A woman makes a man: Robert and Cersei

[deleted01]

wait what?

:dunno:

:rofl: Oh dear! I never express myself well enough. What I mean is that people who generally defend Cersei argue with anyone who do not fully defend her, and may appear to be defending Robert, even if it's not their intention. I have seen some pretty nasty arguments, and been on the receiving end of some beautiful abuse :rolleyes:

[FuzzyJAM]

I believe that Robert and Cersei share equal blame in the failure of their relationship. If it appears that I am supporting or defending Cersei here it is only because I feel that she is receiving a disproportionate amount of the blame on this particular thread. If it appears that I am blaming Robert, it is only because I feel that he is receiving a disproportionate amount of sympathy on this particular thread.

To add to this, you don't have to be "siding" with a character to note that they've been mistreated. Horrible people can be treated horribly.

The basic premise of the topic, that it is somehow a wife's duty to make their husband a good person, is just insane. Where is the husband's duty to make the wife a good person? Surely he's to blame for her not supporting him enough, right? But then, she's to blame for him not supporting her enough to enable her to support him. Ah, but he's to blame for her not supporting him enough for him to support her supporting him!

I mean, I realise "insane" seems a little harsh, but I can't think of any other way to describe it.

[deleted01]

To add to this, you don't have to be "siding" with a character to note that they've been mistreated. Horrible people can be treated horribly.

The basic premise of the topic, that it is somehow a wife's duty to make their husband a good person, is just insane. Where is the husband's duty to make the wife a good person? Surely he's to blame for her not supporting him enough, right? But then, she's to blame for him not supporting her enough to enable her to support him. Ah, but he's to blame for her not supporting him enough for him to support her supporting him!

I mean, I realise "insane" seems a little harsh, but I can't think of any other way to describe it.

I think the basic premise is that Cersei did nothing to try to make her marriage work, compared to Dany, for example. While Dany might not be a very good example and representative of feminism, neither is Cersei. Robert, also, did not do his best to make his marriage work, he simply sought comfort in the bottom of a bottle and the 'love' of whores. If I were stuck in a marriage that I had no choice but to make work, I would never have gone down the route Cersei chose. I'm not sure I would have behaved exactly as Dany did, but I would have at least accepted that I had to make an effort if I wanted anything to change.

Cersei, I think, seems to expect everything to come to her, without working at it. How dare Robert be in love with another woman! For that, I'll cuckold him and make this marriage even worse than it could have been! What do some people find so offensive about using your charms on your husband (or wife) to make your marriage work, and even possibly bring love?

[FuzzyJAM]

I think the basic premise is that Cersei did nothing to try to make her marriage work, compared to Dany, for example. While Dany might not be a very good example and representative of feminism, neither is Cersei. Robert, also, did not do his best to make his marriage work, he simply sought comfort in the bottom of a bottle and the 'love' of whores. If I were stuck in a marriage that I had no choice but to make work, I would never have gone down the route Cersei chose. I'm not sure I would have behaved exactly as Dany did, but I would have at least accepted that I had to make an effort if I wanted anything to change.

Cersei, I think, seems to expect everything to come to her, without working at it. How dare Robert be in love with another woman! For that, I'll cuckold him and make this marriage even worse than it could have been! What do some people find so offensive about using your charms on your husband (or wife) to make your marriage work, and even possibly bring love?

Why are you talking about Dany? Is Cersei married to Dany?

No, she's married to Robert. He did nothing to make the marriage work, why is he not getting treated in exactly the same way? If you want to say that both were terrible and didn't put in any of the effort needed to make a relationship sort of work. . .well, yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that; you're arguing against a position that doesn't exist.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Why are you talking about Dany? Is Cersei married to Dany?

No, she's married to Robert. He did nothing to make the marriage work, why is he not getting treated in exactly the same way? If you want to say that both were terrible and didn't put in any of the effort needed to make a relationship sort of work. . .well, yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that; you're arguing against a position that doesn't exist.

She's comparing Robert and Cersei to Drogo and Dany. Not rocket science. Dany was in a relationship that she was unhappy with. Drogo ignored her, hurt her during sex, and generally treated her like he would any other woman. She did something about it, changed Drogo into a loving (sort of) man, and the relationship began to work.

[deleted01]

Why are you talking about Dany? Is Cersei married to Dany?

No, she's married to Robert. He did nothing to make the marriage work, why is he not getting treated in exactly the same way? If you want to say that both were terrible and didn't put in any of the effort needed to make a relationship sort of work. . .well, yeah, I don't think anyone would disagree with that; you're arguing against a position that doesn't exist.

I was very clearly comparing them to each other. He is getting treated in the same way by the vast majority, but considering he was murdered in the first book, I think there's more to say on Cersei, don't you?

Just a general note: there's no need for a shitty attitude. Just because someone might differ in opinion from you, doesn't make them unworthy of respect and a decent reply. Threads like this always go this way - why can no one ever dislike or say bad things about Cersei? <_<

[FuzzyJAM]

She's comparing Robert and Cersei to Drogo and Dany. Not rocket science. Dany was in a relationship that she was unhappy with. Drogo ignored her, hurt her during sex, and generally treated her like he would any other woman. She did something about it, changed Drogo into a loving (sort of) man, and the relationship began to work.

Yeah, Cersei could have made the best of a bad situation, but you know what?

So could Robert.

[deleted01]

Yeah, Cersei could have made the best of a bad situation, but you know what?

So could Robert.

You're arguing a point that nobody had disagreed with, least of all me. Stop trying to create an argument when there isn't one.

[Ser Hippie]

Comparing relationships like that doesn't work. Robert has some similarities to Drogo but Drogo didn't marry Dany after losing someone he viewed as his ideal mate under shadowy circumstances like Robert did (the fact Robert is in love with the idea of Lyanna more than her as an actual person is irrelevant). Likewise, just because Dany is a woman "unhappy in her marriage" doesn't make her or her situation and ability to change it the same as Cersei.

Two vaguely similar couples, I guess, but in reality very different. And, unlike Drogo, Robert seems to have been quite content being himself (loving women, food and drink) and not making any effort at all when emotional matters got difficult. Not that Drogo doesn't have his own issues, of course, but that's a different topic.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Yeah, Cersei could have made the best of a bad situation, but you know what?

So could Robert.

Really? That's attentive of you. Pretty sure we've all stated that somewhere in this thread. Hmm. The OP is just trying to get across a different side of the argument, but maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[FuzzyJAM]

You're arguing a point that nobody had disagreed with, least of all me. Stop trying to create an argument when there isn't one.

Well then what's the point of this entire topic? Why focus on Cersei not supporting Robert and making the best of the marriage as opposed to the reverse?

[Buckwheat]

Comparing relationships like that doesn't work. Robert has some similarities to Drogo but Drogo didn't marry Dany after losing someone he viewed as his ideal mate under shadowy circumstances like Robert did (the fact Robert is in love with the idea of Lyanna more than her as an actual person is irrelevant). Likewise, just because Dany is a woman "unhappy in her marriage" doesn't make her or her situation and ability to change it the same as Cersei.

Two vaguely similar couples, I guess, but in reality very different. And, unlike Drogo, Robert seems to have been quite content being himself (loving women, food and drink) and not making any effort at all when emotional matters got difficult. Not that Drogo doesn't have his own issues, of course, but that's a different topic.

What do you mean by that? When was Drogo not content being himself. He did not even think anything was wrong.

I think that the couples can be comparable. Actually, one might argue that Dany had it worse than Cersei, she was from a completely different culture and did not know her husband's language. But she was more decided to make her marriage work.

[deleted01]

Well then what's the point of this entire topic? Why focus on Cersei not supporting Robert and making the best of the marriage as opposed to the reverse?

I can't speak for the OP, but it would seem to me that the discussion has moved on from that and included the other argument. There seems to be an even focus on both Robert and Cersei.

[Catastrophe]

To the OP, seriously Robert and Cersei are as bad as each other. It is an exercise in futility to try to make out that one of them is the victim and the other the villain.

Do you mean that about their marriage, or in general? Because within the context of their marriage, I agree that they were both equally bad. She was no worse a wife than he was a husband, and vice-versa. But as people, and especially as rulers, Cersei was exponentially worse than Robert was. I don't see how there's any doubt about it. Robert was a reckless louse, an irresponsible king, and even a bad friend, but he was never truly evil. I could never see him committing the kinds of crimes and atrocities that Cersei commits with abandon.

[Biglose]

Yeah, Cersei could have made the best of a bad situation, but you know what?

So could Robert.

True, but Robert did not endanger other people because of it.

It is kind of the "with power comes responsibility thing".

They both have privileged lives.

As shitty as her marriage might be, I guess 80% of all women in westeron would not mind to be in her possition.

Better than for example starving. Working every day in the fields with bleeding fingers and so on.

Robert totally fails as a husband, granted. Still does not allow her to fail as a Queen. She is not failing only Robert, she is failing the people.

The would be true the other way round. But thats not the case.

[jarl the climber]

We have to realize that Roberts parents died when he was very young and that this played a large part in how all the Barratheon brothers turned out. It is one of the reasons that he avoided really strong attachments with his children and women. Part of the reason that he was enamored with Lyanna is that she was taken from him. Cersei was in love with somebody else who she saw on an everyday basis. She was looking for an excuse not to love Robert out of guilt and he gave her plenty of reasons. If she had devoted herself to being his wife the worst of his excesses would have been mitigated probaly.

[Ser Hippie]

What do you mean by that? When was Drogo not content being himself. He did not even think anything was wrong.

You're misunderstanding. Robert is content being himself and unwilling to challenge himself in any way to grow emotionally. His emotional growth basically stops when Lyanna dies and he remains the same horny frat boy the rest of his life; he never makes an effort to grow up because it's too hard and, presumably, too painful.

Drogo's not much better as a person (imo) but he pretty clearly grows to appreciate Dany and their relationship in a way Robert never could or would w/regards to Cersei.

I think that the couples can be comparable. Actually, one might argue that Dany had it worse than Cersei, she was from a completely different culture and did not know her husband's language. But she was more decided to make her marriage work.

I don't know how they're comparable when Robert pretty much is the same person in GoT that he was during the rebellion, only with dozens of extra pounds on him. Robert's approach to his marriage and the underlying relationship is very different than Drogo's. Robert operates on a very superficial level - he doesn't love women (I don't think he ever truly loved Lyanna), he loves the idea of being loved and the feeling it gives him. I don't see him as the kind of character capable of having a healthy relationship with Cersei.

Again, as others have said, not that she made much of an effort either, but I don't think Robert was really ever interested in the kind of emotional growth that goes on between Dany and Drogo, even with Lyanna.

[Slurms McKenzie]

Well then what's the point of this entire topic? Why focus on Cersei not supporting Robert and making the best of the marriage as opposed to the reverse?

*Wags finger very sternly*

"Tut tut tut naughty" *A few more wags* "Right....well...let that be a lesson to you!!" :devil:

"Don't do it again!"

[David Selig]

I'd say that in their marriage Robert was much worse than Cersei and it's not even close. At least Cersei hid her cheating, Robert flaunted his publicly daily. He used physical violence on Cersei and he raped her regularly.

[Lady of Long Lake]

I think I see what you are talking about, OP. Well, Cersei definitely shares some of the blame for the unsucess of their marriage. She never gave Robert as much as a chance, she decided in the beginning she did not like him.

But, would it not be right also to consider that Robert called her Lyanna on their wedding night?

Yes he did, but I think I remember that Cersei slept with Jaime the morning of her wedding. Robert never knew but that's a big "F*** You" to give your new husband on his wedding day. Their union was fated for disaster on both sides.

I admire your naivety, but no, Robert was not "in love" with Lyanna. She was just his best friend's hot younger sister that he was looking forward to boffing.

To the best of Robert's ability, he WAS in love with Lyanna. Fifteen years later, his last few breaths were of her so I think she was more than a piece of tushie to him. They say Arya is like Lyanna and if Ned regaled Robert with stories of Lady Lyanna's wild antics, he probably fell in love with her years before he even set eyes on her. That kind of unconventional and unique highborn Lady would greatly appeal to Robert, who was a physical kinda guy with more testosterone than gray matter.

He was a simple guy and he loved her with all his heart and soul, IMO.