[Book Spoilers] Nitpick without repercussion!

[Lexicdark]

...and it's like Disneyland here on the show. Not only did she get an awesome upgrade from nothing to Lord of Casterly Rock's cupbearer, but grandpa Tywin also treats her like a relative - feeds her, jokes with her, lets her backtalk and spill wine all over the table without being punished....it's a lot of fun at HBO Harrenhal.

Hahaha! I couldn't agree more. I think it is super wierd that she isn't super cafeful. I do appreciate that even though it has changed, she still has that edge to her. Doing her own thing, thinking she knows best, and not letting others mold her into what they want.

[kephv]

I'm not really liking Dany's storyline. Seems like a cheesy, unnecessary soap opera. And I don't like the changes to Jon or his storyline either. They've made him completely incompetent and stupid.

Jaime killing Alton I didn't mind, even though, as others have pointed out, killing him was completely unnecessary. I love every scene with Arya so far, even if it does push the limits of believability -- for one, why the hell is she still wearing her traveling rags? Surely her grandpa Tywin would've given her some nice new cupbearer threads by now?

They also completely blew the chance to have believable Rickon and Bran fake deaths. They should've given Bran another green dream where he sees them hanged, and just been a lot more subtle over all. It was just poorly handled as is.

[protar]

They killed off the Spice King?!!? WTF!!

[Jamie Lannister]

They killed off the Spice King?!!? WTF!!

I don't think you're allowed to talk shit to Dany in-verse and live. Qotho, Mago, the Spice King... what did these three heroes have in common?

[Ser Dermett Corbray]

They killed off the Spice King?!!? WTF!!

Ah yes, the obligatory "taking care of Family Business" scene to show that Pyat Pree and Xaro and two dudes not to be messed with.

Did enjoy Pree's "magic" though.

[teemo]

Yeah, the Spice King was the only part of Dany's storyline I was enjoying this season, so I knew they'd kill him.

[teemo]

They also completely blew the chance to have believable Rickon and Bran fake deaths. They should've given Bran another green dream where he sees them hanged, and just been a lot more subtle over all. It was just poorly handled as is.

This would have been so cool. Why aren't you writing the show? Granted, I was like 15 when I read ACOK for the first time, but I was totally fooled that they died, and was hoping that it would be like that on the show. Maybe they didn't want people to get all pissed off or upset about murdering children on television when they didn't really die. *shrug* It was a really lame way to handle a chilling storyline though.

[Mista C]

I liked the Jamie scene up until the murder/escape. Here is my problem with it: The Kingslayer is the most valuable prisoner in the Stark camp and he is even in his own stockade, which is being constantly monitored by several guards. Jamie starts violently smashing in the head of his cousin. Just minutes before, a guard walked by and told them to shut up because they were talking too loudly. But no one comes over, or sees Jamie bashing in his cousin's head. Then, once the guard does open the door to the stockade, he's by himself. Not with several other guards, (because this is the Kingslayer) but completely alone. Jamie then strangles him and again, not one other guard walks by while he is doing this. There probably are guards whose only job it is, is to sit and look at that stockade, but none of them are around at this point. Once he is strangled, Jamie then needs to find a key to unlock his shackles. With him being such a valuable prisoner, the key for his individual shackles would probably have been kept on the other side of the camp, but of course, the guard that came in to investigate has the key on him. Then, once Jamie is done taking his shackles off, he has to escape the camp. Let me repeat that: HE HAS TO ESCAPE THE CAMP THAT IS ROAMING WITH 15,000 NORTH MEN. His stockade was not at the edge of camp near the woods, it was probably right smack in the middle of the camp itself! You're telling me that he just snuck through the camp, around tents, and not ONE SINGLE NORTH MAN noticed him and said "Holy Shit, it's the Kingslayer". Poor, poor storytelling in my opinion. I was somewhat ok with it last night while I watched it, but today, now that I've had a chance to think about it, it stinks.

[Lord Ravenfrost]

I agree with most of what's being said on the thread here, that being said a couple of points I think are being blown out of proportion.

Firstly we'll start with the mountain. I think they found the best replacement possible with whatever resources they have. The body type needed to make The Mountain close to what he was in the book is virtually impossible to find in the real world unless you get a professional wrestler to play him. Being a tall person myself I have to say that being tall and built like a brick shit house doesn't happen normally. Genetically tall people are not predisposed to being very thick with muscles. People like The Mountain just don't exist in the real world in any kind of abundance.

Secondly I see people wondering where Stannis is. When the writers eliminated Storm's End as a setting they cut out any filler for his story. It makes perfect sense for him to be gone when he's been written out. What would they do as a replacement? Show him and Davos sharing counsel? Making battle plans? Idk I'm glad they haven't forced any unnecessary Stannis scenes on us and I'm perfectly fine with just seeing him suddenly appearing at the blackwater with his army.

Jon's story is being completely screwed over and it's making me sort of angry. Here's how I think it's gonna go down from here. Jon will be marched off to see Mance and at some point the half hand will be caught too. While those two are being held the half hand will tell Jon he will have to kill him soon and go over to the free folk. Jon will protest and want to die along side his brothers and the half hand will tell him how important it is to find out what Mance is doing, and how he will need to learn as much as he can before he returns to his brothers. While this still works in the end I think it's really stupid.

I really hated what they've done to Dany's story as well. She comes off as this stupid girl who is prone to temper tantrums, I never got that from her character in the books. They've made her too proud IMO and it's gonna be hard for folks to respect her later on when she really starts to show who she is as a person. IDK maybe it will be alright. I'm looking forward to her meeting Ser Barriston later and next season when she acquires her army in Astapor. I actually did like Xaro and Pree taking control of Qarth, it will make more sense to non-book people when Xaro shows up in Meereen to try and convince Dany to leave. Then when she doesn't he'll declare war on behalf of Qarth.

I've enjoyed Harrenhall a lot but if they don't have Tywin leave soon I'm gonna freak out. Also would it kill them to maybe mention more info about The Brotherhood Without Banners like maybe who's the leader and IDK maybe how many times he's been killed? Beric shouldn't be glossed over like he is and they've done so at every opportunity. Why? He was in the first season and now he's not even mentioned and it isn't like it would've cost any money to fit him into the dialog. I really wonder what the writers are thinking at times.

I also think they should've had Jaime escape with Alton rather than kill him. It looks like now it will be just Brienne and him which I guess works but I liked Cleos/Alton as comic relief.. I think the things the writers have done with Jaime otherwise is pretty awesome.I'm looking forward to him hurling insults at brienne all next season.

I think Bran's story may still work out even though nobody thinks they are dead. I think they will still emerge from the crypts and find a dying Luwin and perhaps the Reed's will show up as they're leaving the castle who knows.I find it difficult to believe that Bran will just prophetically dream he has to go beyond the wall, but I wouldn't put it past the writers to take even more shortcuts with the story.

Theon has been brilliant in every scene this season nothing to bitch about here.

Tyrion has been awesome too and Bronn is just as I had him pictured in the books.

They are making Cersie too damn soft too soon. She doesn't start acting this soft until she's broken by the faith and then paraded naked through King's Landing. I can see why the writers would want to humanize her, but they are way jumping the gun here. She doesn't even become a POV untill the fourth book. Can't she just be an evil bitch until then?

[Jayaris]

In terms of Qarth's security - Pyat was probably around for a long time before dragons came about (with considerably less magic). A chamber with no Guards and personal weaponry allowed is probably a safe set-up, bar a guy that can split off into a dozen people and slit everyone's throat. Which the Thirteen have no reason to believe he is actually capable of..

For the escape scene :

If Jamie brings him with him he is now slowing him down.

If Jamie allows him to escape on his own he is more likely to be captured trying to exit the camp than Jamie is, notifying the camp of Jamie's escape.

If Jamie leaves him alive and he is awake he will probably be killed.

If Jamie knocks him out he might not be killed.

Presumably the Jailor actually saw the beating, given his response time - If Jamie beats him too little the Guard reacts differently or he doesn't come in at all.

If he beats him within an inch of his life he's liable to die suffering over the course of the next few days.

That's why I don't have a problem with the decision itself, because there are a lot of things to consider and killing Alton is the cleanest strategy in terms of escaping.

So you might say that killing him was unnecessary, but it increased his odds of escape overall.

The only thing I thought was strange was the five second pause after he said he needed to die, I was almost expecting him to say "JUST JOKING, OH MAN I GOT YOU".

But, maybe he used that time to decide that killing him was in fact the best option.

The Tywin/Arya relationship was a bit contrived, I can see why he might want Arya to eat though. If she was planning to or already had poisoned his food her reaction might give it away or she might reconsider the option altogether.

My biggest problem with this episode was the Winterfell storyline,

As I understood it, they set the false trail and came back to Winterfell in cover of night. I don't see anyway that they can end up back at Winterfell and get in the crypts with no one noticing during the day-time.

The bodies didn't particularly look real, they were totally dehumanized and as others had said nobody believed it was Bran or Rickon.

Now that I think of it the whole idea is questionable, at least the Freys sewed Robb's head onto his wolf why does anyone not question the absence of the two wolves in the murder of the children.

[Faraday]

They also completely blew the chance to have believable Rickon and Bran fake deaths. They should've given Bran another green dream where he sees them hanged, and just been a lot more subtle over all. It was just poorly handled as is.

Eh, might have worked. I don't remember if I was convinced by the storyline in the books. I remember going 'WTF BRAN DEAD', but not if I fully bought it. I think if it's supposed to be a cliffhanger they handled it poorly, but I'm not entirely convinced it's not supposed to be obvious they're alive - which is a change but maybe not the worst thing ever.

Jon story changes don't bother me; I think it'll end up at the same place and if anything him spending time captured with the wildlings might make them believing his 'turncloak' a bit better. (Probably not; I enjoy John/Ygritte scenes though so can't complain)

[SerMixalot]

last week Tywin smiled, this week he chuckled, next week he will guffaw like Santa Clause on the Macy's Day Parade Float

[SerMixalot]

with cat drawing a sword she can either

a. put it away without doing anything, useless as JL is not afraid of anything at this point and a useless cliff hanger, not that I would be surprised by anything HBO does at this point

b. kill JL, not going to happen as JL is obviously integral in the ongoing story

c. cut him loose? Cut chains with a sword? Not likely

d. Cut off his hand. Cat will cut off his hand.

Cat will cut off his hand

just plain BOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[SerMixalot]

couple of positives from last night?

Cat's acting-outstanding

Theon;s story. See that storyline is the way to do an adaption. They have not changed significantly the main plot points (with the exception of Ser Rodrik) and when changes were made they were in character flowed. THeon, Luwin, Rodrik, all doing great job acting. The biggest changes were Osha sleeping with Theon (can live with that, though the why didnt shee kill Theon when she had the chance, well livable) and Ser Rodrik getting whacked by theon instead of Ramsey, actually works in this way cause we get to see the death of a major secondary character.

If cleftjaw is Ramsey I will be unhappy.

Theons story is how adaption SHOULD work, the rest is rewrting a new story, which I am against. The writers have an obligation to the work of art that GRRM created.

[Stanmore]

Theons story is how adaption SHOULD work, the rest is rewrting a new story, which I am against. The writers have an obligation to the work of art that GRRM created.

I agree I've been really happy with Theon's story. I miss Reek, but i feel they've brought out a lot of the key conflicts in his character really well. I actually felt quite sympathetic to Theon reading the book and i'm glad they've expanded on that side of him.

But as for the rest. I'd say about 30% of that last episode was true to the books the remainder was pure invention. I realise adapting a series this complex to television is not an easy task, but there's a difference between altering things so that they work on TV and deciding that you can write a better story than the original author.

[SerMixalot]

coulldnt they throw in a jamie wench remark?

[teemo]

I know I bashed the "Cleftjaw is Ramsay theory" endlessly last week, but did anyone see that weird glance he gave Theon? I really hope that's not what's going on here.

I realise adapting a series this complex to television is not an easy task, but there's a difference between altering things so that they work on TV and deciding that you can write a better story than the original author.

I think it's pretty obvious that D&D think they are the more creative writers now. I understand there's a massive difference between writing a book and a show, but some things you can tell they've changed just to be cute, not to help make it a better/more likable/more convincing adaptation.

There were plenty of positives. Theon's story is going along nicely, the acting is really tremendous on all levels with practically everyone, Jaime was funny and spot-on with his remarks on Brienne, Gwendoline continues to amaze me...she is so perfect as Brienne. Not only does she nail Brienne's whole awkwardness, she just looks like her, acts like her, she is her. I really applaud her on her whole performance. Speaking of good acting, I miss Varys.

Hodor got a few Hodors in there. The person I was watching it with finally figured out that it's the only word he knows. Hah. Sandor and Sansa got a scene that was fairly true to the books, Ygritte made all of my friends laugh, which is needed in a dark show.

[SerMixalot]

couldnt they throw in jamie calling brienne wench?

[SerMixalot]

they'll probably have the boys hiding near the farm and not back at the castle, except for the noticing of missing swords, I dont recall the swords having any play in the story not sure how they will survive in the north without meera and her spear but....

[Jolene Brown]

I hate the Jaime killing Alton thing, but I also am bothered by the way they're re-writing the Karstark thing. Why not just have a confrontation between Karstark and Jaime, where he's like "when we captured you, you killed my 2 sons! I will have my revenge" and Jaime is unsurprisingly unremoreseful and reminds him that that is what happens in war. Cat breaks it up and Karstark is mad at her and seething with his men. Then let Jaime have his moving conversation with Alton, use him as a decoy or in some way to be able to escape himself while leaving Alton behind to face the unpleasant music. He is re-captured, Cat lets him go with Brienne, Karstark takes his rage out on Alton and murders him and maybe some other Lannister prisoners. Boom.

All the major plot elements, same amount of time, and keeps the important element that Karstark is being hugely unreasonable. Murdering a prisoner because your son died IN BATTLE is really out of keeping with the moral code of Westeros, where in this situation, his anger makes a bit more sense. I was spoiled for so much of the books when I read them, but I wasn't spoiled for the deaths of Tion Frey and Willem (?) Lannister, and I found that one of the most powerful moments in the books. Just totally totally shocking. It left Robb in such a bad position. I feel like they could have kept most of that dynamic and instead threw it away for a sort of cliched escape. Robb had to punish him, even while understanding his actions, because what he did was straight-up wrong. What Karstark did was simply unreasonable. I also really liked that although Robb did end up being noble (although I was sort of excited when I thought he was going to let Karstark get away with it), it showed you that the men around him were not all such great dudes all the time. I like how in the books you see a gradually muddying of the waters - the Starks do share some responsibility for starting a war which causes an intense amount of suffering all over Westeros. This was the start of that for me and I think they should have kept it as close to the books as possible because it is so important.