[Book Spoilers] Pre-airing Discussion

[Colah02]

Plus all the wonderful golden droplets of wit and snark generously sprinkled throughout: Jaime: Ned's bastard, what's his name again? Cat: Brienne.. Jaime: No, that's not it... :P

That was in the books:

"What was the name of that bastard he fathered?"

Catelyn took a step backwards. "Brienne."

"No, that wasn't it."

[CrypticWeirwood]

CERSEI: It’s all fallen on me.

TYRION: So has Jamie, repeatedly, according to Stannis Baratheon.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

Yeah I don't understand why people are worried she isn't going to be Jeyne Westerling. The scene in the last episode was pretty much the nail-in-the-coffin for her being Jeyne, it you didn't think it already.

She mentioned the Crag. They wouldn't pick her of all people to mention this place if it didn't mean something.

She seemed very reluctant to go there. Why? Because someone would recognize her and expose her as being Jeyne. She's a highborn, even random people would probably give her some sign of recognition, (bowing to her or addressing her a m'lady) but the maester hands down would acknowledge her.

And the whole fact she is a freaking nurse. in the books she "nursed Robb back to health" if I remember right. I think the show just decided to play off that and literally make her a nurse.

And I apologize if all these points have already been stated a dozen times.

[CrypticWeirwood]

We haven’t seen the Widow Loras or his sister Margie for while. I wonder whether they’ll be back this season, or not till next one?

[Targaryen Kaiser]

We haven’t seen the Widow Loras or his sister Margie for while. I wonder whether they’ll be back this season, or not till next one?

I believe Loras will probably be around the end of the 9th episode and I guess his sister in the 10th. I see Loras be the one who will wear Renly's armor in the end of the fight.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I believe Loras will probably be around the end of the 9th episode and I guess his sister in the 10th. I see Loras be the one who will wear Renly's armor in the end of the fight.

Good call!

I wonder whether it will be done in a way that makes even the audience think it’s Renly? That would be cool.

[It is known.]

Good call! I wonder whether it will be done in a way that makes even the audience think it’s Renly? That would be cool.

Only problem with them including Renly's ghost is that he was never really shown wearing any particularly memorable armour :( I can't even remember if he wore the antlered helm at any point... If they'd made his armour green like in the books then casual viewers might have been more likely to recognise it as him.

[Crown]

We haven’t seen the Widow Loras or his sister Margie for while. I wonder whether they’ll be back this season, or not till next one?

I think Loras will appear in the Battle for Blackwater (wearing Renly's armor), and Margaery appears after the battle in King's Landing (announcing her engaged with Joffrey). Good way to end the King's Landing (Sansa, Joffrey, Margaery) arc for the season, and set up the events for the next season.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

I think Loras will appear in the Battle for Blackwater wearing Renly's armor, and Margaery appears after the battle in King's Landing.

She should, considering that they have to make clear that Margaery will marry Joffrey instead of Sansa. Maybe in the tenth episode.

[Dio Forel]

Perhaps one of the worst is an exaggeration, but yes I think it's done pretty badly as an adaptation. As a standalone show it's some of the best TV out there, but Season 2 at least is fairly unfaithful to the show, especially in these last few episodes. It's just that it most adaptations I've seen mostly are just constrained to cutting things out or compressing them, which is irksome but necessary with time and budgetary constraints. I could probably think of an example but off the top of my head I can't think of any other adaptation which outright adds so much material. That's my main gripe.

As for more faithful examples. Well what about Lotr, or Harry Potter, or Twilight? (even though I hate Twilight.)

We didn't have Snape beating Proffesor Slughorn to death did we? Or we didn't have Haldir stealing the one ring in order to become King of the elves and open Lothlorien to the world did we? Now before you go all mad, please note that they're exaggerated arguments but they get my point across. Most adaptations I have seen simply compress or cut. GOT is outright adding stuff. So no I don't think it's being very faithful. It was but no more, and I can only hope that Martin has some strong words with D+D so they get their act together for S3.

Ohhh no you didnt go there lol. You are gonna compare this to LOTR or Harry Potter claiming they were more loyal to the books than AGOT?? Hmmm... This is gonna be a long post since I actually made this point on another post lol.

LOTR:

1) They completely changed around the order of the battles.

2) Saruman was only stripped of his power and later became, in essence, a gang leader to be defeated in the books by hobbits at the end. Unlike the movie where he dies falling off the tower.

3) How about the random addition of an army of elves to the Two Towers battle at the end of the movie? Never happened in the book.

4) Frodo gets sick and leaves years later in the book, not upon arrival to the Shire at the end.

5) Gollum attacking Sam & Frodo, they actually were chillin waiting for him in the books.

6) Treebeard scaring Pippin & Merry in some crazy escape scene. Didnt happen they were just fine walking thru the forest and saw the Ent and talked to him casually.

7) Haldir dying in the battle at the end of Two Towers. In the book we dont see him after they leave the forest.

8) The whole scene with Frodo meeting the Ringwraith and it trying to steal the ring while Faramir and Co. save him. NEVER happened.

9) Faramir never kept Frodo to bring him back with the ring to Gondor. He let them do as they please with his full permission.

10) The whole thing with Arwen looking in the water seeing all these visions of the battle and the future, never happened.

Harry Potter:

1) Hmmm.... How about leaving out the entire battle of Half Blood Prince?

2) How about leaving out that during the escape attempt with the clone Harrys, Snape fired a curse that in essence actually saved Harry?

3) Burning down the Burrow with LeStrange & Co... never happened.

4) Harry just hiding under the tower as Snape secretly sneaks up to "save" Dumbledore.. he was invisible and immobilized in the books. Totally different for so many reasons.

5) Lets just totally leave out Bill becoming a werewolf after being bitten.

6) Barely any mention whatsoever of Voldemorts backstory which is a huge part of the books and how Dumbledore even knows where to go.

7) Little evil elf had his whole story changed about how he saved Regulus Black.

8) The whole dragon battle scene was different in the Goblet Of Fire.

9) Ummmmm the whole ending battle with Bellatrix and Voldemort and how in the books it was epic where they split off into battle teams, didnt happen in the movie shockingly.

10) Totally changing the Hall Of Prophecies battle and how Sirius died in the battle.

Theres so many deviations from both and changes to love plots and other minor things that would take hours and hours to list. So I think you are being a little bit extreme here acting like this adaptation is so far off the books. They totally changed the story of The Avengers... X-Men... and how many other movies significantly... I dont get why people treat this show like its that different than the books. Theres minor changes and some others more extreme to give substance to otherwise lacking plot points. Please tell me who wants to watch on-screen the horror that is Dany's storyline (or lack of a storyline)? We, as readers, have spent how many books asking ourselves "So when is Dany gonna f**n go home damn it!!!!!!!". So please lets not complain about things that give some added on-screen quality.

And again.... whats so bad about making it so even book readers can go into an episode not knowing exactly whats gonna happen? We have about 3 years until the next book comes out... so it is pretty nice being able to go into each week seeing some things I dont expect from a world that I have become so attached to.

[iheartseverus]

Ohhh no you didnt go there lol. You are gonna compare this to LOTR or Harry Potter claiming they were more loyal to the books than AGOT?? Hmmm... This is gonna be a long post since I actually made this point on another post lol. LOTR: 1) They completely changed around the order of the battles. 2) Saruman was only stripped of his power and later became, in essence, a gang leader to be defeated in the books by hobbits at the end. Unlike the movie where he dies falling off the tower. 3) How about the random addition of an army of elves to the Two Towers battle at the end of the movie? Never happened in the book. 4) Frodo gets sick and leaves years later in the book, not upon arrival to the Shire at the end. 5) Gollum attacking Sam & Frodo, they actually were chillin waiting for him in the books. 6) Treebeard scaring Pippin & Merry in some crazy escape scene. Didnt happen they were just fine walking thru the forest and saw the Ent and talked to him casually. 7) Haldir dying in the battle at the end of Two Towers. In the book we dont see him after they leave the forest. 8) The whole scene with Frodo meeting the Ringwraith and it trying to steal the ring while Faramir and Co. save him. NEVER happened. 9) Faramir never kept Frodo to bring him back with the ring to Gondor. He let them do as they please with his full permission. 10) The whole thing with Arwen looking in the water seeing all these visions of the battle and the future, never happened. Harry Potter: 1) Hmmm.... How about leaving out the entire battle of Half Blood Prince? 2) How about leaving out that during the escape attempt with the clone Harrys, Snape fired a curse that in essence actually saved Harry? 3) Burning down the Burrow with LeStrange & Co... never happened. 4) Harry just hiding under the tower as Snape secretly sneaks up to "save" Dumbledore.. he was invisible and immobilized in the books. Totally different for so many reasons. 5) Lets just totally leave out Bill becoming a werewolf after being bitten. 6) Barely any mention whatsoever of Voldemorts backstory which is a huge part of the books and how Dumbledore even knows where to go. 7) Little evil elf had his whole story changed about how he saved Regulus Black. 8) The whole dragon battle scene was different in the Goblet Of Fire. 9) Ummmmm the whole ending battle with Bellatrix and Voldemort and how in the books it was epic where they split off into battle teams, didnt happen in the movie shockingly. 10) Totally changing the Hall Of Prophecies battle and how Sirius died in the battle. Theres so many deviations from both and changes to love plots and other minor things that would take hours and hours to list. So I think you are being a little bit extreme here acting like this adaptation is so far off the books. They totally changed the story of The Avengers... X-Men... and how many other movies significantly... I dont get why people treat this show like its that different than the books. Theres minor changes and some others more extreme to give substance to otherwise lacking plot points. Please tell me who wants to watch on-screen the horror that is Dany's storyline (or lack of a storyline)? We, as readers, have spent how many books asking ourselves "So when is Dany gonna f**n go home damn it!!!!!!!". So please lets not complain about things that give some added on-screen quality. And again.... whats so bad about making it so even book readers can go into an episode not knowing exactly whats gonna happen? We have about 3 years until the next book comes out... so it is pretty nice being able to go into each week seeing some things I dont expect from a world that I have become so attached to.

This entire discussion moved over to the General section, 'Nitpick without Repercussions' thread, per instructions by Ran.

[Dio Forel]

Fine, if you weren't satisfied with those examples lets go to the show itself shall we? Lets take Jon's story. What was the purpose of Jon tying up Ygritte and then getting captured by the widlings? They could easily have filmed it as it happened in the books, so it would go like: E5: Jon chosen by Qhorin. E6: Meets Ygritte and lets her go E7: Jon has his wolf dream (sans the eagle.). Then him and the others are pursued by rangers and a couple go back to hold the pass. E8: Qhorin sends a ranger back to the fist to bring word to the fist of what Jon saw in his wolf dream. E9: Jon doesn't appear. E10: Jon and Qhorin are alone. We get the whole false oathbreaking thing. Perfectly manageable, exciting TV, no reason whatsoever not to do it like that. But instead of an exciting chase through the wilderness and a budding mentor relationship between Jon and Qhorin that remains faithful to the books, we get about 10 minutes of Ygritte talking about boners. Can you honestly tell me that that was an improvement, or justify such a change? And that's just one possible example of many.

This is a TV series that has a large demographic to accommodate. Yes, as readers it would be nice if it played out like the books were actually an exact script to the adaptation. But the fact is they have to have elements of comedy, drama, and some sexual content as well to be able to reach as many viewers as needed to keep this show alive. We need more than just the amount of people who read the books watching the show... If we only met the needs of us as readers there wouldnt be enough to make this show last. I more dislike the absolute absence of certain parts vs the changes. I agree the non-existence of the Eagle and Ghost and the whole concept of warging isnt necessary to cut to make this show work. We need more of that, and more flashbacks for some basic backing elements at least. We can leave out some of the boner talk to make time for other happenings that are sorely missed.

[iheartseverus]

So, when do we lose dear Maester Luwin? Will that be tonight?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Martin wrote Blackwater, so I believe the chain will be involved, there only must make a short statemant next episode, or even in the 9^th episode right before the battle, like:

Tyrion: I have a little surprise for Stannis, behold my chain!

One thing is for damned sure: no matter how it turns out, nobody but nobody gets to bellyache incessantly about S2E09 introducing non-auctorial changes (not that there’s anything wrong with that!) — which will be the most welcome change of all!

[Dio Forel]

So, when do we lose dear Maester Luwin? Will that be tonight?

After the torment we saw on his face to end the last episode that would be some great drama to then see him killed in this episode. It would really drive home the absolute deterioration of the North thanks to the new "Prince of Winterfell".

[iheartseverus]

One thing is for damned sure: no matter how it turns out, nobody but nobody gets to bellyache incessantly about S2E09 introducing non-auctorial changes ]

HAHAHA, surely you jest! I can hear it already...

Well, sure, GRRM wrote the episode but HBO made him change the way its supposed to go down!

GRRM has like, totally lost any credibility with me--I'm so finished with this series!

etc

etc

etc

:P

[CrypticWeirwood]

After the torment we saw on his face to end the last episode that would be some great drama to then see him killed in this episode. It would really drive home the absolute deterioration of the North thanks to the new "Prince of Winterfell".

Luwin supposedly has some final advice for Theon this episode.

That may mean he doesn’t have any finality left for bestowing the same upon Branrick and Hodosh when they emerge from the crypt to meet up with Summershag in the godswood.

If not, it may force me re-examine my studied assumption that Osha giving Luwin the gift of mercy under the hearttree is really a special kind of intentional sacrifice that will have special meaning. Perhaps it will reinvigorate and empower the great weirwood of Winterfell; perhaps it will do something else. But it’s a blood sacrifice to the weirwood, and this has got to mean something. Remember Bran’s visions when that particular hearttree was young. Remember White Harbour.

[Crown]

Luwin supposedly has some final advice for Theon this episode. That may mean he doesn’t have any finality left for bestowing the same upon Branrick and Hodosh when they emerge from the crypt to meet up with Summershag in the godswood. If not, it may force me re-examine my studied assumption that Osha giving Luwin the gift of mercy under the hearttree is really a special kind of intentional sacrifice that will have special meaning. Perhaps it will reinvigorate and empower the great weirwood of Winterfell; perhaps it will do something else. But it’s a blood sacrifice to the weirwood, and this has got to mean something. Remember Bran’s visions when that particular hearttree was young. Remember White Harbour.

The final advice for Theon from Luwin is not in this episode, it's inValar Morghulis, the last one.

[CrypticWeirwood]

HAHAHA, surely you jest! I can hear it already... Well, sure, GRRM wrote the episode but HBO made him change the way its supposed to go down! GRRM has like, totally lost any credibility with me--I'm so finished with this series! etc etc etc :P

Perhaps, perhaps.

And if that rage-quit is indeed the last anyone ever hears from them, we should consider ourselves lucky to be at last rid of their querulous lamentations.

Of course, that will never happen because it’s all so much sound and fury as from a ten-year-old, signifying nothing. They’ll be unable to keep their word.

God how I hate oathbreakers! 😻

[zippypoodle]

So we've all agreed that the show is a very faithful adapation of the novels and that there haven't been any substantive changes of any relevance? GOOD! Then we can put that argument behind us now that we all agree and move on.