[Book Spoilers] Jaime killing Cleos/Alton

[Stanmore]

enemy soldiers who were no threat to him at the time.......Ned wasn't dead yet, so the war didn't start yet with the starks.

The Starks may not have realised they were at war, but that didn't stop Tywin attacking the riverlands. The Starks had taken Tyrion prisoner so as far at the Lannisters were concerned war had been declared.

at least you admit he's a sociopath.

although i wouldnt think its a stretch for either to kill someone to get out of prison

I don't think that it's a stretch for a sociopath, I think it's a stretch for this specific sociopath. Gregor Clegane or Ramsey Bolton would have killed Alton without a second thought, Jaime is neither of those characters though. Every time he's killed he's done it for a reason. As i've explained before killing ALton was completely pointless. To say he's a psychopath and is therefore capable of anything really ignores the depth of his character

[Mulled Wino]

He has a reason to kill his cousin (that he doesnt care about). To get out of prison.

[Mulled Wino]

All of your explanations have been blown up. (arya, the weak ass "at war" one especially).

[Stanmore]

He has a reason to kill his cousin (that he doesnt care about). To get out of prison.

I've already explained why that argument doesn't hold water. Killing Alton didn't help him escape one bit. Even if attacking Alton was the only way to get the Karstark son inside the cell, there's no reason at all to beat him to death. It's brutality for the sake of brutality and therefore pointless.

Still, it makes an effective scene if you want to portray Jaime as a mindless killer...

[Terilien]

The problem is that this move compromises our freedom of interpretation, something that makes Jaime such a rich character.. If you listen to the inside the episode segment, David Benioff said they had him kill Alton because Jaime's true personality is that of a monster. That's taking something that was very open to interpretation for readers, and making it way way too definite. They went with one of many many possible interpretations, and are running with it. While his sociopathy may be Crystal clear to them, it's something I haven't quite worked out from his actions.

The worst part of it is: Was it too much for him to fake Alton's death? Really? Wasn't that an obvious option?

I'd also like to add that yes, Jaime being a complete sociopath *does* conflict with the books. A sociopath doesn't "go away inside" because of Aerys Targaryens atrocities, nor does he feel guilt because he can't protect Aery\s wife from rape.

[Patchface12]

After Troy, I guess I shouldn't be shocked that they make changes like this. This, along with forces McCann to underact are the most unforgivable changes they've made thus far

[Marcus Cicero]

I'm frustrated by D&D's comments because I'm inclined to defend the scene as in-keeping with book Jaime, but they go too far by calling him a 'monster' and ignoring any sort of nuance.

Before ASOS, Jaime is a narcissist who seems to get some joy out of killing. Of course, he usually kills for a reason, and he had one for Alton. Why kill instead of faking an illness or brawling? He felt that he had to create as disturbing a scene as possible. He's desperate, impulsive, and impatient. He saw his moment and acted. This same impulsiveness was seen in the Bran incident. Cersei later points out that they could've handled it differently. He could of at least talked to Bran. But he just reflexively pushes Bran out the window. Even if it was a matter of necessity, he doesn't really feel any remorse or regret about it. He's too wrapped up in his own self-importance.

The notion that Jaime started changing as soon as he lost at the Whispering Wood is an interesting one. However, even if it's true, the changes were too subtle to prevent this kind of behavior. In his first couple POV chapters in ASOS, he still comes across as somewhat of a narcissistic sociopath.

[Marjie Eilie Myatt]

Fine, change the scene with Jamie, he kills Alton, whatever. But Catelyn letting him go, now, is ridiculous. She doesn't know Bran & Rickon are dead, she promised Karstark that he would have his revenge on Jaime, Rob is coming back in the morning, she's not in charge; has she ever had a meaningful conversation with TV Tyrion that would lead her to believe he'll help let the girls out if Jaime is returned to him? (Joffrey's the king and he killed Ned against everybody's counsel.) She botched the whole kidnap-Tyrion thing.

I don't see how Brienne can handle Jaime on this trek by herself. I get the need to reduce/merge characters, change scenes, etc., for television, but I still think it's too hard to make a trek with a prisoner by yourself--trying to save him and look over your shoulder at him also the whole time---I mean, look what happened to Jon!

[zippypoodle]

I've already explained why that argument doesn't hold water. Killing Alton didn't help him escape one bit. Even if attacking Alton was the only way to get the Karstark son inside the cell, there's no reason at all to beat him to death. It's brutality for the sake of brutality and therefore pointless. Still, it makes an effective scene if you want to portray Jaime as a mindless killer...

No, it's brutality for the sake of escaping. Just like pushing Bran from the window was brutality for the sake of preventing Bran from talking. And ordering the death of Eddard's guards was brutality for the sake of punishing Eddard for Catelyn's capture of Tyrion. . And killing Aerys was brutality for no good reason at all by the time he did it--he had already killed the Hand of the King, so why not just let Aerys be taken into custody when the Lannister-Stark armies show up?

It's the standard MO for Jaime. He desires outcome A, and naturally turns to violence to achieve it because 1. that's what he's best at prior to the hand-chop and 2. he's too self-involved and impulisve to ever consider consequences (again, prior to the hand chop).

If you think having him kill Alton pushes him across the line as far as redemption possibilities goes, that's a matter of opinion and we simply disagree. If you think it's completely out of character for Jaime, you're simply wrong.

[SerMixalot]

No, it's brutality for the sake of escaping. Just like pushing Bran from the window was brutality for the sake of preventing Bran from talking. And ordering the death of Eddard's guards was brutality for the sake of punishing Eddard for Catelyn's capture of Tyrion. . And killing Aerys was brutality for no good reason at all by the time he did it--he had already killed the Hand of the King, so why not just let Aerys be taken into custody when the Lannister-Stark armies show up? It's the standard MO for Jaime. He desires outcome A, and naturally turns to violence to achieve it because 1. that's what he's best at prior to the hand-chop and 2. he's too self-involved and impulisve to ever consider consequences (again, prior to the hand chop). If you think having him kill Alton pushes him across the line as far as redemption possibilities goes, that's a matter of opinion and we simply disagree. If you think it's completely out of character for Jaime, you're simply wrong.

Then why didnt he kill brienne in the book, when she was swimming to the boat and he and an oar in his hands? All he had to do was bring the oar down on her head.

[SerMixalot]

I would argue his redemption had already started and he was barely aware of the changes, his self evaluation was in it infancy so his reflections were not involved, but clearly that was a choice old Jamie would not have made

[Stanmore]

No, it's brutality for the sake of escaping. Just like pushing Bran from the window was brutality for the sake of preventing Bran from talking. And ordering the death of Eddard's guards was brutality for the sake of punishing Eddard for Catelyn's capture of Tyrion. . And killing Aerys was brutality for no good reason at all by the time he did it--he had already killed the Hand of the King, so why not just let Aerys be taken into custody when the Lannister-Stark armies show up? It's the standard MO for Jaime. He desires outcome A, and naturally turns to violence to achieve it because 1. that's what he's best at prior to the hand-chop and 2. he's too self-involved and impulisve to ever consider consequences (again, prior to the hand chop). If you think having him kill Alton pushes him across the line as far as redemption possibilities goes, that's a matter of opinion and we simply disagree. If you think it's completely out of character for Jaime, you're simply wrong.

He tried to kill Bran in order to silence him. He Killed aerys to stop him burning down the city. He killed Ned's guards to get revenge for his brother. He killed his jailer in order to escape.

There's literally no reason to kill Alton. The escape doesn't rely on it. Alton isn't a threat to him, Alton hasn't wronged him in any way. It's a kill for the sake of a kill and thus not in keeping with Jaime's MO as i see it. Add on top of that that Alton is a Lannister, even if a very minor one, and it all becomes too hard to swallow.

[SerMixalot]

What is troubling is that the writers think Jamie is a monster. Gregor Clegane is a monster. Jamie is a very complex character and if the writers miss that point, well i am worried about the future of the series. Would a monster have given Brienne purpose in life or given her a sword reforged from Ned Stark's valyrian blade?

[Jayaris]

He tried to kill Bran in order to silence him. He Killed aerys to stop him burning down the city. He killed Ned's guards to get revenge for his brother. He killed his jailer in order to escape.

There's literally no reason to kill Alton. The escape doesn't rely on it. Alton isn't a threat to him, Alton hasn't wronged him in any way. It's a kill for the sake of a kill and thus not in keeping with Jaime's MO as i see it. Add on top of that that Alton is a Lannister, even if a very minor one, and it all becomes too hard to swallow.

His death is more believable if he died, the guard has a higher chance of coming in if he beats him to death. If they are both alive Jamie is either slowed down by Alton or Alton escapes on his own and notifies the camp that an escape has taken place when he is caught.

The escape is simpler and more effective with Alton dead.

[Stanmore]

His death is more believable if he died, the guard has a higher chance of coming in if he beats him to death. If they are both alive Jamie is either slowed down by Alton or Alton escapes on his own and notifies the camp that an escape has taken place when he is caught.

The escape is simpler and more effective with Alton dead.

Nonsense. If Alton is dead what reason does the jailer have to enter the cell? it makes sense for him to break up a fight between valuable prisoners, it makes no sense for him to enter the cell alone just to stare at a corpse. Where's the urgency in that?

Secondly if Jaime has no qualms in killing Alton in cold blood he certainly wouldn't have any issues with leaving him behind beaten and bloodied or letting Alton run off in one direction as a distraction while he sneaks off in another. . His absence is going to be discovered before too long anyway. His cell is in the middle of the camp, and he made plenty of noise in the escape.

At the end of the day Alton was an asset not a hinderence. The Jaime from the books would have realised that. He's not just some mad dog.

[icspotz]

Clearly Jaime is irredeemable after tossing Bran but imo it was unnecessary to resort to kinslaying to further establish his amorality especially with the emphasis on kinslaying being worse than kingslaying and familial ties being so important in this culture. Martin is at the height of his craft in presenting conflicted characters motivated by their background and personal experience. What separates GRRM's from that of other writers of the genre is the finely nuanced characters who are not defined as purely good or evil but share both components. It is more difficult to show the opposite side of Jamie as he begins to transition emotionally post amputation by having him yet again commit a heinous crime taking him further away from the character the author meant to portray. This somewhat damages his future dynamic with Brienne and Cersi as he begins to regret his actions which I hope is not altered by the HBO series. In contrast the added scene of Joffery and the prostitutes showing him as an utter psychopath is more in tune with his character.

[Le Cygne]

Jaime is not a monster.

[Katydid]

What is troubling is that the writers think Jamie is a monster. Gregor Clegane is a monster. Jamie is a very complex character and if the writers miss that point, well i am worried about the future of the series. Would a monster have given Brienne purpose in life or given her a sword reforged from Ned Stark's valyrian blade?

THANK YOU. You stated my fears precisely.

I'm clinging to the hope that they're calling current Jaime a monster, for the benefit of the non-book fans. Yes he's done all these horrible things, he's killed brutally and bangs his sister on a regular basis, but we haven't yet gotten into the "why"s of his choices and actions.

If they write Jaime as an irredeemable monster from S3 onward, post-Brienne, I'll have to give up on this show completely. And I'd mourn it. But I really, really want them to get the J/B relationship right, more than anything else in the series.

[David Selig]

Jaime tried to kill Bran, a 7 year old child and crippled him. Later on he tried to kill another child (Arya) and only pure luck prevented it. He had Ned's guards killed to "chasten" him. He never regretted or felt guilty for any of those actions. That's more than enough to qualify him as a monster in my book.

[Katydid]

Some readers look deeper; some don't. It's all good. :cool4: