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Where are the great knights?


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Barristan the Bold, best Kingsguard member that ever did serve. It is known.

I don't want to make a separate thread for this, but Barristan is far from the best kingsguard. In fact I can name 5 of Aerys' Kingsguard who were better:

LC Gerold Hightower

Arthur Dayne

Oswell Whent

Lewyn Martell

Jonothor Darry

Jaime may be the Kingslayer but Barristan is a Kingchanger. Aerys' kingsguard ought to all have died defending him and his family, the KG at the Tower of Joy didn't give in even though the war was as good as over, only Dorne had any interest in continuing by that point. Barristan is likeable and a great fighter but he isn't the super honourable man that everyone (including Ned) believe.

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I don't want to make a separate thread for this, but Barristan is far from the best kingsguard. In fact I can name 5 of Aerys' Kingsguard who were better:

LC Gerold Hightower

Arthur Dayne

Oswell Whent

Lewyn Martell

Jonothor Darry

Jaime may be the Kingslayer but Barristan is a Kingchanger. Aerys' kingsguard ought to all have died defending him and his family, the KG at the Tower of Joy didn't give in even though the war was as good as over, only Dorne had any interest in continuing by that point. Barristan is likeable and a great fighter but he isn't the super honourable man that everyone (including Ned) believe.

Well Barristan was pretty severely wounded at the Trident if I recall correctly. By the time he healed up the war would have been over wouldn't it.

What I always wonder about is why Barristan would continue to serve in the KG. How does he stomach serving with Kingslayer all those years if his vows meant anything to him. He should have been on the Wall.

Also his realizing what a mistake it was to serve Robert after being kicked out of the Kingsguard always seems too much like the man who finds religion after he's been sent to jail.

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Who are the very best of the knights who remain in Westeros? I mean “best” in the way that Ser Arthur Dayne and the rest of Aerys’s Kingsguard wer true knights. If you could assemble seven knights to serve as the Iron Throne’s Kingsguard at the end of the series, who would these be?

Yes, I know most of those one might wish to name will end up perishing ere the end, but if they lived anyway. Who would these magnificent seven whitecloaks be? And who would be their captain, their Lord Commander?

  • Certainly Ser Barristan, Ser Jaime, and Ser Loras are true to the knightly graces, but they’re already present members. Who else then?
  • I believe that Ser Brienne of Tarth is a knight true and through, and that she deserves the posting to complete her journey to honor her honorable ancestor, the quondam Lord Commander, Ser Duncan of Pennytree, he who was by foul perfidy slain at Summerhall with his king.
  • What about the Darkstar, Ser Gerold Dayne? Would he, like his uncle, eventually come to wield Dawn as the Sword of the Morning and also like Ser Arthur become renowned as the deadliest of all the Kingsguard?
  • Who else could serve? Who else should serve? Young Bran dreamt ever and anon of becoming a knight of the Kingsguard, but I fear it is not to be unless perchance by virtue of Bran’s manning the future Ser Hodor of Winterfell.
  • I believe Ser Davos Seaworth has the requisite moral framework, but after his labours and loss, I believe that our Lord of the Rainwood and Admiral of the Narrow Sea justly deserves to retire with his family.
  • I don’t know what I think of Ser Rolly Duckfield of Prince Aegon’s current Kingsguard. I do not wish to speak of ill of him, for he would die for his prince, which is all that is needed. But I do not have as much trust in his knightly-ness, or however you’re supposed to call that qualification.
  • What of Ser Gerris Drinkwater? Might he serve? Was he the thick one or the perspicacious one of the two Dornishmen who arrived with Prince Frog?
  • I do not think Ser Jorah Mormont is destined for a white cloak. He may yet redeem himself in his Queen’s eyes, but I think he has another destiny, perhaps at the Wall.
  • Hm... Tommen, perhaps? Like Bran, little Tommy Hill has likewise always dreamt of like becoming a knight. Might he become a good one someday? He reveres Ser Loras and strives to emulate him. Yes of course he’s too young, but I can see him being renamed someday Ser Tommen Lannister Baratheon by a merciful monarch and then taking the white.

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Barristan Selmy was seriously wounded at the Trident. I doubt he would've been in good enough condition to then go off to the Tower of Joy and join the rest of his brothers in their suicidal last stand. What is the point of dying when by the time you've recovered, all the Kingsguard (save Jaime) are dead, your King is dead, his heirs are dead or exiled and everything you fought for in the past is gone?

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I think Barristan makes it clear that celibacy isn't an issue, he remarks on Prince Lewyn having a paramour I think. The lands are the bigger issue. I think if Jaime could have the people he wanted for knights (you have to remember a lot of those knights died in Roberts Rebellion.) then he'd take:

  • Barristan Selmy
  • Brynden Tully
  • Loras Tyrell (Loras is perfect as a 3rd son as well)
  • Balon Swann
  • Brienne?

And I'm not sure of the last space, possibly Sandor before he went AWOL.

“Others might,” said Ser Barristan. “The Red Viper was your uncle. And you have good reason to want King Hizdahr dead.”

“So do others,” suggested Gerris Drinkwater. “Naharis, for one. The queen’s …”

“… paramour,” Ser Barristan finished, before the Dornish knight could say anything that might besmirch the queen’s honor. “That is what you call them down in Dorne, is it not?” He did not wait for a reply. “Prince Lewyn was my Sworn Brother. In those days there were few secrets amongst the Kingsguard. I know he kept a paramour. He did not feel there was any shame in that.”

“No,” said Quentyn, red-faced, “but …”

Good catch on Prince Lewin’s paramour, and absolutely right on the money in the case of Brienne. I wonder whether it shall be Jamie himself from whom she shall receive her knighthood. I hope so.

Sandor is not a knight, nor shall ever be. And he’s somewhat crippled.

They could not take another Tyrell; Garlan has other duties.

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Well Barristan was pretty severely wounded at the Trident if I recall correctly. By the time he healed up the war would have been over wouldn't it.

What I always wonder about is why Barristan would continue to serve in the KG. How does he stomach serving with Kingslayer all those years if his vows meant anything to him. He should have been on the Wall.

Also his realizing what a mistake it was to serve Robert after being kicked out of the Kingsguard always seems too much like the man who finds religion after he's been sent to jail.

A Kingsguard does not choose his King, Barristan should have refused to serve Robert, as the 3 at the ToJ did. He could have chosen the Wall (as he thought Jaime should have), died or went into exile with Viserys and Daenerys. Barristan may have had good reasons for not following Viserys but I'm afraid that isn't the job of a Kingsguard.

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I think the point of the plot is that the "Great Knights" are yet to be revealed. We keep hearing stories about the old great knights and we have really yet to have anyone save Selmy stand out as such and he is of the old generation.... We are following the stories of the new ones and it will be exciting to find out who ends up coming out on top - pertaining to honor and prowess in a fight/battle.

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The Rebellion really did thin the herd of great knights in Westeros. Both sides lost many great men, who were either becoming great knights already, or were too young to be knights at that point. Think of all the young squires and paiges' that must have died...all great knights start out as squires and paiges. A whole generation of knighthood was lost, and the war of the 5 kings did not help matters in that regard. Many Lords only have one son left, and are want to let their lines end with them.

As far as the KG goes, I think it's more symptomatic of who is picking the KG rather than the availability of knights. Come on, Blount and Trant? The effing Kettlebacks? Give me a break. Swann and Loras are the only two who skill-wise belong, Jaime is damaged goods with his missing hand, but is still reliable and will only get better one handed as time goes on. He wasn't that far off the mark when he said Ser Arthur could take them all out with one hand while taking a piss with the other. It's a shame the KG is a shadow of its former self, maybe future iterations of it will be more worthy.

Once again it is implied in the books from people have seen him train, that Kettleblack is at least close to equal to the Hound as a swordsman. So to say he isnt skilled enough to be in the KG and Loras is, is just foolish. Unless of course you think Loras could beat the Hound which I would completely disagree with.

Although I agree with you about Jaime being right in regards to Dayne. None of them would be any sort of match for hiim. Maybe a two handed Jaime could give him a fight for a little bit before his sword broke, but thats it.

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Once again it is implied in the books from people have seen him train, that Kettleblack is at least close to equal to the Hound as a swordsman. So to say he isnt skilled enough to be in the KG and Loras is, is just foolish. Unless of course you think Loras could beat the Hound which I would completely disagree with.

Where exactly are you getting that? The summary of the Kettleblack's ability I remember is when Tyrion remarks that Cersei said he was "as good with a sword as he is loyal." Tyrion notes that this is sadly true as the Kettleblacks have been selling him Cersei's secrets for a while. I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist. From what I gathered, they were average at best.

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Where exactly are you getting that? The summary of the Kettleblack's ability I remember is when Tyrion remarks that Cersei said he was "as good with a sword as he is loyal." Tyrion notes that this is sadly true as the Kettleblacks have been selling him Cersei's secrets for a while. I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist. From what I gathered, they were average at best.

i can't exactly remember which chapter is was (perhaps Sansa) but its stated that he is equally as strong and quicker while fighting than the Hound (not an exact quote), Sansa seems to be in disbelief. I can't remember exactly where but its in there.

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Where exactly are you getting that? The summary of the Kettleblack's ability I remember is when Tyrion remarks that Cersei said he was "as good with a sword as he is loyal." Tyrion notes that this is sadly true as the Kettleblacks have been selling him Cersei's secrets for a while. I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist. From what I gathered, they were average at best.

There's kitchen talk in the books somewhere, can't find it but remember it, about Kettleblack being just as strong as the Hound only younger and faster. It's gossip that's not meant to be taken seriously.

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There's kitchen talk in the books somewhere, can't find it but remember it, about Kettleblack being just as strong as the Hound only younger and faster. It's gossip that's not meant to be taken seriously.

Thats your opinion. But this is the only accounts of their ability that we have, so it is better to go by this than our own opinions.

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Thats your opinion. But this is the only accounts of their ability that we have, so it is better to go by this than our own opinions.

"and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster."

Yep, that's my opinion. Not going to take the gossip of washing women very seriously when it comes to swords.

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Budj, I love your comment about waiting for the "Great Knights" to finally come back. It just makes me think of Star Wars, and how the Jedi were all wiped out, and there is nobody left to teach the new generation of Jedi/Knights about REAL honor, how a TRUE knight acts. Basically, guys like Ser Arthur were honorable with impeccable manners, but were ready to rock and roll at the drop of a hat and fight to the death for what they believed in. Instead, today we have guys like the Hound, Loras, and others who have the talent but not the code or the airs about themselves. Me thinks that Ser Arthur would have hunted down the Mountain and cut his freaking head off for giving "sers" such a bad name.

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Other than that one quote, It is constantly implied that the Kettlebacks were quite mediocre. By those who would know (Jamie).

Lothor Brune is probably the most underrated fighter. The feats that earned him his nickname, Apple-Eater sound pretty crazy. And he's probably one of the best paid knights (being Petyr's most important knight).

Lyn Corbray can probably dice up many a good knight with Lady Forlorn.

Barristan should have chosen the wall (The fact that he didn't confuses me, considering his character).

I'm curious to see the skills of "Left" and "Right". Considering that wise players have the best warriors around them (clearly not Cersei or the Lannscum at KL). Doran's got Areo, Baelish the apple-eater. So I assume the QOT would not have two 7 foot tall pushovers.

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"and Sansa had heard the women at the washing well saying he was as strong as the Hound, only younger and faster."

Yep, that's my opinion. Not going to take the gossip of washing women very seriously when it comes to swords.

But you'll take your own opinion seriously? What is that based on?

Sorry but I just don't take that seriously. I would rather go by whats in the books instead of making it up ourselves.

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But you'll take your own opinion seriously? What is that based on?

Sorry but I just don't take that seriously. I would rather go by whats in the books instead of making it up ourselves.

Me too which is why I'll put more weight in the opinions of fighters like Kingslayer and Bronn than the gigglings of washerwomen that think Kettleblack is dreamy.

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Budj, I love your comment about waiting for the "Great Knights" to finally come back. It just makes me think of Star Wars, and how the Jedi were all wiped out, and there is nobody left to teach the new generation of Jedi/Knights about REAL honor, how a TRUE knight acts. Basically, guys like Ser Arthur were honorable with impeccable manners, but were ready to rock and roll at the drop of a hat and fight to the death for what they believed in. Instead, today we have guys like the Hound, Loras, and others who have the talent but not the code or the airs about themselves. Me thinks that Ser Arthur would have hunted down the Mountain and cut his freaking head off for giving "sers" such a bad name.

I don't think the "great knights" ever truly existed. Everyone is flawed and makes mistakes. That is as true in the books as it is in real life. I think Jamie's examining of the white book and Ser Barristan's musings on the members indicates that all people make mistakes or lie at times. These infallible "great knights" only exist in songs. Undoubtedly Ser Arthur was an incredible swordsman and had higher than usual honor. However, to think that he can't be defeated and is some sort of superhuman is foolish.

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Me too which is why I'll put more weight in the opinions of fighters like Kingslayer and Bronn than the gigglings of washerwomen that think Kettleblack is dreamy.

And what exactly did they say about the Kettleblacks, when exactly did they see them fight or fight with them? What chapter and page in what book because I'd love to go back and review that part. Jaime commented on how far the KG has fallen, of course there are no more Daynes, Barristans, Hightowers etc. but that isn't saying that these guys can't fight (Kettleblack, Swann, Loras that is), the only reference I remember him making directly to the Kettleblacks is the fact that he had never heard of them before. Once again I'd love to see where Jaime and Bronn said that the Kettleblacks can't fight and I'm seriously interested in seeing your answer in case I missed something.

Unless of course you are just making more assumptions.

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