[Book Spoilers] Dagmer and...

[SerMixalot]

APropos of little, Theon killed B &R, partially because he knew it was the one thing his father would have approved of. So in a small way Dagmar echos Balon

[Mulled Wino]

She sank the Titanic I think

Movie or real thing?

[SerMixalot]

Both in the movie she stood on the bow and then ran to the stern causing the ship to turn over

in real life, it was the Blue Rose of the Wall that broke when the Horn of Loud Booms was blown creating an Iceberg that sailed down the nameless sea where the Titanic ran into it.

Perhaps Billy Zane will play Victarion

[Mulled Wino]

Both in the movie she stood on the bow and then ran to the stern causing the ship to turn over

in real life, it was the Blue Rose of the Wall that broke when the Horn of Loud Booms was blown creating an Iceberg that sailed down the nameless sea where the Titanic ran into it.

Perhaps Billy Zane will play Victarion

she sank the movie faster IMO.

Billy Zane would have been a perfect Xaro Ducksauce if they would have stuck to the book description.

[Isabella Stark]

This guy argues Dagmar=Ramsey.

http://www.tvequals.com/2012/05/14/game-of-thrones-a-man-without-honor-review/

I sort of like the idea, because I really enjoyed Ramsey's switcharoo in the books and there really does seem to be something more to Dagmar.

But I don't like it because (1) the actor seems to old to be Roose's son; and (2) it's not satisfactory that Ramsey would have established himself at Pyke early enough to pull this off.

It also would suggest that Roose decided to betray Robb very early on; whereas I've always thought Roose was onboard with Robb as long as Robb was successful, and only decided to betray him when it began to appear that Robb would not succeed.

[White Harbors Wrath]

I like how he argues that his version would be "cooler". It's actually just lame, and I expect better of this show than Sons of Anarchy style "gotcha!" moments, even w/ all the other changes.

[The Warlock Mooreflo]

Honestly, I can see this happen & think it could work.

If I remember correctly we dont know too much about Ramsey's mother other then she was a millers wife & Roose decided to do the banned tradition of the "First Night'

Have they no Mills in Pyke? Yes it would be another change from the books but really inconsequential to the main story.

Lets also not forget that Roose was with Robb when he decided to send Theon to Pyke.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Actually Theon suggested it when they were alone after his bannermen left. Then Robb justified it to his mother...I don't remember Roose being anywhere near them.

[The Warlock Mooreflo]

I didnt mean literally in the room, moreso geographically which would lead me to believe that Roose was in-the-know.

[White Harbors Wrath]

Oivey.

[Isabella Stark]

I keep thinking about this theory (rather than working).

I think the idea is that when Robb sent Theon to Pyke, Roose agreed with Cat's assessment that Theon was not trustworthy. (Roose wasn't necessarily present when the decision was made; Theon being sent to Pyke is the sort of thing that would be generally known to Robb's commanders.) So Roose sent Ramsey over to Pyke to keep an eye on Theon and try to capitalize on the situation.

I have found the show's treatment of Dagmar kind of weird.

- We haven't seen him interact with any other Ironborn.

- I think book-Theon knew Dagmar from childhood, but tv-Theon did not already know Dagmar. Pointless change? or was there a reason?

- Unlike the other Ironborn, Dagmar seems awfully eager to help and advise Theon. If they had a relationship that dated back to Theon's childhood, as in the books, that kind of makes sense. But what is tv-Dagmar's motivation?

- Dagmar gets these lingering close-ups after each piece of evil advice.

I'm still on the fence about this theory, but I liked the way Ramsey snuck into the story, so I'd love for the show to be able to pull that off succesfully.

[Rob Snow]

I'm sorry, but Dagmer = Ramsay is one of the worst theories of all time.

Just because a character has taken over some parts of a book character's role does not mean they are the same character. People need to realize that the tv show and the books are separate entities. If Ramsay even appears next season, he will be a shell of the character we all know and hate from the books, and there most certainly won't be a Theon ADwD storyline in later seasons (no Jeyne Poole + no Wyman Manderly + the idea that they can tell Alfie Allen to take a few years off = no Theon story).

I agree with the first part of your post, but as far as Alfie Allen not returning to play Reek/Theon in the ADwD Storyline, I don't think it's a done deal

Other HBO series (most prominiently the Wire) placed popular characters on hiatus for a season or more at a time, and brought them back as the plot called for them.

If D & D are as smart as I think they are, they see the benefit in having a fine actor like Allen breath life into one of the most intriguing characters in the ASOIAF universe and do whatever it takes to retain his services.

[I'll pay the iron price]

I'm wondering if Asha (Yara) will turn up an berate her brother for his actions and refuse to give him many (if any) men.

Perhaps she'll ask Dagmer to come with her and he'll initially refuse.

However when Ramsay turns up he'll change his mind and let Ramsay in saying "this is nowt to do with me - that Theon is a mad bugger" and leg it

Just a thought

[Jayaris]

I keep thinking about this theory (rather than working).

I think the idea is that when Robb sent Theon to Pyke, Roose agreed with Cat's assessment that Theon was not trustworthy. (Roose wasn't necessarily present when the decision was made; Theon being sent to Pyke is the sort of thing that would be generally known to Robb's commanders.) So Roose sent Ramsey over to Pyke to keep an eye on Theon and try to capitalize on the situation.

I have found the show's treatment of Dagmar kind of weird.

- We haven't seen him interact with any other Ironborn.

- I think book-Theon knew Dagmar from childhood, but tv-Theon did not already know Dagmar. Pointless change? or was there a reason?

- Unlike the other Ironborn, Dagmar seems awfully eager to help and advise Theon. If they had a relationship that dated back to Theon's childhood, as in the books, that kind of makes sense. But what is tv-Dagmar's motivation?

- Dagmar gets these lingering close-ups after each piece of evil advice.

I'm still on the fence about this theory, but I liked the way Ramsey snuck into the story, so I'd love for the show to be able to pull that off succesfully.

I honestly think people are at the point where they're just looking for possible 'character combinations' everywhere.

It would be a massive liability for Roose to send his only son to the Ironborn Islands, according to the story no messages were getting in or out of the Iron Islands while Balon was preparing his invasion, I find it unlikely that an unknown ship is allowed to land and a random man is join service in the naval forces.

How does Dagmer keep in contact with his father? Is there a complex drop-off communication system, such a thing would require weeks or months of planning.

Roose strikes me as a sensible man, not the kind of man to send his only son/stand-by Northern military leader off on some spy mission on off-chance that it helps him out. He has no way of knowing Dagmer's assignment beforehand or even the extent of Balon's plan.

Dagmer has definitely taken on some of the initial role of Ramsay, to give a more accurate representation of Theon's character in terms of decision making.

The other reason I think it is unlikely that HBO would opt for this even if they wanted to create this ridiculous back-story is the cost.

It's cheaper for them to hire a supporting character such as Dagmer for a season.

Than is for it to be Ramsay Bolton and have him paid for Season 2 as one of the more important characters.

And doesn't really add anything to the story beyond a boat-load of questions.

Edit : It's clear the real purpose of Dagmer is that he was a faceless man and his mission on the Iron Islands was to sabotage the bridge that Balon later dies on. And he's now off to assassinate someone else after he's done messing about with Theon..

[dreamcatcher]

Dagmer looks way younger than Roose to me. Like 15 years younger, at least.

[Michaelj]

Dagmer looks way younger than Roose to me. Like 15 years younger, at least.

Agreed. I was looking at the pictures and despite Roose being younger he looks about 55, while Dagmer looks early 30s to me.

[Jon Dragonskin]

Maybe it will be like this... someone will siege Winterfell and the season will and with Theon sending Dagmer to search for help... Then when he comes back he turned his cloak and will do the same that Ramsay does in the book, aid Theon then put the castle to the sword....

[Seekrit Targaryen]

Ramsay and Dagmer are both time-travelling Faceless Man Arya Stark, who is also Syrio Forell and Jaqen H'gar.

[Michaelj]

Maybe it will be like this... someone will siege Winterfell and the season will and with Theon sending Dagmer to search for help... Then when he comes back he turned his cloak and will do the same that Ramsay does in the book, aid Theon then put the castle to the sword....

Or maybe hes already turned his cloak? Otherwise is he generally trying to be helpful towards Theon?

[SerMixalot]

there reall y are no clues in the scene introducing dagmar, but it seems a 1st mate would be well known and experienced on the iron isles