The kinslayer is accursed in the eyes of gods and men. (Book spoilers)

[Stanmore]

here's another one that hasn't read the books. jamie doesn't give a shit about his kids. so the rest of your post is void

him not caring about his kids also is a bit sociopathic.

He's obviously a sociapath but there are degrees of sociopathy.

Gregor Clegane grievously disfigured his younger brother because he was playing with his toy. Are you telling me that if they'd taken that story and moved it to Jaime it wouldn't have changed his character? Just because Jaime has done bad things in the past without much remorse doesn't mean that he's capable of any evil act the show runners wish to write for him.

He can't keep killing people for trivial reasons if his redemption arc is to have any chance of working on the show.

[mcb]

Maybe I just dreamed it, but didn't jamie himself say that he is a bad prisoner? He no longer wanted to be a prisoner?

Sorry, what? "I don't like it here, so I'll kill my cousin"?

It's perfectly OK, even expected, for a prisoner of war to try to escape. It isn't OK, however, to murder a fellow POW just to create a diversion.

you don't think maybe jamie was worried that something in the war could happen that might cause his death or torture that he had no control over? that tend to happen in wars

Let's see. Some vague, imaginary danger some time in the future (if ever) versus a dead cousin, for real and right now. Yup, the murder was certainly justified.

[Mad Queen]

Both sides of this discussion have great arguments. It's getting harder for me to decide if book Jaime would or not kill a cousin brutally and needlessly like that to escape, though escaping might have called for desperate acts at that point and in those conditions. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I'm still leaning towards he wouldn't. The whole thing feels more like something Gregor Clegane would do. I could also accept the Hound doing that, who isn't a psychopath either, just a very brutal soldier. Jaime killing Arya for Cersei would be no worse than Sandor killing Mycah on Cersei's orders. One loves the queen, the other is a vassal sworn to obey her. All of these people (Jaime, Sandor, Arya) aren't really psychopaths. I think it's one of Martin's points that they turned into killers because of what happened to them, otherwise they would be okay, incest aside. Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Snow and the like, on the other hand, seem to be true psychopaths, unless there is more to their stories than Martin has let us know, of course.

[Mulled Wino]

He's obviously a sociapath but there are degrees of sociopathy.

Gregor Clegane grievously disfigured his younger brother because he was playing with his toy. Are you telling me that if they'd taken that story and moved it to Jaime it wouldn't have changed his character? Just because Jaime has done bad things in the past without much remorse doesn't mean that he's capable of any evil act the show runners wish to write for him.

He can't keep killing people for trivial reasons if his redemption arc is to have any chance of working on the show.

well, it certainly makes it believable, don't see why killing someone to try and escape from prison is such a far stretch. he doesn't give a shit about his cousin in the books, why would he on the TV show?

i dopn't think they have any need for his "redemtion arc" on the tv show, there's plenty other fish to fry. i think his redemption is more of him becoming a softie because he can't fight anymore.

[Mulled Wino]

Sorry, what? "I don't like it here, so I'll kill my cousin"?

his cousin he doesn't give a damn about in the book, why are you acting like this is some cherished family member?

I think it sounds lets psycho than "I don't want anyone to find out about me screwing my sister, so I'll just kill the boy son of the king's best friend, without even considering other options"

It's perfectly OK, even expected, for a prisoner of war to try to escape. It isn't OK, however, to murder a fellow POW just to create a diversion.

since when? i think the rules of killing are somewhat different in westeros. fact: killing his cousin got him out of prison and on the run. since when is jamie ever bound to whatever code you derived the theory in the bold from?

if he'd kill neds household guard, there's no reason its a big stretch to kill another prisoner for his freedom.

Let's see. Some vague, imaginary danger some time in the future (if ever) versus a dead cousin, for real and right now. Yup, the murder was certainly justified.

dead cousin he doesn't care about. he despises being a prisoner, enough to kill another prisoner to escape. I'm not arguing its justified, im arguing that its not out of character or some gigantic, unfathomable stretch by the show's creators. if you didn't just jump in on one post, you would see that.

[Mulled Wino]

Both sides of this discussion have great arguments. It's getting harder for me to decide if book Jaime would or not kill a cousin brutally and needlessly like that to escape, though escaping might have called for desperate acts at that point and in those conditions. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I'm still leaning towards he wouldn't. The whole thing feels more like something Gregor Clegane would do. I could also accept The Hound doing that, who isn't a psychopath either, just a very brutal soldier. Jaime killing Arya for Cersei would be no worse than Sandor killing Mycah on Cersei's orders. One loves the queen, the other is a vassal sworn to obey her. All of these people (Jaime, Sandor, Arya) aren't really psychopaths. I think it's one of Martin's points that they turned into killers because of what happened to them, otherwise they would be okay, incest aside. Gregor Clegane, Ramsay Snow and the like, on the other hand, seem to be true psychopaths, unless there is more to their stories than Martin has let us know, of course.

its not needlessly, he needed to escape.

psychopaths stand out because they lack remorse, lack empathy, and have very shallow emotions. CLEARLY, by this point in the series, Jamie exhibits those 3 personality traits, those are 3 perfect ways to describe him actually.

I don't know if I wrote it in this thread or not, but I love this scene in the context of the TV show. Jamie is truly someone to be feared on the show IMO and he really drives the point home with this escape.

[SerMixalot]

The acts in the book that demonstrate JL viciousness and lack of honor or morals were either to protect others or for self preservation. Killing Cleo does not meet either of these criteria.

JL's motivations go directly to his character and how is or should be perceived.

killing someone to protect oneself from a threat is one thing

Killing someone to potentially aid in escape is another.

They just are. And that is why his killing Cleo is out of character.

As an aside, TV Jamie had no reason pre killing Cleo to think his life was in jeopardy, he was a high valued prisoner. Even in the book, after his escape, despite being put in the dark dungeon, he was still not directly threatened with death, Robb killed Karstark to prevent that.

So killing Cleo to escape makes even less sense

[SerMixalot]

its not needlessly, he needed to escape.

psychopaths stand out because they lack remorse, lack empathy, and have very shallow emotions. CLEARLY, by this point in the series, Jamie exhibits those 3 personality traits, those are 3 perfect ways to describe him actually.

I don't know if I wrote it in this thread or not, but I love this scene in the context of the TV show. Jamie is truly someone to be feared on the show IMO and he really drives the point home with this escape.

Actually I think BOOK Jamie is not a psychopath. If he were how do you explain his killing of the Mad King? A psycopath wouldnt have cared.

[Stanmore]

well, it certainly makes it believable, don't see why killing someone to try and escape from prison is such a far stretch. he doesn't give a shit about his cousin in the books, why would he on the TV show?

i dopn't think they have any need for his "redemtion arc" on the tv show, there's plenty other fish to fry. i think his redemption is more of him becoming a softie because he can't fight anymore.

There's a difference between his disdain for Cleos and his cold blooded murder of Alton. Jaime's Redemption is a major turning point in his character. If the show runners chose to ignore it in favour of carrying on the portrayal of Jaime as cartoon villain then that's their choice, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an improvement to his arc or that it makes him a more complex character.

[Mulled Wino]

Actually I think BOOK Jamie is not a psychopath. If he were how do you explain his killing of the Mad King? A psycopath wouldnt have cared.

he didn't lose sleep over it, just his nickname that it unfairly earned him.

not feeling remorse is more of a sociopathic display than the act of killing.

[David Selig]

The acts in the book that demonstrate JL viciousness and lack of honor or morals were either to protect others or for self preservation.

What about when he was searching for Arya on the Trident after Nymeria bit Joffrey, intending to kill or at least maim her? Who was he protecting with this?

How about the killing of Ned's guards in KL? Who was this action meant to protect? If anything, it endangered Tyrion more.

[Mulled Wino]

The acts in the book that demonstrate JL viciousness and lack of honor or morals were either to protect others or for self preservation. Killing Cleo does not meet either of these criteria.

so how does the killing of ned's household guard fit into this then? the altercation was already over and there was no threat to jamie or "others"

JL's motivations go directly to his character and how is or should be perceived.

right, his only motivations are killing an opponent and carrying on his love affair with his twin sister. so he was doing neither in the cell.......and please remind me when in GOT or ACoK that we get any iota of an indication that Jamie Lannister gives two shits about anything other than himself and HIS comforts. which is an even better argument as to why hew would kill "cousin cletus"

killing someone to protect oneself from a threat is one thing

Killing someone to potentially aid in escape is another.

They just are. And that is why his killing Cleo is out of character.

doesn't mean that it's a big jump to go from one type of killing to another...i mean from everything I read about killing it seems that it gets easier and easier as you kill more. especially for someone who has ZERO REMORSE

As an aside, TV Jamie had no reason pre killing Cleo to think his life was in jeopardy, he was a high valued prisoner. Even in the book, after his escape, despite being put in the dark dungeon, he was still not directly threatened with death, Robb killed Karstark to prevent that.

perhaps, but jamie also thought cat was going to kill him, remember him thinking the wine was poisoned?

So killing Cleo to escape makes even less sense

it doesn't make sense maybe maybe maybe if we were talking about 1 handed jamie, certainly does make sense for CoK Jamie

[Mulled Wino]

There's a difference between his disdain for Cleos and his cold blooded murder of Alton. Jaime's Redemption is a major turning point in his character. If the show runners chose to ignore it in favour of carrying on the portrayal of Jaime as cartoon villain then that's their choice, but I'm not going to pretend that it's an improvement to his arc or that it makes him a more complex character.

as soon as someone presents an instance of jamie caring about anyone but himself in the first two books, this argument about it being against jamie's character might formulate into making some sense.

and besides, i don't even see how this one event completely blows his chance for a redemption arc? that's even more laughable than saying this killing of alton is an unbelievable stretch for jamie's character

[zippypoodle]

Yes. He never did anything close to that bad in the books. Also, the fact that he didn't even seem shaken by it makes him seem like a complete sociopath. The book Jaime was at least capable of feeling guilt.

Yes, but he really didn't exercise that capability until after the hand-chop. He killed Aerys, and got spit on for it by people like the ever-so-noble Ned Stark. At that point, he pretty much decided "fuck everyone, I'm doing what I want since you hate me anyway". So he threw himself into being the best fighter ever and into Cersei because she was essentially the female version of himself. Only after he lost his hand and therefore his reason for existing post-Aerys-killing was he forced to reevalute. He didn't so much fall out of love with Cersei as he did fall out of love with himself--which meant he no longer wanted the female version of himself.

[zippypoodle]

So killing Cleo to escape makes even less sense

CleoS. If you're going to be stubborn and refuse to just call him Alton, at least get the book name right. Cleos.

[Maggie the Cat]

I've read the books and i seriously couldn't find ANY redemption in Jaime until his journey with Brienne. I find his actions in this episode completely in keeping with my impression until said time spent with Brienne, which i believe is actually in ASoS. Keep in mind that having read the books through to aDwD we now know much more about Jaime and his character and motivations. But at this point in aCoK we didn't. Sometimes it's hard to reconcile that

[Iotun]

The below is a copy of what I said in the other thread on the exact same subject:

I generally don't complain, and don't mind the changes at all, even welcome them. I think in many ways the show is surpassing the book. But I disliked this move a lot - not just because it moves Jaime away from the character of the books, and makes his redemption more difficult to accept, but also because it moves Jaime away from the character OF THE SHOW as he's been introduced up to now.

Firstly, do I think that Jaime is above kinslaying, in either book or show? No. Tyrion in the books is pretty confident that Jaime will kill Lancel when he returns, and Tyrion as we know is a pretty good judge of character. He makes the same threat to Lancel in the show, and it must be a believable one given that its succesful at intimidating him.

The problem is not that Jaime is above killing family members, but in the way that he killed him. Not just the book, but the SHOW also, has introduced Jaime as a man who is ruthless, and does not mind killing his enemies, but that at the same time he is a man who doesn't play games, and has his own personal sense of honour in that when he kills somebody, he wants it to be a 'clean' death, in a face-to-face battle. This is a man who by his own admission, and as his father successfully judges, in the show, hates the fact that he is being called a kinglsayer for stabbing the mad king "in the back". This is a man who knocks out own of his men for stabbing Ned Stark in the foot and preventing it from being a 'clean' fight. This is the man who by his own admission doesn't want to be part of the game, whom his sister admits to never taking it seriously. This is the man who when Catelyn confronts him about what happened to Bran, comes out and straight tells her that he pushed him off a window because he wanted him to die. Yes he pushes Bran off to his death, but that is an act of the moment because he has to protect the other defining feature of his character - i.e. his love for Cercei.

If we allow ourselves to go to the book, Jaime, when managing to get a sword, is more than willing to fight Brienne with the intend to kill, but refuses to kill her sneakily with his oar, while she is swimming in the river.

I would not mind if he killed his cousin in a scene where, say, he is escaping, and his cousin, terrified, stands in his way, pulls a sword out, and tells him 'Cousin, this is madness!'. But what Jaime does is emotionally manipulate his cousin, play a game with him, lead him to trust him, and then kills him sneakily in an underhanded, completely unfair, and dishonorable way. That is NOT something that the character the SHOW introduced would do. In this regard the show is inconsistent with itself not just the book. What makes it even worse is that there's a thousand different ways that an escape attempt could have been thought of, and a thousand different ways for Jaime to kill his cousin in a more 'clean' way, if that was desirable. But the show went with the method that was the most dishonorable, apparently for shock value, and without much concern for internal consistency.

[SerMixalot]

Weird that they would claim Cleo(sic) is a distant relative, it was established that he is the son of the fat lady lannister (and JL makes it clear that is the only fat lannister), and the only fat lannister is Tywins sister, which makes cleo (sic) Jamies cousin. Certainly not a distant relative, esp. since fat lanniser lives in the west.

Seemed weird that part of the conversation

[Colah02]

If Jaime had killed Cleos, it would be kinslaying. But from what I understand, Alton was more distantly related? In which case, he is no more a kinslayer than Robert was for killing Rhaegar IMO.

Regarding whether book Jaime would of done the same in that situation, I think at that point he would of. He seemed to slowly change once he had sworn them vows to Cat (hence why I don't see the situation where he had a chance to kill Brienne as comparable).

[protar]

Weird that they would claim Cleo(sic) is a distant relative, it was established that he is the son of the fat lady lannister (and JL makes it clear that is the only fat lannister), and the only fat lannister is Tywins sister, which makes cleo (sic) Jamies cousin. Certainly not a distant relative, esp. since fat lanniser lives in the west.

Seemed weird that part of the conversation

What I got from that exchange was that Alton wasn't Genna's son as in the books. When Alton defends his mum's weight gain, Jaime's like "no there's only one fat lady lannister" which I took to mean "if you're not certain it's her than she's not fat enough to be fat lady lannister." I thought it was a subtle nod to book readers that Alton's relationship to Jaime in the show isn't the same as Cleos' relation to Jaime in the books.