 15k, with 3000 heavy horse and around 60 war ships.

[KingHodorTargaryen]

I think Manderly's big fleet is for Jon to send envoys and resupplying of Moat Cailin while the heavy horse is for defending it. The rest of the North will be too busy with Others to do much else, plus White Harbor is close enough to Moat Cailin while many other big houses (Karstarks, Umbers, Glovers) are not. I don't see them going down south to fight for Stannis, and warships are no use against anything except resupplying or taking cities, which is pointless to them.

[Free Northman]

The ships are for supplying the North with food in Winter, from Braavos. In Winter the storms are more intense, but less frequent than in Autumn. Hence, in the 2 to 4 week period inbetween storms the food-run to Braavos and back can be undertaken from White Harbor. From there food can be distributed to other key holdfasts in the North.

All financed by Jon's loan agreement with the Iron Bank. This would not have been necessary if not for the War, which has drained a lot of the granaries that would otherwise have been stocked up for Winter.

[Nyrhex]

The ships are for supplying the North with food in Winter, from Braavos. In Winter the storms are more intense, but less frequent than in Autumn. Hence, in the 2 to 4 week period inbetween storms the food-run to Braavos and back can be undertaken from White Harbor. From there food can be distributed to other key holdfasts in the North.

All financed by Jon's loan agreement with the Iron Bank. This would not have been necessary if not for the War, which has drained a lot of the granaries that would otherwise have been stocked up for Winter.

Isn't this a tad too optimistic? Jon took a loan to feed a few hundred Black Brothers and a couple thousend Wildlings, not the entire North. The only person to have that much credit with the Iron Bank is Stannis at the moment.

The ships are war galleys, not merchant cogs. They are meant for naval combat, and hopefully we will see some.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Isn't this a tad too optimistic? Jon took a loan to feed a few hundred Black Brothers and a couple thousend Wildlings, not the entire North. The only person to have that much credit with the Iron Bank is Stannis at the moment.

The ships are war galleys, not merchant cogs. They are meant for naval combat, and hopefully we will see some.

I have to agree. Manderly is building this fleet for warfare, he all but said so to Davos. Theses ships will most likely to be used to either defend the most important city in the North, or to assault King's Landing at some point.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Cities are negligible as a source of recruitment either way. It's the land that matters.

Disagree on the galleys though. There is no galley with less than 80 oars, the standard is 100. Unless these oars move themselves... :cool4:

Neither Tallhart nor Hornwood are Lords in their own right. They are powerful houses directly under control of the Starks.

1. Cities are negligible for recruitment? A city with a population of 100k plus is negligible? A city with that many full-time inhabitants is sure to have plenty of sailors and warriors.

2. The Hornwoods were very much lords in their own right. Hence the title "Lord of the Hornwood." Although the Tallharts are a masterly house, they still have banners of their own and men under their direct control.

3. Would all of those men be fighting men, or will some be dedicated to rowing and steering? I made my conservative estimate based upon the number of fighting men. It could easily be more.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Here is my estimate, Lord Manderly has about 40-60 war ships, he would keep a force of 2000 to protect WH, the rest of his forces will be 1000-1500 heavy horse (with 200-300 knights) 4000 - 5000 men on foot, he has already lost his forces that went south, these numbers can rise since refugees have come to WH with Hornwood men, Glover is in WH as well, and there might other men from different houses, who came to WH when the Boltons gained power. Plus all the other houses of the North can muster some men as well, the Mountain clans number around 5000, so the North can still have a force of around 15k, with 3000 heavy horse and around 60 war ships.

Interesting estimates. Don't forget Skagos. We still don't know what they can muster.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The ships are for supplying the North with food in Winter, from Braavos. In Winter the storms are more intense, but less frequent than in Autumn. Hence, in the 2 to 4 week period inbetween storms the food-run to Braavos and back can be undertaken from White Harbor. From there food can be distributed to other key holdfasts in the North.

All financed by Jon's loan agreement with the Iron Bank. This would not have been necessary if not for the War, which has drained a lot of the granaries that would otherwise have been stocked up for Winter.

Wargalleys are unsuitable for transporting large quantities. They are sleek, lacking the space for anything beyond feeding the crew.

No, food transports will be done by the old merchant ships White Harbour had already and the Braavosi ones. The wargalleys could engage wightified whales or the like though. Or pay a visit to Dragonstone or Kings Landing.

1. Cities are negligible for recruitment? A city with a population of 100k plus is negligible? A city with that many full-time inhabitants is sure to have plenty of sailors and warriors.

2. The Hornwoods were very much lords in their own right. Hence the title "Lord of the Hornwood." Although the Tallharts are a masterly house, they still have banners of their own and men under their direct control.

3. Would all of those men be fighting men, or will some be dedicated to rowing and steering? I made my conservative estimate based upon the number of fighting men. It could easily be more.

1. With a rate of urbanization of 1% or the like? Yes. You could pull ~2,000 men out of a city of 100,000. That's more than out of a village population the same size (~1,000), but negligible in relation to the entirety of population.

2. Sorry, I meant the Glovers, not the Hornwoods. And yes, the Tallharts and Glovers have men under their direct control, but so does any sergeant.

3. A large quantity will be oarsmen and sailors, but as free men they will at least take up a shortsword in boarding action. Furthermore, the battle of Lepanto (similar technology level) featured 3 soldiers per 4 sailors/oarsmen.

By the way, Lepanton featured 40,000 sailors/oarsmen and 28,000 sea soldiers on 206 galleys, which would put Manderley at 10,000 and 7,000 for his 50 wargalleys. But Manderley's wargalleys are probably somewhat smaller, these numbers per ship fit the Royal Fleet better.

[pavlosbal]

1. Cities are negligible for recruitment? A city with a population of 100k plus is negligible? A city with that many full-time inhabitants is sure to have plenty of sailors and warriors.

2. The Hornwoods were very much lords in their own right. Hence the title "Lord of the Hornwood." Although the Tallharts are a masterly house, they still have banners of their own and men under their direct control.

3. Would all of those men be fighting men, or will some be dedicated to rowing and steering? I made my conservative estimate based upon the number of fighting men. It could easily be more.

1. Cities are negligible for recruitment in comparison to rural areas. The majority of fighting men would come from rural areas because the people there had generally a better income, than the average person in a city, and therefore better equipment when called to war. However those few men that came from cities were merchants and artisans and had enough money to buy equipment that could be better than that of a farmer.

2. Yes Hornwoods were lords in their own right as were Tallharts and Glovers. Houses that are under direct Stark control are Cassel, Mollen, Poole, Lake, Burley, Ironsmith, and probably Moss and Waterman. They also control directly most in not all of the mountain clans.These houses do not have a known seat of their own. I believe that they are reatiners and household members of Winterfell and when needed ride out in Stark lands and gather men to fight. This number of retainers would also explain how the Starks can have a numerical superiority in comparison to their bannermen.

We have 8 houses of retainers each one with a total 1000 soldiers on retinue(money and equipment give by the Starks) =8000 soldiers

House Stark has about two maybe three times the men that his retainers have living close or inside winterfell= 2500 soldiers

Plus the fighters of the mountain clans 40 clans as Jon says to stannis but small in population but very warlike so 100 men on average =4000 soldiers

Total= 14500 soldiers.

I'm not sure about the Cerwyns though. They are said to be a noble house so I doubt that they are retainers and members of Stark household but the fact that they are living half a day's ride from Winterfell may mean that they are just very powerful retainers.

3. The number of oars in a boat means the number of men oaring. In a 100 oar galley 100 men are oaring and 50 men are fighters But the sailors are not fighters they just oar and the fighters are not fightng only on board. They are land troops that are just on board at the moment.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1. Cities are negligible for recruitment in comparison to rural areas. The majority of fighting men would come from rural areas because the people there had generally a better income, than the average person in a city, and therefore better equipment when called to war. However those few men that came from cities were merchants and artisans and had enough money to buy equipment that could be better than that of a farmer.

2. Yes Hornwoods were lords in their own right as were Tallharts and Glovers. Houses that are under direct Stark control are Cassel, Mollen, Poole, Lake, Burley, Ironsmith, and probably Moss and Waterman. They also control directly most in not all of the mountain clans.These houses do not have a known seat of their own. I believe that they are reatiners and household members of Winterfell and when needed ride out in Stark lands and gather men to fight. This number of retainers would also explain how the Starks can have a numerical superiority in comparison to their bannermen.

We have 8 houses of retainers each one with a total 1000 soldiers on retinue(money and equipment give by the Starks) =8000 soldiers

House Stark has about two maybe three times the men that his retainers have living close or inside winterfell= 2500 soldiers

Plus the fighters of the mountain clans 40 clans as Jon says to stannis but small in population but very warlike so 100 men on average =4000 soldiers

Total= 14500 soldiers.

I'm not sure about the Cerwyns though. They are said to be a noble house so I doubt that they are retainers and members of Stark household but the fact that they are living half a day's ride from Winterfell may mean that they are just very powerful retainers.

3. The number of oars in a boat means the number of men oaring. In a 100 oar galley 100 men are oaring and 50 men are fighters But the sailors are not fighters they just oar and the fighters are not fightng only on board. They are land troops that are just on board at the moment.

1. Exactly. White Harbour (which by the way has only 50,000 inhabitants) does barely matter in comparison to the rural areas Lord Manderley controls as well. White Harbour could field 2-5% of it's population, anything more is wishful thinking. 2-5% of 50,000 is 1,000-2,500 men. Out of a five-digits number.

2. But we are never shown these Stark retainers. Not once in the entire campaign of the Young Wolf are such a quantity of men sworn directly to Winterfell according to your definition shown. Therefore I presume that the independently shown Tallharts and Glovers should be counted as Stark men, which would make the numbers fit.

3. More like 100 oarsmen, 30 sailors and 100 fighters. Or something above that to account for spares. Either way, Manderley has to have these troops available, or he wouldn't build the ships.

[pavlosbal]

1. Exactly. White Harbour (which by the way has only 50,000 inhabitants) does barely matter in comparison to the rural areas Lord Manderley controls as well. White Harbour could field 2-5% of it's population, anything more is wishful thinking. 2-5% of 50,000 is 1,000-2,500 men. Out of a five-digits number.

2. But we are never shown these Stark retainers. Not once in the entire campaign of the Young Wolf are such a quantity of men sworn directly to Winterfell according to your definition shown. Therefore I presume that the independently shown Tallharts and Glovers should be counted as Stark men, which would make the numbers fit.

3. More like 100 oarsmen, 30 sailors and 100 fighters. Or something above that to account for spares. Either way, Manderley has to have these troops available, or he wouldn't build the ships.

1.Yes if Manderly has 2500 men from White Harbor then he should have about 7000 from the rest of his areas thats 9000 men.

2. But we are shown members of houses Cassel, Poole, Mollen, and soldiers of house Burley plus we are also told of the mountain clans. All these men were fighting for the Starks without having lands or a castle of their own given to them(as far as we know). Rodrik Cassel for example led 600 men for house Stark. Where did he find these men? He gathered them as was his responsibility as a retainer. So I Believe there were others like him of simialr recruting capabilities. I believe that members of these other retainers are not seen simply because they are not of such a high social standing in comparison to great lords to be given positions in a war council or to be mentioned independently. But they are there and their men certainly are there fighting as well. Or they could be mentioned later in the books or the areas they lived were relatively remote and would take them time to come and join Robb Stark with a large force. There are also retainers of House Glover for example like houses Forrester Woods Branch and Bole but we do not see any of them. Does that mean that they didn't go to war with them just because we don't see them?

3. I think that galleys and cogs used to have twice as many oarsmen so that's why I said 50 fighters and 100 oarsmen. And what I meant is that these fighters are part of the land forces and not a sort of special unit that fought only on the seas. I also believe that the galleys were built not only for use by Manderly men. If Robb asked them to be used men from other houses would also use them. But now with all these refugees coming into his lands Manderly will have more men to use on these galleys and generally on his army.