[Book Spoilers] Pre-airing Discussion

[PatrickStormborn]

An example perhaps? For instance why do you think that it wouldn't have worked to keep Jon's plot the same as in the book?

The dragons, for example. I'm starting to assume, from Pyat Pree's "they will thrive by her side" line, that they will grow bigger within the House of the Undying. As for Jon's story... I'm sorry, but it's not suited for TV. I actually enjoyed those chapters (which is a surprise because I dreaded Jon's chapters up until that point), but I wouldn't find them interesting to watch. In addition, Ygritte is a much more important character than Qhorin, who will most likely die in the season finale. Why waste time developing him when they could be building upon Jon's future relationship with Ygritte?

[gogorath]

Fine, if you weren't satisfied with those examples lets go to the show itself shall we?

Lets take Jon's story. What was the purpose of Jon tying up Ygritte and then getting captured by the widlings? They could easily have filmed it as it happened in the books, so it would go like:

E5: Jon chosen by Qhorin.

E6: Meets Ygritte and lets her go

E7: Jon has his wolf dream (sans the eagle.). Then him and the others are pursued by rangers and a couple go back to hold the pass.

E8: Qhorin sends a ranger back to the fist to bring word to the fist of what Jon saw in his wolf dream.

E9: Jon doesn't appear.

E10: Jon and Qhorin are alone. We get the whole false oathbreaking thing.

Perfectly manageable, exciting TV, no reason whatsoever not to do it like that. But instead of an exciting chase through the wilderness and a budding mentor relationship between Jon and Qhorin that remains faithful to the books, we get about 10 minutes of Ygritte talking about boners. Can you honestly tell me that that was an improvement, or justify such a change? And that's just one possible example of many.

I personally actually think the above was doable, except for perhaps the Eagle/Wolf Dream thing. The eagle'd be expensive, probably turn out ugly. I'm also pretty sure they are trying to limit the warging to Bran right now -- slowly phasing it in for clarity reasons. Things like prophetic dreams or warging are so much easier to show in books.

That said, I don't think the Jon plotline was changed because the above wouldn't work. I think it was changed because of the things going on in these scenes that you did not mention:

1. I think they realized that they needed to draw out the Ygritte plotline longer than it would have been if it had only really been in Season 3. There's a lot of plot in Storm of Swords, and I'm sure there was concerns about the romance accelerating at too quickly a pace. I think we can see where they've attempted to add with Jeyne as well, but that still feels like they haven't really reached anything but superficial attraction. If Jon and Ygritte are going to get together, it'd be nice to see a progression. To do that, they moved their interaction forward into Season 2. The flirting is the beginning of the love story.
   
2. The other conversations that have been occurring revolve around the differences between Southern and Wildling culture. It's part exposition, part setting up of Jon's struggles to maintain his vows. I expect Season 3 to end Jon's story with the attack on the South of Castle Black -- and that means a lot has to occur, meeting Mance Rayder, climbing the Wall, romance with Ygritte, leaving the Wildings, and then the battle. For those that think Jon never thought of breaking his vows, they will not like this (they will also be wrong). Someone also suggested that they may actually not show Qhorin and Jon talking about turning cloak until next season (as a flashback) to leave people guessing if he turned cloak. Again, they are setting up his dilemma now.
   
3. Aside from setting up Jon's journey of duty, of his choices later, the discussion of the Wildings plays perfectly into the overall themes of the show. I know a lot of people read the books and watch the show only for entertainment value, but I firmly believe Martin wrote in many of these themes because he wants people to ask questions -- he has something to say. While a medieval era discussion of freedom seems dated in modern society, more interesting is how the wildlings are some of the few commoners who truly understand their own power. Those savages -- how dare they not create institutions and traditions to limit their own power!
   

So what have we lost? The Wolf Dream. (And please, we have plenty of time to set up ADwD). I'll be with you if Jon really does turn cloak, but if not, has it really changed much? The conversations with Ygritte are true to the books -- they are just Book 3. And while many people like action, many of us prefer good character development and dialogue.

[KnightsOfDany]

With only three episodes left i don't think Tyrion's Chain will come into play. If i recall Tyrion had the chain going before the Dragonfire.

I think they may eliminate it and just run with the Dragonfire saves the city and Joff and Cersei will take all the credit and he gets the blame for burning down the hovels and what not

[Pellaeon]

With only three episodes left i don't think Tyrion's Chain will come into play. If i recall Tyrion had the chain going before the Dragonfire.

I think they may eliminate it and just run with the Dragonfire saves the city and Joff and Cersei will take all the credit and he gets the blame for burning down the hovels and what not

Martin wrote Blackwater, so I believe the chain will be involve, there only must make a short statemant next episode, or even in the 9th episode right before thhe battle, like: Tyrion:"I have a little surprise for Stannis, behold my chain"

[dreamcatcher]

I wouldn't like it if they kept people guessing if Jon turned cloak or not. We have that in ADwD!

[DragonAge93]

We could get a mention of the chain this episode, perhaps, maybe right in the beginning of episode 9. Like Pellaeon said, Martin wrote it, so he of all the writers will try to stay as close to his books as he possibly can.

[House Snow]

That said, I don't think the Jon plotline was changed because the above wouldn't work. I think it was changed because of the things going on in these scenes that you did not mention:

1. I think they realized that they needed to draw out the Ygritte plotline longer than it would have been if it had only really been in Season 3. There's a lot of plot in Storm of Swords, and I'm sure there was concerns about the romance accelerating at too quickly a pace. I think we can see where they've attempted to add with Jeyne as well, but that still feels like they haven't really reached anything but superficial attraction. If Jon and Ygritte are going to get together, it'd be nice to see a progression. To do that, they moved their interaction forward into Season 2. The flirting is the beginning of the love story.
   
2. The other conversations that have been occurring revolve around the differences between Southern and Wildling culture. It's part exposition, part setting up of Jon's struggles to maintain his vows. I expect Season 3 to end Jon's story with the attack on the South of Castle Black -- and that means a lot has to occur, meeting Mance Rayder, climbing the Wall, romance with Ygritte, leaving the Wildings, and then the battle. For those that think Jon never thought of breaking his vows, they will not like this (they will also be wrong). Someone also suggested that they may actually not show Qhorin and Jon talking about turning cloak until next season (as a flashback) to leave people guessing if he turned cloak. Again, they are setting up his dilemma now.
   

So what have we lost? The Wolf Dream. (And please, we have plenty of time to set up ADwD). I'll be with you if Jon really does turn cloak, but if not, has it really changed much? The conversations with Ygritte are true to the books -- they are just Book 3. And while many people like action, many of us prefer good character development and dialogue.

I really .agree with the first point. Among many reasons, one thing that hurts Robb-Jeyne is that its moving so fast, This despite the writers intorducing her at the earliest moment. Getting some of the Jon-Ygritte relationship going allows the writers to focus more on plot for next season as opposed to strict character building, which I seem to remember there being a ton of in Jon SOS chapters.

Also from what I can remember the book kind of put Jon in a situation where you could sort of say did he really have to kill Quorin, or even he could he kill Quorin in that situation? I think the show is going to make it so the decision a lot more black and white.

[HouseLancaster]

I think the sore point for a lot of people IS how well season 1 was apdapted, there was no reason for that not to continue. Not being uber word-for-word faithful but the clearly understood the important points of each storyline. BUT THIS SEASON It's as if the praise they got for such scenes as the Robert/Cersi conversation for example has gone to their heads.

For me - Tyrion, Arya and Theon all enjoyed their best arcs in Clash of Kings so it was important they get their storylines correct and as full as possible for this season, then other characters can take the spotlight next year. Jon Snow has gotten the right amount of screen time this year, but, only if they stick to the key points of his narrative. They done Tyrion justice but pherhaps bodged Theons with the kills of Bran and Rickon, - far too heavy handed, no one thinks they're dead. Ayra at Harrenhal, YES Tywin is great but there plenty of oppotunity to see him next season. They should have rolled the best bits of their 3 scenes together into one decent sized scene. Because of Tywins/Ayra's father/daughter relationship Harrenhal has lost all its terror (who's gonnna touch Tywins Lannisters cup bearer?) and all the power of Ayra surving the kitchens and using her 3 kills has been lost (and the second kill, and what lead up to it was imbasilic).

I think the sore point for a lot of people IS how well season 1 was adapted, there was no reason for that not to continue. It wasn’t uber word-for-word faithful but they clearly understood the important points of each storyline and the story as a whole. BUT THIS SEASON It’s as if the praise they got for such scenes as the Robert/Cersi conversation for example has gone to their heads.

For me - Tyrion, Arya and Theon all enjoyed their best arcs in Clash of Kings so it was important they get their storylines correct and as full as possible for this season, then other characters can take the spotlight next year. Jon Snow has gotten the right amount of screen time this year, but, only if they stick to the key points of his narrative. They’ve done Tyrion justice but perhaps bodged Theons with the kills of Bran and Rickon, - far too heavy handed, no one thinks they're dead. Ayra at Harrenhal, YES Tywin is great but there is plenty of opportunity to see him next season. They should have rolled the best bits of their 3 scenes together into one decent sized scene and let that be it for their interaction. Because of Tywins/Ayra's father/daughter relationship Harrenhal has lost all its terror (who's gonna touch Tywins Lannisters cup bearer?) and all the power of Ayra surviving the kitchens and using her 3 kills has been lost (and the second kill, and what lead up to it - was imbecilic).

Despite what I've said, I'm not ready to judge the season till its all played out and we’ll see where the whole thing goes. BUT just to address something that someone earlier in the thread said when asking ‘who cares if the details have changed - the main plot points are still there, even if the path leading there is a little different?’ Well it matters, because how will you feel if when they get to the next book, when the Storm of Swords storyline takes hold, and they change all the cool stuff there too... sure the characters may again end up in the correct place ready for the next book, where yet again perhaps the details are changed again in that season too.

It’s a story! The journey is just as important as the results. And I’m, to be honest, was one who was happy with most if not all of the changes in season 1 – the aging up, Roz scenes, etc – not a problem at all – it felt like, where possible, everything was there. That’s not been the case in some circumstances this time round.

[Arkash]

We could get a mention of the chain this episode, perhaps, maybe right in the beginning of episode 9. Like Pellaeon said, Martin wrote it, so he of all the writers will try to stay as close to his books as he possibly can.

That is utopic. GRRM has worked on TV, he knows how it works, if the producers or writers decided the chain could be written off, he'd agree with them and not put it.

But I'm quite sure they wont talk about it until the last moment in the Battle !

[Lannister_Lion]

Firstly I am a fan of the series of books as they were originally written.

Secondly, season 1 deserved to be applauded for being the best book to TV adaption.

When Season 2 bombs at the awards, can all the watchers stop saying how much better at writing D&D are than Martin? I'm sick of hearing that "they are doing a better job than the author! Whats the problem with changing this or that if the end result is the same?"

Ugh, honestly:

an Ironborn was baptised, not DROWNED!? Then SAILED off in a Galleon!!! WTF.

Jamie Lannister, who loves his family VERY much, kills his Coz!??? He is NEVER depicted as irredeemably evil in any of the books, yeah yeah he chucked Bran outta the window. People do crazy things when faced with loosing their lover, but splattering the brains of a boy that hero worshiped him over his cell floor? Nah, I aint buying that BS.

Arya Stark - trainee faceless assasin, killer of at least 3 men (and a couple of boys) and a nifty fighter on the walls of the holdfast is now unrecognizable as the character from the books (and Arya has one of the most harrowing yet triumphant storylines I have ever read)

W. T. F.

There are more, but these are the things that make me want to give D&D their own cleft bloody jaws.

Gah.

[mmp]

I'm not 100% satisfied with season 2, but when I think about it... book 2 was my least favorite. Season 2 is so far a better watch than book 2 was a read. HBO is making a lot out of some pretty dry material. Mellisandre is cool when she pops out the demon. Theon and Davos are cool. Everyone else is a bore (Dany, Jon, Catelyn). Tyrion will be cool if the Battle on the Blackwater is a lengthy sequence (is it the full episode? the episode spoiler suggests it is) and shows him charging through the fiery battlefield. Forget the golden chain, just put him on a horse and rally the troops Helm's Deep style.

Seasons 3 and 4 will be awesome because book 3 is awesome. Like book 1, book 3 has a lot of memorable scenes.

At least at the House of the Undying we might get a first mention of Rhaegar & prophecy. If they throw it all out then Dany's story arc this season will have been terribly unimportant, but that's book 2: not much happens for Dany relative to the other characters.

I'm glad they went to Iceland. There just isn't any mythicality in the acting alone.

[Khal-a-bunga]

How much has Jon's storyline really changed? From the preview for this episode, it looks like we'll be seeing Qhorin and Jon together again, and I'm sure they'll have dialogue together similar to what was in the books. The story for Jon this season, in my eyes, has very ably portrayed an inner struggle he's feeling about being a member of the Night's Watch.

The issue with Craster and the White Walker's led Jon to realize that Mormont knows what kind of man Craster is, which is important because it makes Jon question the integrity of their goal. Mormont knows Craster is a shit-heel who sacrifices his sons, but it's a necessary evil in his opinion. The expanded time with Ygritte further breaks down Jon's unquestioning loyalty, as she makes a lot of good points about the nature of freedom and the validity of the oath he decided to take.

I understand that you want more time with Qhorin and his men, but to what purpose? Ygritte remains integral to Jon's storyline going forward; Qhorin is a catalyst (although a wonderful character in his own rite) for that story to happen. It's more important for an audience to get a sense of her character than it is for them to spend more time with Qhorin, I'd say. And besides, we know for a fact that he'll be in at least two more episodes this season, so we should probably expect that he'll be further developed and that he'll still force Jon to kill him. In that case, the A remained the same, and the C remains the same, so all D&D have really done is ADAPT the B to work better as a television series. I just don't see how you can say they've made any massive, narrative altering changes to Jon's storyline (or anyone's, to be honest) when that's clearly not the case (not to mention there are still three episodes left this season).

I understand you're approaching this from the perspective of a purist, but even so, saying anything has been substantially changed to this point is pure hyperbole. I think I'll defer to David, Dan, Bryan Cogman, and - oh yeah - the author of the novels themselves, rather than worry about inconsequential details being changed or omitted or shuffled around.

[Lannister_Lion]

Why did Jon chase Ygritte if he was intending to let her go?

Unless you people that like Jons arc actually think he is that inept with a sword :ack:

The only reason I can see it was changed, like many of the deviations in season 2, was pure titillation.

Great. Well done HBO for missing the point completely.

[gogorath]

I think the sore point for a lot of people IS how well season 1 was apdapted, there was no reason for that not to continue. Not being uber word-for-word faithful but the clearly understood the important points of each storyline. BUT THIS SEASON It's as if the praise they got for such scenes as the Robert/Cersi conversation for example has gone to their heads.

Is there not? A Clash of Kings is a harder adaptation. Game of Thrones lent itself very well to 10 episodes. Clash added three major net locations (Stannis', Harrenhal & the Iron Islands). It added a ton of characters (Stannis, Melisandre, Davos, Yara/Asha, Balon, Xaro, Pyat Pree, Quaithe, Ygritte, Jeyne, Roose, Qhorin, Margaery) along with an increased role for Renly and Sandor (and Tywin, though that's an adaptation choice).

So the scope of the story -- already epic in scale -- just got much larger. Now factor in the Blackwater. The pre-production and production time of that! Spending an entire episode in one location!

I think it's very unfair to claim changes are due to the writers' egos. Why not try to see it their way before making such an accusation?

Now, this:

For me - Tyrion, Arya and Theon all enjoyed their best arcs in Clash of Kings so it was important they get their storylines correct and as full as possible for this season, then other characters can take the spotlight next year.

And this:

Jon Snow has gotten the right amount of screen time this year, but, only if they stick to the key points of his narrative. They done Tyrion justice but pherhaps bodged Theons with the kills of Bran and Rickon, - far too heavy handed, no one thinks they're dead. Ayra at Harrenhal, YES Tywin is great but there plenty of oppotunity to see him next season. They should have rolled the best bits of their 3 scenes together into one decent sized scene. Because of Tywins/Ayra's father/daughter relationship Harrenhal has lost all its terror (who's gonnna touch Tywins Lannisters cup bearer?) and all the power of Ayra surving the kitchens and using her 3 kills has been lost (and the second kill, and what lead up to it was imbasilic).

Those two statements are wildly inconsistent to me. Jon's story? Plot points have changed, but I bet in the end all we've lost is the Wolf Dream and what we've gained is more time with Ygritte, more background on why he might abandon his commitments. These things are vital to Jon Snow's journey from emo mini-Ned Stark to the man we see in ADwD.

You admit Tyrion has been done well (although I don't know how your request that we focus on these three people is consistent with a more faithful adaptation).

And Arya -- I still find her story to be about empowerment. Perhaps we're just seeing it differently, but I don't think she's particularly safe. Just the physical beatings of Weese being replaced by the constant fear of discovery. I suppose I could see your point of view -- except for the idea that what they did is imbecilic. I actually enjoyed that -- one, it makes sense as to how she wastes her kill and two, I don't mind a bit of humor. It's missing from too many dramas.

Well it matters, because how will you feel if when they get to the next book, when the Storm of Swords storyline takes hold, and they change all the cool stuff there too... sure the characters may again end up in the correct place ready for the next book, where yet again perhaps the details are changed again in that season too.

And this is what I don't get. What is the cool stuff you are referring to? Jon's storyline is going to be really close, just with a few things added. Arya -- so Weese isn't beating her. It's not like they removed Jaqen or something. So yes, I would mind if say, Dracarys! was completely different next year, but honestly, this is more like Daario Naaharis showing up at Astapor instead of Yunkai.

There's bound to be a lot more changes. But so far I haven't seen anything ruined, as people as wont to say. Character's motivations are still intact, even with differences in actions or how we see them. The story arcs are still there.

And frankly, while yours and my favorite scenes at times have changed a bit -- a line here, an element there -- most of the established "must-nail" sequences have been very good and pretty darn faithful.

(One last aside: I know quite a few watchers who are unsure about Bran and Rickon. I agree that I wouldn't have been so obvious. But while it was a bit heavy handed, it's also hard for me to anticipate the problems on the other end. If you don't telegraph it enough, on the other side, people are frustrated when they are revealed as not realistic.)

[SerMixalot]

I felt so guilty so ROFLing at this but it's just so funny. Found it on an imdb thread titled "Luwin pays the Iron Price"

http://cdn.wg.uproxx...012/05/nooo.gif

I felt so guilty so ROFLing at this but it's just so funny. Found it on an imdb thread titled "Luwin pays the Iron Price"

http://cdn.wg.uproxx...012/05/nooo.gif

lol

[gogorath]

Firstly I am a fan of the series of books as they were originally written.

Secondly, season 1 deserved to be applauded for being the best book to TV adaption.

When Season 2 bombs at the awards, can all the watchers stop saying how much better at writing D&D are than Martin? I'm sick of hearing that "they are doing a better job than the author! Whats the problem with changing this or that if the end result is the same?"

How do you even "bomb" at awards?

Ugh, honestly:

an Ironborn was baptised, not DROWNED!? Then SAILED off in a Galleon!!! WTF.

Theon was not drowned in the books; nor were any of the royal family. Only Aeron was, and very religious people. And this concept wasn't even introduced until Book 4, I think.

Book purists should know the book, no?

I don't know what to say if you think the style of boat is in any way core to story.

Jamie Lannister, who loves his family VERY much, kills his Coz!??? He is NEVER depicted as irredeemably evil in any of the books, yeah yeah he chucked Bran outta the window. People do crazy things when faced with loosing their lover, but splattering the brains of a boy that hero worshiped him over his cell floor? Nah, I aint buying that BS.

Please cite one instance where pre-goat Jaime demonstrates any love or even affection for any Lannister outside Tyrion and Cersei. Just one. He treats Cleos Frey with contempt, hardly the "Love" you seem to posit.

Arya Stark - trainee faceless assasin, killer of at least 3 men (and a couple of boys) and a nifty fighter on the walls of the holdfast is now unrecognizable as the character from the books (and Arya has one of the most harrowing yet triumphant storylines I have ever read)

I don't even get this. She unrecognizable? Smart, determined, bloodthirsty young girl trying in any way to take control of her own life. Unrecognizable?

Why did Jon chase Ygritte if he was intending to let her go?

Unless you people that like Jons arc actually think he is that inept with a sword :ack:

The only reason I can see it was changed, like many of the deviations in season 2, was pure titillation.

Great. Well done HBO for missing the point completely.

Oh, please, great one, what is the point of Jon's story arc? Please sum it up for us that apparently can't understand.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Why did Jon chase Ygritte if he was intending to let her go?

Unless you people that like Jons arc actually think he is that inept with a sword :ack:

The only reason I can see it was changed, like many of the deviations in season 2, was pure titillation.

Great. Well done HBO for missing the point completely.

Titillation? Please look up the definition of that word, then come back to this thread with something resembling a good point. Is it so hard to imagine that Jon missed on purpose, as in the books, but instead of Ygritte being grateful she runs off (presumably to tell the other Wildlings about the presence of the Night's Watch beyond the Wall), forcing Jon to give chase? Perhaps he was naïve to expect gratitude, but Jon's always been naïve, so not much of a stretch there. Perhaps Jon expected her to thank him for sparing her life by not alerting the Wildlings to their presence, but that's obviously not what happened. I just don't understand how some of you seem to lack the ability to connect the dots without things playing out exactly as in the book (for a different example, all the morons who truly thought that Dagmer = Reek).

[Kevin79]

You book purists are over reacting. In my opinion, all of the changes they have made have all been to further develop characters. If they adapted the novels without adding anything or changing anything, the TV series wouldn't be as good. The changes they are making have all been in the best interest of people that haven't read the books so they will better understand motivations of characters since they can't show us their thoughts like the novels can.

Also, anyone that has anything bad to say about the Tywin-Arya scenes is just wrong. There is no middle ground here, those scenes are awesome and the addition of Arya being Tywin's cup bearer has improved the hell out of her arc. She has already seen plenty of terrible things and she will see more. There is no need for her entire Harrenhal arc to be totally dark. This way we get to see more of Tywin, developing him for his huge role to play next season and we get to see two awesome characters interact that didn't get the chance in the book. No one should be complaining.

[iheartseverus]

This thread is about Episode 18. Episode 18. Not about how good/bad the over-all HBO adaptation is, or isn't . Can we get back to the topic at hand, peeps? Now, please.

[iheartseverus]

This thread is about Episode 18. Episode 18. Not about how good/bad the over-all HBO adaptation is, or isn't . Can we get back to the topic at hand, peeps? Now, please.

ON TOPIC. AND LETS KEEP IT ON TOPIC. So, will we see Jaqen actually change his 'face?' Could be fascinating. A Man turns away a bit, turns back, and... he's different. He's him, but he's not him. Ayra's reaction will be priceless, and as good as Maisie has been all along, she'll nail it. I'd think this would be something HBO would gladly dive into--the make-up department would be thrilled to take their skills to a whole new level. Can't wait!