A woman makes a man: Robert and Cersei

[deleted01]

I'd say that in their marriage Robert was much worse than Cersei and it's not even close. At least Cersei hid her cheating, Robert flaunted his publicly daily. He used physical violence on Cersei and he raped her regularly.

Because Cersei was never physically violent to him, didn't abort his child or cheat on him. Oh, she hid it, so that's better is it? I don't understand this line of thinking. Raped her regularly? Where is that said? Cersei told Ned herself that Robert hadn't been inside her for years; she found other ways to 'finish him off'.

[FuzzyJAM]

True, but Robert did not endanger other people because of it.

It is kind of the "with power comes responsibility thing".

They both have privileged lives.

As shitty as her marriage might be, I guess 80% of all women in westeron would not mind to be in her possition.

Better than for example starving. Working every day in the fields with bleeding fingers and so on.

Robert totally fails as a husband, granted. Still does not allow her to fail as a Queen. She is not failing only Robert, she is failing the people.

The would be true the other way round. But thats not the case.

Oh, for sure. Cersei being a bad wife was considerably worse for the realm than Robert being a bad husband. She failed in her duty to the realm in a way he did not, although to be fair he didn't have that duty so we can't say he'd have done any better.

That doesn't change their duties to each other as husband and wife or even simply as people.

[The King in the South]

Yes he did, but I think I remember that Cersei slept with Jaime the morning of her wedding. Robert never knew but that's a big "F*** You" to give your new husband on his wedding day. Their union was fated for disaster on both sides.

To the best of Robert's ability, he WAS in love with Lyanna. Fifteen years later, his last few breaths were of her so I think she was more than a piece of tushie to him. They say Arya is like Lyanna and if Ned regaled Robert with stories of Lady Lyanna's wild antics, he probably fell in love with her years before he even set eyes on her. That kind of unconventional and unique highborn Lady would greatly appeal to Robert, who was a physical kinda guy with more testosterone than gray matter.

He was a simple guy and he loved her with all his heart and soul, IMO.

He loved her so much with his heart and soul that he did nothing in reaction to her "kidnap" and during the rebellion slept with an entire brothel well she was supposedely being raped. Not to mention the fact that he didn't bother to go looking for her once he had become crowned king, even though it was perfectly in his power and that was supposedely what the rebellion was about.

But I'm sure he loved her.

[jarl the climber]

At one point after Joffrey cut the cat open to see the kittens Robert suggested bringing a bastard daughter to court, I have to assume it was Maya. Cersei more or less threatened to kill her if he did, and then he struck her for it. I'm not advocating violence to women but I could see someone hitting me if I threatened to kill their child. Bringing Maya to court might have been a good idea. Tommen and Myrcella probaly would have liked her.

[Buckwheat]

You're misunderstanding. Robert is content being himself and unwilling to challenge himself in any way to grow emotionally. His emotional growth basically stops when Lyanna dies and he remains the same horny frat boy the rest of his life; he never makes an effort to grow up because it's too hard and, presumably, too painful.

Drogo's not much better as a person (imo) but he pretty clearly grows to appreciate Dany and their relationship in a way Robert never could or would w/regards to Cersei.

Oh, yes, I misunderstood. I thought you implied Drogo had some psychical issues. You are right about Robert, that he could not accustome to new circumstances and the fact that he lost Lyanna.

I don't know how they're comparable when Robert pretty much is the same person in GoT that he was during the rebellion, only with dozens of extra pounds on him. Robert's approach to his marriage and the underlying relationship is very different than Drogo's. Robert operates on a very superficial level - he doesn't love women (I don't think he ever truly loved Lyanna), he loves the idea of being loved and the feeling it gives him. I don't see him as the kind of character capable of having a healthy relationship with Cersei.

Again, as others have said, not that she made much of an effort either, but I don't think Robert was really ever interested in the kind of emotional growth that goes on between Dany and Drogo, even with Lyanna.

That is, I think also the way Drogo is at the beginning of AGOT, I think. But we never see his POV, so our perspectives on him might be very different.

[Biglose]

Oh, for sure. Cersei being a bad wife was considerably worse for the realm than Robert being a bad husband. She failed in her duty to the realm in a way he did not, although to be fair he didn't have that duty so we can't say he'd have done any better.

That doesn't change their duties to each other as husband and wife or even simply as people.

I did not write wife, I wrote Queen. See the differance?

Yes, for him it would be a bit more difficult. Lets say when she gives birth switch the children and kill/hide hers. But possible it would be.

The point is their duties to each others is kind of their problem.

[FuzzyJAM]

I did not write wife, I wrote Queen. See the differance?

Yes, for him it would be a bit more difficult. Lets say when she gives birth switch the children and kill/hide hers. But possible it would be.

The point is their duties to each others is kind of their problem.

Sure.

I was just pointing out that Cersei being a worse person overall and her actions having worse consequences, while clearly the case,, doesn't mean she was a worse wife than he was husband, which is what the topic is about (or at least has been).

[Biglose]

Sure.

I was just pointing out that Cersei being a worse person overall and her actions having worse consequences, while clearly the case,, doesn't mean she was a worse wife than he was husband, which is what the topic is about (or at least has been).

I guess nobody is doubting that.

[Queen Cersei I]

People often forget that we are products of our life experiences and the environment around us.

Robert was crushed by Lyanna's death. If his version of the story was true (which i don't think so), the girl he loved just got kidnapped and died at the hands of her rapist.

Yes, but he was sleeping with an entire house full of prostitutes as he believed this was happening. As I noted before, this doesn't equal PURE :devil: EVIIIL :devil: . However, it does cast some question on whether or not Robert's feelings for Lyanna were as true, deep, and sincere as he claims years after her death. (And, to be fair, as he genuinely seems to believe.)

Personally, I think many signs point to the Lyanna obsession being something of a fantasy on Roberts part. Not based on his actual feelings for her while she was alive, so much as a self created fantasy that he could retreat into when his life became unhappy and uncomfortable for him. He wasn't just "in love" with Lyanna; but with a false ideal of how perfect his life could have been "if only."

There are plenty of signs that Robert's "deep love"-- or, frankly, rather obsessive, fantasy based little hang up-- on Lyanna did not start until after he lost her. Quite a few things suggest that while Lyanna was living and around, Robert neither paid much attention to her nor bothered to get to know her very well. For instance, at the Harrenhal tourney that the Reed kids remind Bran of, the supposedly enamored Robert Baratheon does not pay one bit of attention to his one true love, sitting at the same table. Instead he challenges the other guys to drinking contests, boasts about his prowess, and declares he can defeat the KotLT (probably actually his betrothed.)

Later, Ned's reflections suggest that Lyanna knew Robert very little. Her comments on him indicate mild disaproval ("Robert will never keep to one bed. I have heard he has gotten a child upon some girl in the Vale already"), and that most of what she knows of him is hearsay. Of course, that was when they were first betrothed, and the two could have gotten to know each other better after that. However when Robert notes to Ned in AGOT that Lyanna would have let him fight in the tourney, and "Never shamed me" the way Cersei did, Ned counters that Robert saw only her beauty, and never truly knew her. This indicates that Robert didn't even know Lyanna that well at all, and his perception of her was largely based in fantasy.

Of course, it could be argued that "Robert loved her from afar," however, what we know could just as easily suggest the following-- that Robert's "epic love" for Lyanna was very much fantasy based, and orginiated only after he'd lost her. And deepened considerably after his own unhappy marriage to Cersei. Of course, I'd suspect that Robert was excited about marrying Lyanna from the very beginning, because she was a gorgeous girl and the sister of the guy he loved like a brother. Add in the political alliance, and you've got yourself a great match. However, I question whether Robert truly loved or even thought a great deal about Lyanna before her dissapearence with Rhaegar.

Brienne says that Robert did all he did for love; Jaime counters "Robert did what he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." I think Jaime's closer to the truth. When Lyann disapeared, it seems like it would have been to much of a blow to Robert's pride to admit she may have run away with Rhaegar.. So he disguised his jealousy and hurt prize as righteous rage, claimed he adored Lyanna (and doubtlessly convinced himself that this was true), and went to war out of revenge and self preservation.

After the war, he lost the girl, which rid him of the incovenient choice of having to accept or reject her after she'd been "used." He very much believed he was in love with her at this point. The he marries Cersei, is utterly miserable with her, and retreats into the "Lyanna was the perfect woman and my one and only true love and soulmate" fantasy he'd already created.

That's how I'd judge it, honestly.

And regardless of whether Robert really did love Lyanna when she was around before she dissapeared, the fact remains that the "fatal blow" of Lyanna's death did not fundamentally alter his character, which basically seems the same both before and after Lyanna's death.

[Fragile Bird]

I think one of the strongest proofs of what the OP says comes in ASOS, after Jaime has come back from Harrenhall and he returns to the KG tower to find Cersei in his room wanting sex. He refuses to have sex in the hallowed halls of Kingsguardium, and their conversation ends up in a fight where Cersei asks, did they take his hand at Harrenhall, or his manhood. The salient point for me is the fact she tries to make him jealous by saying Tywin wants to marry her off, and she wants him at her side to have sex with. She doesn't want to marry Jaime, no. She'll marry some lord if forced to, but still cheat on him. Jaime won't do that.

But to me it's telling. I agree with the OP. She never tried in her marriage to Robert and if she was going to get married again,she wasn't going to try in that marriage either.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Yes, but he was sleeping with an entire house full of prostitutes as he believed this was happening. As I noted before, this doesn't equal PURE :devil: EVIIIL :devil: . However, it does cast some question on whether or not Robert's feelings for Lyanna were as true, deep, and sincere as he claims years after her death. (And, to be fair, as he genuinely seems to believe.)

Personally, I think many signs point to the Lyanna obsession being something of a fantasy on Roberts part. Not based on his actual feelings for her while she was alive, so much as a self created fantasy that he could retreat into when his life became unhappy and uncomfortable for him. He wasn't just "in love" with Lyanna; but with a false ideal of how perfect his life could have been "if only."

There are plenty of signs that Robert's "deep love"-- or, frankly, rather obsessive, fantasy based little hang up-- on Lyanna did not start until after he lost her. Quite a few things suggest that while Lyanna was living and around, Robert neither paid much attention to her nor bothered to get to know her very well. For instance, at the Harrenhal tourney that the Reed kids remind Bran of, the supposedly enamored Robert Baratheon does not pay one bit of attention to his one true love, sitting at the same table. Instead he challenges the other guys to drinking contests, boasts about his prowess, and declares he can defeat the KotLT (probably actually his betrothed.)

Later, Ned's reflections suggest that Lyanna knew Robert very little. Her comments on him indicate mild disaproval ("Robert will never keep to one bed. I have heard he has gotten a child upon some girl in the Vale already"), and that most of what she knows of him is hearsay. Of course, that was when they were first betrothed, and the two could have gotten to know each other better after that. However when Robert notes to Ned in AGOT that Lyanna would have let him fight in the tourney, and "Never shamed me" the way Cersei did, Ned counters that Robert saw only her beauty, and never truly knew her. This indicates that Robert didn't even know Lyanna that well at all, and his perception of her was largely based in fantasy.

Of course, it could be argued that "Robert loved her from afar," however, what we know could just as easily suggest the following-- that Robert's "epic love" for Lyanna was very much fantasy based, and orginiated only after he'd lost her. And deepened considerably after his own unhappy marriage to Cersei. Of course, I'd suspect that Robert was excited about marrying Lyanna from the very beginning, because she was a gorgeous girl and the sister of the guy he loved like a brother. Add in the political alliance, and you've got yourself a great match. However, I question whether Robert truly loved or even thought a great deal about Lyanna before her dissapearence with Rhaegar.

Brienne says that Robert did all he did for love; Jaime counters "Robert did what he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face." I think Jaime's closer to the truth. When Lyann disapeared, it seems like it would have been to much of a blow to Robert's pride to admit she may have run away with Rhaegar.. So he disguised his jealousy and hurt prize as righteous rage, claimed he adored Lyanna (and doubtlessly convinced himself that this was true), and went to war out of revenge and self preservation.

After the war, he lost the girl, which rid him of the incovenient choice of having to accept or reject her after she'd been "used." He very much believed he was in love with her at this point. The he marries Cersei, is utterly miserable with her, and retreats into the "Lyanna was the perfect woman and my one and only true love and soulmate" fantasy he'd already created.

That's how I'd judge it, honestly.

And regardless of whether Robert really did love Lyanna when she was around before she dissapeared, the fact remains that the "fatal blow" of Lyanna's death did not fundamentally alter his character, which basically seems the same both before and after Lyanna's death.

Your surprisingly gentle post amazes me, Queen:) It's quite beautiful and your perceptions ring true to me. One thing though, Ned does think in AGOT that this King is so different than the clear-eyed boy he remembers fighting along side of him. Robert being drunk ALL the time might be a post-Lyanna thing, or it could be a post-King thing, or a post-Cersei thing,( begging your pardon).

[LordofWinter]

Well if the saying "behind every great man is a great woman" is true than it stands to reason that "behind every terrible man is a terrible woman"

[Queen Cersei I]


At one point after Joffrey cut the cat open to see the kittens .... I'm not advocating violence


But Robert was advocating violence. In order to teach Joffrey a lesson about the wrongness of violence he... punched Joffrey so hard, the kid was knocked out. And Stannis believed him to be dead, Robert had hit him so hard.

I apologize for going a bit off topic here, and realize that in your post, you were referring to Robert hitting Cersei, rather than Joffrey. However, I think this one incident serves as a pretty good example of Robert's characteristic reaction to things-- he tends to react to all of his problems with violence, regardless of whether or not the person with him was his equal in strength, a child, his wife, or what have you. Throughout AGOT, we see him lashing out in anger, comitting a violent deed, then feeling remorseful (sort of) afterwards, wishing he would have done it. I find it hard to believe that any woman Robert married would have not eventually ended up feeling his fists, after angering or upsetting him. Robert didn't hit Cersei because Cersei was evil, but because violence was the way that Robert dealt with his problems.


At one point after Joffrey cut the cat open to see the kittens Robert suggested bringing a bastard daughter to court, I have to assume it was Maya. Cersei more or less threatened to kill her if he did, and then he struck her for it. 


He also hit Cersei for insulting his masculinity, something that harmed no one, save for Robert's pride.


Cersei more or less threatened to kill her if he did, and then he struck her for it. I'm not advocating violence to women but I could see someone hitting me if I threatened to kill their child. 


This is problematic, because it notes that a man hitting his wife is more acceptable if the wife deserves it. If Robert were truly concerned for the well being of his children, he should have monitored Cersei's activities closely and, upon learning of her infanticide, had her imprisoned or executed. Instead he chose to turn to domestic violence. Worse, he turned a blind eye to Cersei's activities out of moral laziness, and kept creating bastards and abandoning them, almost surely after having heard rumors about Cersei's atrocities WRT his bastard children.

Cersei's infanticide is clearly inexcusable and evil, but that does not excuse or mitigate Robert's domestic abuse in any way. The fact that he is just as liable to hit her for calling him a wimp as for threatening to commit atrocities is also problematic.

Well if the saying "behind every great man is a great woman" is true than it stands to reason that "behind every terrible man is a terrible woman"

:lmao:

[Dr. Pepper]

Wow, OP, just wow. I'm sort of baffled here. No matter what type of stupid fool and bitch of a wife Cersei was, she didn't make Robert into anything. He came to their marriage already made. She could have loved him to bits and been the perfect little lady wife and none of it would have mattered. He would have been the same exact person even if he were married to Lyanna. His 'lost love' with Lyanna is just a convenient excuse to explain away his own poor character.

Robert had one great moment in all his life; avenging his precious love (and I do not think it was love, more like lust and then a caveman style quest to get his property back) by killing the evil kidnapper/rapist on the Trident. And they didn't even make a song about him. :bawl: Lyanna knew him for a drunken whore and even said he wasn't going to change. She was right. He continues to be a drunken whore who's terrible at being a king. He has a 15 year peace, which is a natural side effect of war, yet he throws the realm into unprecedented levels of debt and all he has to show for it is memories of tourneys, a fat gut, and 16 bastards. The only thing Lyanna might have been able to do better than Cersei is whip up a better small council and prevent the heavy flow of loans coming in from Casterly Rock (though not so much the Iron Bank), oh and of course she probably wouldn't have been conceiving heirs with her brother(s). In the end, Robert would have used a different excuse to explain away his poor behavior. Maybe he would use the dead mother card.

Either way, Robert was responsible for his own behavior.

[Jayaris]

Is this serious? The man starts their marriage off by screaming another woman's name during sex and from there goes to be a drunkard and sleep with many hundreds of whores. Every single time we see any interaction between the two, and everything we know about their relationship, shows Robert to have been about as bad as you can expect a husband to be.

Obviously Cersei was a terrible wife, but to give her the blame for Robert being a terrible husband on top of that is just. . .ridiculous. If anything, Robert is far more responsible for Cersei being a bad wife than she is for him being a bad husband, but the circular argument of who is more to blame is just stupid to the extreme.

IIRC, didn't he murmur as opposed to scream?

[Fragile Bird]

Is this serious? The man starts their marriage off by screaming another woman's name during sex and from there goes to be a drunkard and sleep with many hundreds of whores. Every single time we see any interaction between the two, and everything we know about their relationship, shows Robert to have been about as bad as you can expect a husband to be.

Obviously Cersei was a terrible wife, but to give her the blame for Robert being a terrible husband on top of that is just. . .ridiculous. If anything, Robert is far more responsible for Cersei being a bad wife than she is for him being a bad husband, but the circular argument of who is more to blame is just stupid to the extreme.

You know, there is no reason to exagerate like this, there are enough valid issues between Robert and Cersei without using inflammatory language.

[FuzzyJAM]

You know, there is no reason to exagerate like this, there are enough valid issues between Robert and Cersei without using inflammatory language.

It wasn't an exaggeration, it was a mistake.

:D

[Fragile Bird]

It wasn't an exaggeration, it was a mistake.

:D

Ok, I can accept that. :cool4:

[etu]

He also hit Cersei for insulting his masculinity, something that harmed no one, save for Robert's pride.

This is problematic, because it notes that a man hitting his wife is more acceptable if the wife deserves it. If Robert were truly concerned for the well being of his children, he should have monitored Cersei's activities closely and, upon learning of her infanticide, had her imprisoned or executed. Instead he chose to turn to domestic violence. Worse, he turned a blind eye to Cersei's activities out of moral laziness, and kept creating bastards and abandoning them, almost surely after having heard rumors about Cersei's atrocities WRT his bastard children.

Cersei's infanticide is clearly inexcusable and evil, but that does not excuse or mitigate Robert's domestic abuse in any way. The fact that he is just as liable to hit her for calling him a wimp as for threatening to commit atrocities is also problematic.

Without wishing to defend Robert's domestic violence anymore (and probably less) than the following words can possibly be construed to but -

Most courts of law accept provocation as mitigation when sentencing a crime. The idea that we should be more lenient than we might otherwise be against someone whose actions were taken in response to unreasonableness from others is not uncommon. The man is still guilty, but his actions were that of a man with poor self-control being angered, rather than that of a sadist. In the situation. And Robert was most definitely provoked.

Genuinely insulting your husband's masculinity, threatening his children and other such acts is not a recipe for happy marriage. It does not reflect well on Cersei (I know, duh). In fact, the impression I get is that Cersei will, if needful, provoke Robert into violence so she can later use his shame against him. She deliberately attacks his ego at its most vulnerable spots i.e. Robert's pride in his masculinity. If Robert goes out there to hurt her with his fists, Cersei is out there to hurt him with her tongue, and that can be just as wounding a weapon. And I don't believe she has to be nearly as angry as Robert does to use the weapon of choice.

Earlier I said they were always going to be bad spouses. I'd like to amend that. They were always going to be bad, but they weren't necessarily going to be terrible. Both persons could have had decent marriages with tolerant spouses who were willing to make an effort and be forgiving of the flaws in their character. But they really did make each other terrible. Both as guilty for the other, as I do not see that type of emotional abuse as any more forgiveable than physical abuse. And truthfully, I'd say both can claim mitigation considering the actions of the other, but then I'm a very forgiving person.

[Biglose]

@Queen Cersei

The major issue is, that most of the actions Robert could have taken, regarding his "children", would have just screwed up the story.

So you have to create a personality to support it. And thats hard if you take an obvious broken marriage as basis.