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Ran

[Book Spoilers] Pre-airing Discussion

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Here's my wild-ass guess on how the Arya storyline goes:

Tywin hears about Stannis and rides for King's Landing. He decides to take his obviously high-born cupbearer with him. Arya races to Jaqen, makes him promise to do it right away -- and while the audience thinks the name is Tywin -- it's not.

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What I'm personally most concerned about at the moment is Jon's storyline. I think it's crucial that he join the wildings on Qhorin's orders. If he forsakes any vows without being commanded to, it would severely change the character, IMO. So I am a bit worried, but I'm assuming (hoping) that Jon is rescued by Ghost and/or Qhorin and the other black brothers in this episode or next, giving the story a chance to play out as it did in the book. This way the small divergence would only help make it a more reasonable choice for Qhorin to choose Jon to join them, I suppose, by making it look more likely, from the wilding perspective, that Jon would betray the NW.

I agree. I'm not a purist and do not complain about most deviations from the book; but I agree that it is important that Jon kills Qhorin and joins the Wildlings on the orders of Qhorin. There are many ways for this to happen. I am not concerned about Jon simply betraying his vows, either out of cowardice or lust. That's just not going to happen. Remember: Qhorin has already prepared the stage for his own death. The whole point of his asking Ygritte what the Wildlings would do to him if he was captured is to setup the moment for Jon's killing of Qhorin. He will kill Qhorin not just because Qhorin orders it but also as an act of mercy. At least that's my speculation.

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How exactly was his story, especially the last few chapters, boring in ACOK?? I am very curious as to how you think it was boring and why the show is an improvement over it.

Because it was nothing but boring, tedious descriptions of warging and lots of useless travelings that Martin likes to write about , though it's my least favorite thing in the books . Bottom line is that doesn't work in the show as in the books, you need some type of development or non book readers will get bored of his story. Just read some non book readers forums and you will see this .

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Am I seeing Jon making a run for it from Rattleshirt et al? There is hope yet for Jon and Qhorin to have their final conversation. Ghost also needs to get into some wildling throat ripping. He seems to be althogether far too aloof when it comes to Jon's welfare.

Rather miffed that the only Stark with wolf dreams has been Bran. Arya and Jon at least should have had one wolf dream this season. His platonic evening of spooning with Ygritte could have been it. And Arya trying to sleep in the prison cage could have been hers.

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Firstly - while Dagmer's relationship with Theon is obviously similar to "Reek's" in the book, that is not evidence that he is actually, secretly, Ramsay. Firstly, Roose says his bastard is at the Dreadfort. Dagmer was at Pyke, and there's absolutely no reason that Ramsay would be there. Even if he was there, it's puzzling why a northern bastard would be accepted as first mate of an Ironborn ship. Plus, the actor who plays Dagmer is over 40 - why on earth would they cast someone that old to play Ramsay, who is supposed to be a contemporary of Theon and Jon?

Secondly - I don't think it would make any sense to have Cersei threaten Ros. For one thing, she knows that Tyrion sent Joffrey whores, one of whom is Ros. Given that Joffrey abused her, why would she think that threatening to abuse her would upset Tyrion? The whole thing would just be totally confusing and not make sense. It seems to me that the most sensible thing would just be to have Cersei threaten Shae directly.

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With some of the recent (dumb) changes made throughout this season I'm really really worried about the House of the Undying. I have a feeling they will completely take the visions out. I may be done with the show if they do that.

Also I'm really hoping that we still get Qhorin's and Jon's escape, the eagle following them, and the speech and duel between them. That was one of the more epic moments in the second book.

And did Jon and Arya really have the wolf-dreams in the second book? I thought those came way later, as compared to Brans.

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Near the end of the preview... What was with Arya saying "I need him dead right now"? Are they changing her final "kill request"?

I thought she said "I need YOU dead..." not him.

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I thought she said "I need YOU dead..." not him.

I just watched (and listened) a couple times up close--she says I need HIM dead right now. My guess, its a moment of panic/realization on Ayra's part as Tywin/The Mountain are leaving Harrenhal--she suddenly realizes she's wasting her 3 deaths on pipsqueak punks and letting the Big Guys get away. I still see it being able to conform to what we're hoping for--Weasel Soup! Tywin rides away, Northern prisoners are brought in, Roose arrives, Ayra changes her mind and gives Jaqen her new order (which annoys him). She's a little kid, after all--she's perceives as the biggest threat those who're right in front of her being, well, threatening. She doesn't see the 'long game' of taking out the head of the snake in order to kill all the rest of its body.

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Something is going to go down with Shae, not Ros. That's pretty clear to me. Not sure whether she will be killed, tortured, imprisoned, or what, but it's going to hurt Tyrion.

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The episode description for Arya's scenes reads: "Arya calls in her final debt with Jaqen in a way that displeases him." [LINK]

First of all, I don't see a reason for there to be arya scenes at all in episode 9, "Blackwater" since it will mainly focus on KL battle (tyrion, stannis) and jon snow, and maybe (probably) some dany, possibly theon. This is more than enough to cover the hour IMO.

I think it's very likely that this episode will show tywin leave (since he's been a vital role in harrenhal scenes, his departure will apear on-screen), northerners will arrive shortly thereafter, and that weasel soup scene will occur or Arya will at least explain to Jaqen what she requires of him to unsay a name.

The name she whispers to him next episode must be Jaqen's and it can't be that she tells him to kill tywin before he leaves harrenhal or anything else b/c the description clearly mentions that she is calling in her last debt, not making a request that won't be fulfilled. It's very possible that Weasel soup happens this episode and Jaqen leaves in the last episode since that's the episode she will be leaving harrenhal in as well (and that will take up 2-3 scenes as well, waking gendry, killing guard, riding off). Although I'll be sad to see him leave us forever :(

....or at least until AFFC's prologue episode, that is :D

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With some of the recent (dumb) changes made throughout this season I'm really really worried about the House of the Undying. I have a feeling they will completely take the visions out. I may be done with the show if they do that.

Also I'm really hoping that we still get Qhorin's and Jon's escape, the eagle following them, and the speech and duel between them. That was one of the more epic moments in the second book.

And did Jon and Arya really have the wolf-dreams in the second book? I thought those came way later, as compared to Brans.

I believe Jon had his first (and only if I'm not mistaken) full warging wolf dream in book 2 when he scouted the wilding army in Ghost's body.

And In terms of Ramsay, I think he's just going to show up and be like I'm here to retake the castle, and then he'll basically convince Theon to surrender, and then Ramsay will basically demolish Winterfell anyway. That way they can work him into the story without being too confusing for the viewers who haven't read the books, but we still learn that Ramsay is a totally twisted dude, and we're in the same place as the books at that point in terms of Ramsay/Theon's story.

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After this week's episode, does anyone else have a strong suspicion that Dagmar is actually Ramsay? He has filled almost every one of Ramsay's plot points in this book. I know he doesn't look much younger than Roose but are we in for huge shock?

No. He's older than Roose, for one and 2, he was on Pyke. Not only was he on Pyke, but he was a known person in his scenes on Pyke.

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I'm praying to see a scene between Lancel and Cersie

You will at some point, but I'm not sure if it'll be this season. We have GOT to have Tyrion's she's slept with him and everyone else's statement to Jaime or I'll scream.

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Does anyone know what chapters I'd have to be on in CoK to be caught up with this next episode?

With the divergences, it's not easy to say. And it will only become more difficult.

Besides, what would be the point of doing that? I'm not sure why some insist on reading the book in parallel with the show. Why set yourself up for more disappointment when things don't match? It's better to get some distance between them, IMO.

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Re: not having the chain.

People are complaining that if they don't have the chain it will diminish Tyrion's contribution to the Battle of Blackwater. But remember that in the scene where they introduced the wildfire, Bronn made a big deal about wildfire not being good to use in actual combat, because the people using it would end up dropping it causing the side using wildfire more harm that good. I think Tyrions contribution will be the insight to just stick the wildfire in the derelicts and set Blackwater Bay on fire. Using them as Cercie had planned would have been disastrous, at least in the universe of the TV show. But Tyrion will have figured out how to use wildfire correctly.

I'm not so happy about Stannis giving Davos the command of his fleet. In the book, it was implied than Davos would have been much more cautious than the actual commander at Blackwater. Having Davos in command will make him seem less competent, and then Stannis making him hand will seem more insane.

Also, Davos isn't even a lord yet. In Westeros, it just seem weird to give a simple knight command of a fleet. At least make hime a lord first.

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I'm not so happy about Stannis giving Davos the command of his fleet. In the book, it was implied than Davos would have been much more cautious than the actual commander at Blackwater. Having Davos in command will make him seem less competent, and then Stannis making him hand will seem more insane.

It's not too late to revert to the original identity of the commander. As Davos said, the lords will not be pleased if a former smuggler were to lead them, so there's still a possibility of the lords overriding his commands at sea.

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Or the lords could simply ignore the commands of Davos and charge headlong into the trap despite Davos' warnings.

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Also, Davos isn't even a lord yet. In Westeros, it just seem weird to give a simple knight command of a fleet. At least make hime a lord first.

It is said in the summary of the episode that Stannis gives Davos a reward. I'm quite sure it will be his lordship.

Or the lords could simply ignore the commands of Davos and charge headlong into the trap despite Davos' warnings.

That's more likely and could be really well done on-screen.

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I don't see why people should get all upset over changes made to parts in the story. In the end, the main plot is still there.

Jaime may have killed Alton/Cleos, but in the end, Catelyn's gonna release him with Brienne and they'll head for King's Landing.

Jon may have chased Ygritte down and lost Quorin and the other Night's Watchmen, but he's still gonna end up captured by the Wildlings and taken to Mance Rayder (and if the ep. 10 summary is anything to go by, he's still gonna kill Quorin) .

Dany may have had her dragons stolen, and there is a power struggle in Qarth now, but she's going to end up in the HotU like in the books (albeit it might be a little different), and she's (most likely) gonna meet up with Arstan/Selmy sometime and get a ship.

Some things in KL may be changed slightly, but we're still gonna end up with the Battle of the Blackwater and Tyrion suffering an injury.

Arya's gonna escape Harrenhal (as the ep. 8 preview shows Tywin leaving), so she'll be escaping by the end of episode 10, and her story from ASoS will take hold.

So basically, who cares if a few minor characters are cut, if some minor plot points are altered. The main plot point is still there, even if the path leading there is a little different. I guess after seeing someone call this a "mediocre adaption", it kinda pissed me off. This is probably one of the best adaptions of a book series there ever was, staying as true as it can budget-wise to the source material. D&D have read the books and are fans the source material, and any change they make is most likely for adaption's sake. Since we're getting two seasons for ASoS, maybe it'll calm purists down since less things'll need to be changed since we have more time.

Have we been watching the same show?

This is one of the least faithful adaptation of a book series I've ever seen with most of the deviations made apparently for the hell of it when the plots from the book could have been filmed just as easily. It's such a shame considering how faithful season 1 was.

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