Possible Jon POV in the Land of Always Winter

[TheTowerOfJoy]

A wight would be able to go there, or possibly a dire wolf like Ghost. The problem with Bran going is I don't see it being a place where there would be many weirwoods for him to view the Land of Always Winter through, and greenseers aren't able to see up there anyway. The Others have some sort of block or something, if I remember correctly. Not to mention the fact that he's crippled and I don't see Hodor as being excited about taking him there. Benjen's a possibility, but GRRM said he isn't adding any more POV's, not that it's binding or anything like that. He can change his mind if it fits the story. Anyway, I still see Jon as most likely, or some other character as a wight. I guess Bran could also warg into something up there that isn't a weirwood. Bran warged Hodor, so maybe he could warg a wight. That might make him go insane or something, though. I like my Jon going there as Ghost idea best, I think. By the way, for those who haven't seen these or don't remember, these are the main reasons I think it's very possible Jon will be a wight at some point (all prophecies throughout the series):

"Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow."- wights and others have blue eyes if I remember correctly, no shadow a reference to the undead, though this may be Stannis instead of Jon

"A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness."- blue flower symbol of Starks, chink in wall of ice could be ice room where corpses are kept

It seems there are other prophecies that suggest this from Bran or someone, dreams or something, but I can't remember them off hand.

Bran could certainly see through Summer or a crow, or any other animal and take them all the way up to the far North.

If Jon does it, I would imagine it would be through the eyes of Ghost while he's "recuperating" from his most recent injuries.

[Borsabil]

Blehh, not so excited for a wight Jon...we don't need another undead Stark. I like the idea of Jon warging into Ghost, taking out some sworn brothers and heading north. Whether he meets the Reeds, Hodor, and Bran or not, I've no idea. I think it would be very interesting for Ghost to encounter Shaggydog or Summer, but even more interesting for Ghost/Jon to see Coldhands.

I know it's probably asking too much to expect consistency from GRRM but isn't it the case that wargs 'lose themselves' when they transfer their concisousness into an animal familiar upon death? If Jon does warg into Ghost after he's deaded then that'll be the end of him....so no this theory doesn't make any sense to me.

Why did George decide to have Jon attacked near the end of a ADWD? The only plausible explanation is as a justification for Jon to remove himself from the NW without feeling like he's betraying his vows. Having your sworn brothers try to kill you gives him a get out clause if you like. The whole thing seems a little forced to me, I prefer the Jon that told Stannis to go hang when offered the Stark name and Winterfell rather than betray his oath.

So we will have a badly injured Jon being taken to safety by his wildling allies, and once recovered from his wounds become a focus for the GNC. The alternative is that Jon really is dead, which I would LOVE to be true, but given the time focused on his character by GRRM seems very unlikely. All the supernatural theories about zombie Jon and werewolf Jon are amusing to read about but frankly if George did decide to go down that route my respect for him as an author would drop substantially.

[aryagonnakill]

I know it's probably asking too much to expect consistency from GRRM but isn't it the case that wargs 'lose themselves' when they transfer their concisousness into an animal familiar upon death? If Jon does warg into Ghost after he's deaded then that'll be the end of him....so no this theory doesn't make any sense to me.

Why did George decide to have Jon attacked near the end of a ADWD? The only plausible explanation is as a justification for Jon to remove himself from the NW without feeling like he's betraying his vows. Having your sworn brothers try to kill you gives him a get out clause if you like. The whole thing seems a little forced to me, I prefer the Jon that told Stannis to go hang when offered the Stark name and Winterfell rather than betray his oath.

So we will have a badly injured Jon being taken to safety by his wildling allies, and once recovered from his wounds become a focus for the GNC. The alternative is that Jon really is dead, which I would LOVE to be true, but given the time focused on his character by GRRM seems very unlikely. All the supernatural theories about zombie Jon and werewolf Jon are amusing to read about but frankly if George did decide to go down that route my respect for him as an author would drop substantially.

I think you should re read the Varamyr chapter. It specifically states that the man SLOWLY looses himself over time. Then later in the book Bran recognizes that Varamyr is one eye, he refers to him as a warg rather than a wolf, and then there is the presence of the children in the crows. They linger. I like this personally because I feel Ghost will have to burn to revive Jon and I feel when this happens Jon will always have more of Ghost in him then he had before.

[Borsabil]

I think you should re read the Varamyr chapter. It specifically states that the man SLOWLY looses himself over time. Then later in the book Bran recognizes that Varamyr is one eye, he refers to him as a warg rather than a wolf, and then there is the presence of the children in the crows. They linger. I like this personally because I feel Ghost will have to burn to revive Jon and I feel when this happens Jon will always have more of Ghost in him then he had before.

Yes I remember that, but it was speculated that werewolf Jon would traipse round the Land of Always Winter in POV chapters, presumably for a substantial period of time. How are we proposing that Jon is revived then? Cryogenic storage in the ice cells until a passing red priest gives him the kiss of life and then burns Ghost to release his spirit? This is getting more complicated by the second. As I said GRRM could I suppose go down this route, but frankly it would bore me silly. I hope George doesn't plan to write the character in this way, but he did give us frankengregor and zombie Catelyn, so sure maybe.

[aryagonnakill]

I certainly never said that Jon would explore a place with no food to eat or water to drink while in the body of a living animal, the very concept of anyone living going there is stupid to me, I assume Bran will reveal more about the others. But your right some people have said that. My only prediction for Jon is that he will go into ghost, Mel maybe there when he gets there and talk to him. But I believe his dream at the beginning of Dance was a prophetic targ dream, that he will talk to Bran at a weirwood tree and that before the end of the book he will be revived someway somehow. Either Mel giving her life, or Ghost, or both.

[House Lunny]

I hope it's Benjen in either prologue or epilogue

[Borsabil]

I certainly never said that Jon would explore a place with no food to eat or water to drink while in the body of a living animal, the very concept of anyone living going there is stupid to me, I assume Bran will reveal more about the others. But your right some people have said that. My only prediction for Jon is that he will go into ghost, Mel maybe there when he gets there and talk to him. But I believe his dream at the beginning of Dance was a prophetic targ dream, that he will talk to Bran at a weirwood tree and that before the end of the book he will be revived someway somehow. Either Mel giving her life, or Ghost, or both.

If we are assuming that Jon is 'dead', which would certainly free him from the bonds of the NW without breaking his vows, and hence pissing off the old Gods, then yes your scenario makes sense. It could only be for a brief period, perhaps until Melissandre can do some voodoo and revive him. As I commented on another thread, lots of people are assuming that Mel can wake the dead a la Thoros, but we have seen absolutely no evidence for that. It could be that she's not aware that such a thing is possible and so has never tried it before, which would beg the question why try it now on Jon? I'm really hoping that Jon is either just badly injured or well and truly deaded. I have no objection to the magical stuff, though at times it seems a bit of an authors cop out when a difficult plot exposition Is reached.

[aryagonnakill]

If we are assuming that Jon is 'dead', which would certainly free him from the bonds of the NW without breaking his vows, and hence pissing off the old Gods, then yes your scenario makes sense. It could only be for a brief period, perhaps until Melissandre can do some voodoo and revive him. As I commented on another thread, lots of people are assuming that Mel can wake the dead a la Thoros, but we have seen absolutely no evidence for that. It could be that she's not aware that such a thing is possible and so has never tried it before, which would beg the question why try it now on Jon? I'm really hoping that Jon is either just badly injured or well and truly deaded. I have no objection to the magical stuff, though at times it seems a bit of an authors cop out when a difficult plot exposition Is reached.

The last part has certainly seemed true at times for me, but I feel it has been leading to a truly big revival, and I feel the combo with the Varamyr chapter points to Jon getting this. I do agree there is no absolute statement of fact that Mel can revive Jon, however, she does tell us in her POV that she has real power at the wall, and there are hints that she is already dead and has been revived, meaning she would at least know that it is possible for some people.

[Borsabil]

The last part has certainly seemed true at times for me, but I feel it has been leading to a truly big revival, and I feel the combo with the Varamyr chapter points to Jon getting this. I do agree there is no absolute statement of fact that Mel can revive Jon, however, she does tell us in her POV that she has real power at the wall, and there are hints that she is already dead and has been revived, meaning she would at least know that it is possible for some people.

I get that Thoros is a red priest like Mel, and that in theory Mel should be able to revive the dead like him, she can do other far out there stuff like the shadow babies and reading the fires, so why not necromancy? Except I can't help but think there's lots about this we're not getting or fully understanding. We assume that Thoros is getting his power from the 'red god' and yet Martin has already stated that ALL of the Gods in the novels are false, so clearly he gets his power from somewhere else. Perhaps all we're seeing is an awakening of magic in a few exceptional individuals, with abilities inherent to THEM, which would tend to speak against Mel as a zombie master. As I said if she could wake the dead why hasn't she? It's not like she's been shy about using all the rest of her powers so far in the books.

I think folks are making assumptions about Jon's plot arc with no evidence to back it. I.e Melissandre will revive Jon because she's a red priestess, we know she can do this because Thoros is a red priest and he can do it. Just because two people have something in common does not necessarily mean they have a shared ability, Mel Streep and Kim Kardashian have both appeared in movies, doesn't make Kim an actress though does it?

[Last Stark]

For five books GRRM has been building this threat from the North, it occurs to me that we need a POV from the Other side for the remaining two books to conclude the story. That is either Bran or Jon. Jon to me is most likely because its a greater twist. As we all have an expectation that Jon is the promised one who will save mankind and just like taking Neds head, the Red Wedding it will be the shocking event of the next book. Jon is the Great Other! The song of Ice!

[Magjee]

Coldhands POV would be delicious.

[cealicu_ca]

I would bet that on the scenario that Jon wargs Ghost and that his body somehow is turned into a wight. Afterwards Jon will reclaim his body. Afterall, the mere fact that Coldhands exists suggest that a wight body (he does resemble a wight on the outside) can be re-possessed. So my belief is that Coldhands is a wight who was warged which shows that it IS possible. Why not warg your own body (even if that body is now cold and "lifeless" but magically brought to life as a wight)?

Also, in the following confrontation with the Others, it would have a much larger impact on the reader if the Others also had some sort of champion (and not just some Others along with their undead armies). It might also be that the Others are not the evil we think them to be (just as well as the Dragons are not all that good after all) and so another theory i find interesting would be for Jon to command the armies of the Others.

The clash would then be between Dany (fire) and Jon (ice).

EDIT: The fact that Jon dies... I actually think that he NEEDED to "die" just as Bran needed to "die" in order for him to accept who he really is (and set him upon the journey of discovering his true potential). Jon's "death" is just a milestone towards fulfilling his destiny and it's a necessary thing. ("die" - as in near death experiences... on the brink of death or even death itself)

In my own culture we have a popular story (a very old one) in which the central character is killed by his despotic mentor (and then brought back to life by using the water of life LOL) and thus fulfilled the condition that the mentor said he would need to fulfill in order for him to be free - to die and be born again. So he dies and is brought back to life - at which point he becomes what he was destined to become (the promised prince blah blah blah). I believe this is a central motive to many a stories in several cultures, and represents the cleansing any hero must undergo in order to be ready to embrace his destiny, and since George seems to be very fond on those i believe it is central to Jon development.

[Whitering]

Thirded.

Starks have throughout history been both the Heroes and the Villains. I am okay with Jon becoming a villain if it is Stark that ultimately opposes him.

[aryagonnakill]

. As I said if she could wake the dead why hasn't she? It's not like she's been shy about using all the rest of her powers so far in the books.

This doesn't make sense to me, who would she have revived?

[KingHodorTargaryen]

So question to all of you. In order for Jon to be revived, he needs a big sacrifice. I predict it will either be king's blood or Ghost. However, why is Ghost himself powerful enough to bring Jon back?

[Bearjohn Blizzardborn]

Why wouldn't the night's watch burn his body? They're familiar with wights.

[DDaal]

So question to all of you. In order for Jon to be revived, he needs a big sacrifice. I predict it will either be king's blood or Ghost. However, why is Ghost himself powerful enough to bring Jon back?

Why would he need a big sacrifice to be revived? If mellisandre is half as good as she claims she is she can do it without a sacrifice. She has to be given the chance though, which I think she will get, but she won't do it at the wall. Burning Ghost would be stupid and pointless and I don't see any king sacrificing himself for a bastard.

[aryagonnakill]

Why would he need a big sacrifice to be revived? If mellisandre is half as good as she claims she is she can do it without a sacrifice. She has to be given the chance though, which I think she will get, but she won't do it at the wall. Burning Ghost would be stupid and pointless and I don't see any king sacrificing himself for a bastard.

I don't think this statement has a single accurate point. Mellisandre admits she is not nearly as powerful as she seems in her POV chapter. I believe the shadowbabies are a result of her having been brought back a la Beric Dondarion style, but Beric is not himself and niether is Melissandre in my eyes. Only death can pay for life, real life. And Jon is just a bastard?

[Theoricus]

About Jon as AA... This has probably been discussed before, but really how likely is it that he fits the prophecy?

I mean, Daenerys had a metaphorical rebirth in a bonfire mourning her lost love in an event which led to petrified eggs hatching actual dragons. She fits the prophecy extremely well in an extremely literal way.

Jon's is more subtle, and while I like subtlety there's a point where you have to wonder if you're making a mistake in seeing a pattern that doesn't actually exist. He fits the prophecy in that some guy whose surcoat is a star was pulled apart by a giant, he's in such cold weather the heat from his wounds causes vapor, and some guy is crying as he's stabbing him. It just doesn't seem very portentous beyond the fact that Jon is literally being killed.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

I know it's probably asking too much to expect consistency from GRRM but isn't it the case that wargs 'lose themselves' when they transfer their concisousness into an animal familiar upon death? If Jon does warg into Ghost after he's deaded then that'll be the end of him....so no this theory doesn't make any sense to me.

What about if he's just in a coma, not dead, like Bran?