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Possible Jon POV in the Land of Always Winter


ledlevee

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I think regardless of how Jon "reappears," he's not going to be the same as he was before. GRRM didn't have the Night's Watch folks stab him for no reason. He's not just going to brush himself off and then take out the bad guys. That's not how GRRM works and if you're expecting that, I'm surprised you're still reading these novels at this point. Jon will probably come back as either Ghost, resurrected by Melisandre, or as a wight. Of these, I can't stand the Melisandre idea because it's in danger of being overdone at this point with Dondarrion and Cat already coming back this way. I personally think him warging into ghost is most likely. And somebody, possibly Delorous Edd, will take Jon's body and but it in the ice cave or whatever in the Wall where the other frozen bodies are. I think he'll eventually warg back into his body, but it won't be the same as it was before. Resurrection in GRRM's novels always seems to have lasting changes.

However, until he wargs back into his body, I think it could become a wight at some point. Then when he wargs into it, perhaps he'll overcome whatever it is the Others do to make the body a wight and he'll be back to being Jon, at least for the most part.

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Thats so ridiculous. I mean I'm not even sure why people think this is a possiblity.

He's either going to be dead or he'll survive thanks to Melisandre. Mayhaps she revives him (which I wouldn't like) or maybe he's very wounded and hurt and she somehow saves him using her magical powers (in which case I can't hate the whore anymore for what she did to Renly).

But the idea that GRRM is going to have Jon Snow become a wight or end up in Ghost permanently is absolutely ludicrous and that's where I stop reading.

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As ever on the Jon as a Wight business I recommend re-reading the Varamyr prologue wherein it is explained that when real death occurs (as distinct from the death of a third party while warged into it) the warg concerned can take up residence in his or her primary host - in Jon's case Ghost - but once there is stuck and can't warg out again since it is only a host. Nor can Jon return to his own body since it is dead and likely to stay that way - his spirit no longer being inside it to be awakened as a wight by either Ice or Fire magic.

I'm confident that there will turn out to be a cunning way of getting him out of Ghost, but it certainly won't be as simple as Mel kissing his body better.

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As ever on the Jon as a Wight business I recommend re-reading the Varamyr prologue wherein it is explained that when real death occurs (as distinct from the death of a third party while warged into it) the warg concerned can take up residence in his or her primary host - in Jon's case Ghost - but once there is stuck and can't warg out again since it is only a host. Nor can Jon return to his own body since it is dead and likely to stay that way - his spirit no longer being inside it to be awakened as a wight by either Ice or Fire magic. I'm confident that there will turn out to be a cunning way of getting him out of Ghost, but it certainly won't be as simple as Mel kissing his body better.

This is true. I was actually considering that, too, though who knows if that's a definite rule, or if he just said that because it hasn't been done YET. However, I'm with you on the Mel thing. If she raises Jon from the dead or "kisses him better," I'll see it as a cop-out and be highly disappointed. That would be poor writing IMHO. You can't just bring somebody back to life every time you kill a beloved character, especially not in the same way every time. It has to be a little more interesting than that.

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As ever on the Jon as a Wight business I recommend re-reading the Varamyr prologue wherein it is explained that when real death occurs (as distinct from the death of a third party while warged into it) the warg concerned can take up residence in his or her primary host - in Jon's case Ghost - but once there is stuck and can't warg out again since it is only a host. Nor can Jon return to his own body since it is dead and likely to stay that way - his spirit no longer being inside it to be awakened as a wight by either Ice or Fire magic. I'm confident that there will turn out to be a cunning way of getting him out of Ghost, but it certainly won't be as simple as Mel kissing his body better.

Crow, I agree with this assessment, and since GRRM lays these ground rules plainly for us, it makes me believe that Jon does not die on the grounds that day, (but is stored beneath the wall in a deep coma). He wargs to Ghost, but doesn't permanently bond, as Varamyr describes true death "True death came suddenly, he felt a shock of cold as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake." This does not appear to be the same as Jon's / GRRM's description "Only the cold" is what he feels instead of the 4th knife, but to me, Varamyr seems to violently describe the cold. Then again, it could be intimated it's the same cold experience of true death. However, I don't believe Jon's dead, to me GRRM has hinted and perhaps unintentionally that Jon and Dany are the most important characters in the story (thronecast interview w/ GRRM and his description of why movies wouldn't work) and I don't see him stuck in Ghost as the end of his character. I think it just works to forward the story as he is temporarily out.

Of course, now that I think about it, he could be such a powerful warg that he could leave his true death. I dont know however, it just doesn't add up to me. I don't think GRRM wants to lay out a hard rule like that, unless it's to link the suspense of Jon's final chapter...

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It will be really awesome for us to see the Land of Always Winter. It does not necessarily have to be Jon, though I find it hard to imagine who else it might be (Bran?)

As for Jon's 'death', there was that (possible) foreshadowing from Varamyr's chapter about how he thought a direwolf like Ghost would provide 'an afterlife fit for a king'...... which points towards the Jon warging into Ghost idea.

That said, personally, I really hope that Jon doesn't die but is just gravely injured (the cold preserves thing). I've stuck with GRRM through the Red Wedding and all with sadness, yes, but also understanding and appreciation of how it contributed to the story. But with this, I just get this really sick feeling in my stomach when I think about any future scenario that includes 'Un-Jon'.

Really don't want to read that. :(

Edited for clarity and to stay on topic.

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Thats so ridiculous. I mean I'm not even sure why people think this is a possiblity. He's either going to be dead or he'll survive thanks to Melisandre. Mayhaps she revives him (which I wouldn't like) or maybe he's very wounded and hurt and she somehow saves him using her magical powers (in which case I can't hate the whore anymore for what she did to Renly). But the idea that GRRM is going to have Jon Snow become a wight or end up in Ghost permanently is absolutely ludicrous and that's where I stop reading.

I think he'll warg into Ghost so that his "mind" survives the death of his body. Melisandre will then insist on burning Jon's body as a sacrifice to the Red God, which will then bring him back to life, as Azor Ahai. I don't think it will be the same as Catelyn and Dondarian's resurrections.

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I think he'll warg into Ghost so that his "mind" survives the death of his body. Melisandre will then insist on burning Jon's body as a sacrifice to the Red God, which will then bring him back to life, as Azor Ahai. I don't think it will be the same as Catelyn and Dondarian's resurrections.

I tend to agree with this theory. Going along with his other books it will not likely happen til the end leaving us with a cliffhanger. A sacrifice and rebirth seems likely since Melisandre kept telling Jon to "kill the boy and let the man be born"

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I think he'll warg into Ghost so that his "mind" survives the death of his body. Melisandre will then insist on burning Jon's body as a sacrifice to the Red God, which will then bring him back to life, as Azor Ahai. I don't think it will be the same as Catelyn and Dondarian's resurrections.

I hope that you are so wrong. I don't like the idea of Jon becoming a permanent wolf being part of the plot development. I prefer him returning in one way or another from his predicament or not at all. Being dead is much better than being a wolf for Jon.

And in terms of the topic of this thread, Jon is the Lord Commander and his place is at the Wall whether survives his wounds or returns in one form or another. I think Bran is the more likely candidate to reveal to us the Land of Always Winter. The fact is he can enter any weirwood or animal. Why cant he warg into a raven and fly all the way to the Others' lands? I don't see what would stop him. And where does the growth of the weirwoods ends? The borders of the Lands of Always Winter? In the lands themselves? I think Bran will show us more of the others and their realm than Jon.

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I've been asking myself recently: How likely is it for the two consecutive Lord Commanders to die off the hands of their NW brothers? From the story point of view it would become such a cliché, and I tend to hope Martin is better than this. Sure enough, he could use such plot development, but doing so he may risk losing creative depth of his novels.

Secondly, what would constitute the plot basis for Jon to be dead – resurrected – semidead? There are really few milestones based on which we could assume that Jon’s death makes logical sense. On the contrary, from the story point of view (wildings, the Wall, Sam, the Others, Winterfell, Starks, Stannis, even Jon’s recent resolution to “kill the boy inside”) everything directs towards Jon remaining alive.

Thirdly, how would the existing plot advance / resolve if Jon were dead – resurrected – semidead? Literally, there are so many threads interweaved into Jon’s POV that may abruptly end without resolutions if he actually died. And probably the only two fit justification would have been to lay grounds for (a) the Others to advance the invasion scenario, but this can be achieved without Jon dying anyhow (on the other side, do we really believe that the goal of the Others is to invade the South?) and (B) Jon being relieved of his NW duties and free to do as he pleases with the rest of his transformation.

Finally, what would contribute to the general story more: Jon dying and resurrecting, or Jon surviving his attack without magic intervention? Rarity and supernatural quality of magic is what makes the whole series “readable” and distinguishable from a teenage fiction, so why would the author abuse us readers into excessive abracadabra?

So, in a nutshell: Jon will survive his wounds. During his recovery process he may warg recreationally into Ghost, or he may not. Actually, the way I prefer it is if Jon would retain the warging potential untapped, and focused on his other - more icy dragonish – nature ;)

As for the question of who will end up exposing “further North”, it may well be Jon on a badass ranging mission with Val J or Bran surfing the Weirnet, or … waaait for it … awesome Onion Kinght on the mission with Osha and the Skagosi to institute Rickon as the true King of Winter. Every Stark has a role to play (Arya – Ninja, Bran – Druid Demi-God, Jon – Ice Dragon, Rickon – the Kind of Winter)

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So, in a nutshell: Jon will survive his wounds. During his recovery process he may warg recreationally into Ghost, or he may not. Actually, the way I prefer it is if Jon would retain the warging potential untapped, and focused on his other - more icy dragonish – nature ;)

I completely agree with your post. I've never understood the jump to assume that Jon is dead. Let's face it, when Martin has killed off characters previously, even those that he subsequently resurrected, he's described the moment of death in some detail. Jon's last chapter ends very ambiguously, it is the archetypal cliffhanger. But just to reiterate, Jon got stabbed three times with daggers, none of which were to the head which would bring almost certain death. People survive much worse on a daily basis, and people within the GRRM universe have survived much worse.

My expectation is that Martin is much too good a storyteller to go to the undead/resurrection well one more time. Jon survived, rescued by Mel, Val, Tormund, Ghost or whoever. He's critically wounded and I'm guessing that he's been usurped as Lord Commander but he's still alive. Perhaps a period bedridden will open him to a greater empathy with Bran which may bring their story lines together at last. Who knows? But my default assumption is that Jon lived in both mind and body.

Another reason I'd be disappointed with Jon surviving by warg or resurrection is that it would ramp up the magic i the series unnecessarily. We're already going to get some hot dragon action and a load of warging from Bran plus the attack from the White Walkers. I'd be really disappointed if ASOIAF just became another SyFy CHannel original...

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A sacrifice and rebirth seems likely since Melisandre kept telling Jon to "kill the boy and let the man be born"

That was not something that Melisandre said to Jon. Jon remembers Maester Aegon saying it to him (Jon) before he (Aegon) left for the Citadel with Sam. Jon then uses Aegon's words in his method to make Sam stop acting the coward and accompany Aegon.

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HouseLark ~ I agree completely! I truly hope he is not dead, but just wounded. There were a couple reason that, at first, made me think Jon was dead: a) because some idiot spoiled the scene for me before I was done reading and said "omg Jon gets killed", and b ) therefore, as I was reading I thought either Melisandre was going to burn him, or he was really going to die and remain in Ghost (I thought maybe the Varamyr prologue was foreshadowing in this regard).

However, when I actually got to the 'death' scene in the book, I was more confused than anything else. I thought....if that is truly a death scene, then it is strangely written . But then I came onto the boards to see what others thought and sooo many people were talking about Jon's death and presumed resurrection. This has never sat well with me, but I thought I was just too crazy or sensitive or too attached to Jon or something.

But then, a friend of mine (a relative newbie to the series who was reading the books for the first time straight through), recently got to the 'death scene' bit, and when I asked him what he thought happened to Jon, he was like.....bah, he's not dead! LIke, not in denial, but just really, really confident that he was definitely not dead. This friend has never visited the forums. So I thought, hmmm.... maybe all this over-analyzing is actually clouding our judgement here. :P

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One thing I've been considering...

Are we all reading too much into the "Jon never felt the 4th knife, only the cold" line? I mean, he's been stabbed multiple times; he's going to lose consciousness sooner or later and get very cold from loss of blood. It's my opinion that he isn't dead, just badly wounded, and I think it would be cool if his recovery was au naturale and unaided by sorcery (Mel's, or otherwise). I think that type of recovery would open doors to scenarios that don't seem as obvious for where Jon goes from here.

The thought of him becoming a wight is... meh, idk, it seems wrong. And not morally wrong like the RW or the multiple violent deaths of decent people, but wrong for the direction of the story. Anyone feel me on that one? Also not sure how I feel about the idea of him temporarily living as Ghost, but it seems a more likely route than ZombieJon IMO.

Anyway I just joined these forums, psyched to be here and discuss with you all!

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Here's my speculation of the events today, basically my whacked out theory, sorry if its been presented before.

Jon is in a coma after the stabbing. The nightswatch, queens men, and Wildlings have a battle royale, during which a significant number of the NW there are killed / bound/ flee to the other keeps (this would align w/ Jon's dream where he is on the Wall with nothing but scarecrow NW, clad in black ice). Jon's body they believe needs to be preserved as he is still alive yet they have no real way to sustain him/prevent blood flow, so they place him in the store rooms while they try and figure things out. Mel begins looking into the fires and keeps being drawn to Jon. While this is going on, Jon/Ghost pads around thinking about how he can save Arya, whether to turn on the NW, and trying to convince everyone he is in Ghost, basic internal struggles.

Eventually, he gets north of the wall (perhaps the gates are opened for him as he howls and howls at the gate or Borroq senses him and opens the gate, and J/G heads to the weirwood grove. There he attempts to pray to the tree for guidence, and whilst doing so slips into the weirwood by accident. He then flashes back to Winterfell or Bran contacts him. He learns of who his mother and father are, but still believes himself to be a bastard son (there by the legitimization of Robb would still matter and not just be a who cares event). Bran also warns him that he has seen deep into heart of Winter and the Others are coming. Jon has a renewed sense of purpose, but is still in Ghost.

Anyway, realizing who he is gives Jon purpose to return, perhaps he was having that internal debate about what's the point, all is lost, blah blah (alternate theory, he just didn't want to come back because he thought F the watch and F everyone for letting me get stabbed - however, on with today's musing). By now, it's most likely revealed that Stannis et al are not dead, Arya is a fake, and Winterfell is reclaimed. Manderly knows of Rickon, so assuming Davos is reunited w/ Stannis, they put Rickon in place with a Lord Regent to handle Winterfell. At this point, Jon most likely wants to return but seeing as how a Stark sits in Winterfell, and Bran warns him of the impending invasion, he has a choice to make, claim what is his by right (I am the Lord of Winterfell line from his dream), or prepare for the invasion. He wargs back to ghost and heads back to the Wall. Stannis has arrived and all are rejoicing, and he decides the only thing that's left to do, by urging of Mel is to burn Jon's body as he has not yet returned (perhaps at this point Mel believes she can make him rise). Jon is layed out on a pyre with Longclaw in hand, all are gathered around. When they perform this right, J/Ghost comes sprinting into the scene, Jon tries to warg into his body but can't seem to arise, as they begin burning the body with Jon internally screaming hopelessly, Ghost leaps onto the pyre and sacrifices himself, this causes some type of insane blood magic / AA sacrificing his lover type deal, the flames burst and Jon arises out of the flames, born again, the sword red with flame.

Then again, maybe he just wargs back into his body which is fine, and he just puts the sword in the fire and draws it out as AA, saying "i am the prince who was promised, I am the song of ice and fire, the light in the darkness, blah blah blah.

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I wouldn't mind that, except for the Ghost dying part. :(

Not saying that it's not possible, just that I wouldn't like it one bit. :crying:

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I completely agree with your post. I've never understood the jump to assume that Jon is dead. Let's face it, when Martin has killed off characters previously, even those that he subsequently resurrected, he's described the moment of death in some detail. Jon's last chapter ends very ambiguously, it is the archetypal cliffhanger. But just to reiterate, Jon got stabbed three times with daggers, none of which were to the head which would bring almost certain death. People survive much worse on a daily basis, and people within the GRRM universe have survived much worse. My expectation is that Martin is much too good a storyteller to go to the undead/resurrection well one more time. Jon survived, rescued by Mel, Val, Tormund, Ghost or whoever. He's critically wounded and I'm guessing that he's been usurped as Lord Commander but he's still alive. Perhaps a period bedridden will open him to a greater empathy with Bran which may bring their story lines together at last. Who knows? But my default assumption is that Jon lived in both mind and body. Another reason I'd be disappointed with Jon surviving by warg or resurrection is that it would ramp up the magic i the series unnecessarily. We're already going to get some hot dragon action and a load of warging from Bran plus the attack from the White Walkers. I'd be really disappointed if ASOIAF just became another SyFy CHannel original...

I agree with this. We're not told any secrets as a licensee, so this is all just my personal guess, but GRRM, when he kills someone, kills them. If it is a cliff hanger, the person lives. Bran twice, Brienne, Daenerys I think, Tyrion, These were all mortal danger cliffhangers, either book end or chapter end, and they all survived. Meanwhile people who get killed. Areo Hotah, Eddard, Robb, Drogo, Viserys, etc he goes into detail. you aren't left with any doubt. Then even with people like Catelyn, she also didn't get the same detail as her son.

I don't know how Jon survives, but I'm sure he will, maybe with Melisandre's help, maybe not. I also think the Wall falling down, is going to be what ultimately releases him from his oath, allowing him to get on with his life and do great things.

Baxter's thought about Jon being burned and resurrected, while it has a nice yin/yang balance seemingly with Daenerys. I'm not sure about. It sounds neat, but the dragon has three heads, if Jon is Azor Ahai, Dany cannot be. Of course, Jon is susceptible to burns, as seen in his wight battle where he injures his hands, is he one of the three heads?

I would put money on Jon not being dead, and the wall eventually falling though.

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^ I too used to think that whole burning hands thing would make him not a dragon, but then I was rereading ADwD the other night, specifically Dany's final chapter, and she mentions her hands have blistered from burns and her hair is singed.

From the citadel section: GRRM has firmly stated that what happened with Daenerys at the end of A Game of Thrones was a unique event (SSL. EHC). That said, in A Dance with Dragons, it does seem that Daenerys has at least some supernatural protection from fire. While her hands are burned and blistered and her hair burned away, neither her scalp or any other part of her body was injured by her experience with Drogon’s fire.

Kind of made me think of Jon's hands only burning but also that her super naturalness is not full on flame immunity. So it wouldn't rule Jon out. Also, I kind of have this hunkering notion that there isn't just one AA, that some how Jon, Dany and mystery head of the dragon embody AA. That or Jon is the legit AA, whose role is to march against darkness and Dany is meant to rule the people fairly, too many different ways this can go. I just don't see Jon at the end of the series ruling the lands of Westeros but instead swearing to uphold the Wall / protect the North. I dont know, it just seems too easy for the dragons to swoop in and just burn the Others down, game over. I feel like there will be some extreme twists once Dany lands, and clearly when / if Jon comes back.

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I hope that you are so wrong. I don't like the idea of Jon becoming a permanent wolf being part of the plot development. I prefer him returning in one way or another from his predicament or not at all.

Great. So then you agree with what I said.

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