R+L=J v.25

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

It almost certainly has been brought up somewhere, but just in case it hasn't there's this quote from Craster about Jon.

"A bastard, is it? Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do."

The possible implication that this is a nod towards a much theorised R+L wedding.

At first read, it seems like nothing; but on the grand scale...I feel it may be meant to get one thinking. :)

[Baelor Blackfyre]

This may be off topic from what's currently being discussed. But people always seem to focus on Howland Reed to be the guy who is the holder of truth on what exactly happened at the Tower of Joy. And I don't know if this has been said before, (these R+L=J forums could be made into a novel of their own) but couldn't Bloodraven know the truth as well? Wouldn't Bloodraven's knowledge put Varys' knowledge to shame?

We saw how Bran caught of glimpse of Ned saying some very important stuff about Robb and Jon being raised, "as close as brothers" and Bran is most likely an amateur at warging compared to Bloodraven. Who knows how long Old Man Rivers has been stuck to that tree watching absolutely everything play out, whether it be through heart trees or ravens.

It's just a thought, but I just feel like Brynden Rivers is a character people tend to gloss over. And if the theories are true, about him controlling Mormont's Raven in order to help and guide Jon Snow, that would be huge. Because Mormont's Raven is always saying some very peculiar things that no one can truly explain.

Like the saying "king" all the time in front of Jon,

or saying "Jon Snow" at the end of Dance right to his face,

or (as someone pointed out on this forum that absolutely blew my mind that I looked over) saying "Burn! Burn!" when Jon was fighting the wight for the first time. This point seems to show that it's more likely that Bloodraven is controlling Mormont's Raven rather that Jeor himself. Because I highly doubt the Old Bear would know how to kill a wight, let alone warg into a raven in the middle of the fight to help Jon Snow.

But then again who knows, cause "Corn! Corn!" seems to be his catch phrase. And saying that all the time doesn't make him look like a clever bird at all.

[Ygrain]

Good idea. Indeed, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna has creepy parallels to the story of Bael the Bard, a story Lyanna might well have known. Of course, that's just the start of it, but what if Lyanna, while being as willful as Arya, also had a liking for stories like Sansa (as seen by her sniffling at Rhaegar's song), and wanted to relive the story of Bael the Bard? Alas, Bael and the Stark daughter survived their year in hiding... while in Lyanna's case, everything went wrong.

Wow. You may have hit the bull's eye here. People have been wondering why Rhaegar didn't come out of the hiding sooner, or what he was thinking to go to hiding in the first place, but what if this was Lyanna's idea all along? Why do we automatically expect Rhaegar to be the one initiating this? I've already been toying with the idea that the "kidnapping at swordpoint", which Dany referred to once, if true at all, was merely staged, after a mutual agreemnet, to protect Lyanna's honour. If the story of rape and abduction seems, in fact to be reverted into one of tragic love, why not go even further and switch the "traditional" roles?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

This may be off topic from what's currently being discussed. But people always seem to focus on Howland Reed to be the guy who is the holder of truth on what exactly happened at the Tower of Joy. And I don't know if this has been said before, (these R+L=J forums could be made into a novel of their own) but couldn't Bloodraven know the truth as well? Wouldn't Bloodraven's knowledge put Varys' knowledge to shame? We saw how Bran caught of glimpse of Ned saying some very important stuff about Robb and Jon being raised, "as close as brothers" and Bran is most likely an amateur at warging compared to Bloodraven. Who knows how long Old Man Rivers has been stuck to that tree watching absolutely everything play out, whether it be through heart trees or ravens. It's just a thought, but I just feel like Brynden Rivers is a character people tend to gloss over. And if the theories are true, about him controlling Mormont's Raven in order to help and guide Jon Snow, that would be huge. Because Mormont's Raven is always saying some very peculiar things that no one can truly explain. Like the saying "king" all the time in front of Jon, or saying "Jon Snow" at the end of Dance right to his face, or (as someone pointed out on this forum that absolutely blew my mind that I looked over) saying "Burn! Burn!" when Jon was fighting the wight for the first time. This point seems to show that it's more likely that Bloodraven is controlling Mormont's Raven rather that Jeor himself. Because I highly doubt the Old Bear would know how to kill a wight, let alone warg into a raven in the middle of the fight to help Jon Snow. But then again who knows, cause "Corn! Corn!" seems to be his catch phrase. And saying that all the time doesn't make him look like a clever bird at all.

I LOVE this! Bloodraven could have witnessed Rhaegar marrying Lyanna in front of a weirwood, and could have also heard Ned discussing it in depth, through prayer, in front of a weirwood.

Maybe the raven saying, "Corn! Corn!", is Bloodraven's way of making the raven seem normal.

[The guy from the Vale]

Wow. You may have hit the bull's eye here. People have been wondering why Rhaegar didn't come out of the hiding sooner, or what he was thinking to go to hiding in the first place, but what if this was Lyanna's idea all along? Why do we automatically expect Rhaegar to be the one initiating this? I've already been toying with the idea that the "kidnapping at swordpoint", which Dany referred to once, if true at all, was merely staged, after a mutual agreemnet, to protect Lyanna's honour. If the story of rape and abduction seems, in fact to be reverted into one of tragic love, why not go even further and switch the "traditional" roles?

Of course, Rhaegar was quite a bit older than Lyanna, so while this sounds very interesting, Rhaegar must still have been complicit in the plan from the get-go. It wouldn't absolve him of anything, although it would make for an interesting relationship dynamic.

@Baelor: Indeed, Bloodraven most probably knows, calling Jon "King Snow" through Mormont's raven. But there's a problem: he can't come south to prove who he is. Howland Reed, on the other hand, can meet people in the seven kingdoms and tell them what happened, at one point or another.

[Chris Spika]

What if the Winged wolf is Jon ? Dragons have wings and if R+L=J is true means jon is half dragon half wolf. Its just that i feel that stone chains might refer to the crypts of Winterfell.

II: 320 - THE WINGED WOLF

"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

Jojen nodded.

[The guy from the Vale]

Indeed, the Winged Wolf could refer to both Bran or Jon; Bran through Bloodravens promise of Bran flying, Jon through his heritage.

The stone chains, of course, could also refer to the Wall, as Jon is bound to the Wall, and Bloodraven, as powerful Targ supporter, has every incentive to free him from his vows.

[Lady Octarina]

This may be off topic from what's currently being discussed. But people always seem to focus on Howland Reed to be the guy who is the holder of truth on what exactly happened at the Tower of Joy. And I don't know if this has been said before, (these R+L=J forums could be made into a novel of their own) but couldn't Bloodraven know the truth as well? Wouldn't Bloodraven's knowledge put Varys' knowledge to shame? We saw how Bran caught of glimpse of Ned saying some very important stuff about Robb and Jon being raised, "as close as brothers" and Bran is most likely an amateur at warging compared to Bloodraven. Who knows how long Old Man Rivers has been stuck to that tree watching absolutely everything play out, whether it be through heart trees or ravens. It's just a thought, but I just feel like Brynden Rivers is a character people tend to gloss over. And if the theories are true, about him controlling Mormont's Raven in order to help and guide Jon Snow, that would be huge. Because Mormont's Raven is always saying some very peculiar things that no one can truly explain. Like the saying "king" all the time in front of Jon, or saying "Jon Snow" at the end of Dance right to his face, or (as someone pointed out on this forum that absolutely blew my mind that I looked over) saying "Burn! Burn!" when Jon was fighting the wight for the first time. This point seems to show that it's more likely that Bloodraven is controlling Mormont's Raven rather that Jeor himself. Because I highly doubt the Old Bear would know how to kill a wight, let alone warg into a raven in the middle of the fight to help Jon Snow. But then again who knows, cause "Corn! Corn!" seems to be his catch phrase. And saying that all the time doesn't make him look like a clever bird at all.

As theguyfromtheVale said, the main purpose of Howland Reed (or Wylla the wetnurse, or Ashara Dayne, or the darkstar etc) knowing is that they're able to move around and tell the truth to whoever must hear it (northern Lords, southern Lords, Jon himself...) and be seen as legitimate holders of this truth. But you're right, Bloodraven is probably the most knowledgeable person in Westeros in centuries, even when he was still... uh... alive and walking. And I think the crow saying Corn Corn is, well... there's a chance someone trained it at some point to say that, like Sam trained the ravens to say Jon's name. But I prefer to think that's Bloodraven's sense of humor showing. I mean, the guy is stuck to that cave with only legendary beings for companions (or images of the past and future, for that matter) - making a raven say stupid things at the right time seems a good way to have fun when nothing else is available.

Indeed, the Winged Wolf could refer to both Bran or Jon; Bran through Bloodravens promise of Bran flying, Jon through his heritage. The stone chains, of course, could also refer to the Wall, as Jon is bound to the Wall, and Bloodraven, as powerful Targ supporter, has every incentive to free him from his vows.

Yes. Another possibility is that the stone chains refer to Jon's certainty of being a bastard, Eddard Stark's bastard, no one special, and his reluctance to accept any other possibility (as he is reluctant to accept his warging abilities).

Also, I just have to mention I love the possibility that someone mentioned previously of whatever Melisandre will do to heal him (or bring him back to life, or whatever) will increase his own "powers" with a different kind of magic and enable him to have complete control over his warging abilities, even including the possibility of warging a dragon. I mean, yes, I don't think it's necessary, but it's such a cool possibility I can't help wishing that happens. :drool:

[Chris Spika]

As theguyfromtheVale said, the main purpose of Howland Reed (or Wylla the wetnurse, or Ashara Dayne, or the darkstar etc) knowing is that they're able to move around and tell the truth to whoever must hear it (northern Lords, southern Lords, Jon himself...) and be seen as legitimate holders of this truth. But you're right, Bloodraven is probably the most knowledgeable person in Westeros in centuries, even when he was still... uh... alive and walking. And I think the crow saying Corn Corn is, well... there's a chance someone trained it at some point to say that, like Sam trained the ravens to say Jon's name. But I prefer to think that's Bloodraven's sense of humor showing. I mean, the guy is stuck to that cave with only legendary beings for companions (or images of the past and future, for that matter) - making a raven say stupid things at the right time seems a good way to have fun when nothing else is available.

Yes. Another possibility is that the stone chains refer to Jon's certainty of being a bastard, Eddard Stark's bastard, no one special, and his reluctance to accept any other possibility (as he is reluctant to accept his warging abilities).

Also, I just have to mention I love the possibility that someone mentioned previously of whatever Melisandre will do to heal him (or bring him back to life, or whatever) will increase his own "powers" with a different kind of magic and enable him to have complete control over his warging abilities, even including the possibility of warging a dragon. I mean, yes, I don't think it's necessary, but it's such a cool possibility I can't help wishing that happens. :drool:

This is a summary, rather than a quote from the book.

Jon dreams of the direwolves, and realizes that one of the female wolves is dead. Then he hears a voice behind him, a silent shout or whisper, and he looks around, searching for a lean grey shape. He sees a sapling weirwood rapidly growing from the cliff side, and it has Bran's face, except it has three eyes. He wonders if his brother always had three eyes, and the weirwood tells him that it wasn't the case until the crow. John smells wolf, tree and boy, and warm earth, hard stone and death. Bran tells him that he likes it in the dark, and then the weirwood touches Jon to open his eye. Suddenly Jon slips into Ghost and sees things from his perspective.

I think its bran that will help jon with his "powers" , Thats whenever jon gets to the crypts

[chrisdaw]

That's from COK right? Interesting thing is Bran hasn't yet met BR at that time, it seems like it's future Bran reaching back to Jon at that point.

I LOVE this! Bloodraven could have witnessed Rhaegar marrying Lyanna in front of a weirwood, and could have also heard Ned discussing it in depth, through prayer, in front of a weirwood.

Maybe the raven saying, "Corn! Corn!", is Bloodraven's way of making the raven seem normal.

BR surely knows, but if a marriage happened and happened in front of a weirwood Bran could view (review) it. A Bran POV viewing seems a more likely reveal I think than a conversation with BR.

[Teal'c]

It almost certainly has been brought up somewhere, but just in case it hasn't there's this quote from Craster about Jon. "A bastard, is it? Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do." The possible implication that this is a nod towards a much theorised R+L wedding.

At first read, it seems like nothing; but on the grand scale...I feel it may be meant to get one thinking. :)

"If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives." Daenerys, AGOT, p 670 US paperback.

Is it Barristan or Jorah who tells Dany that she is like Rhaegar and not Viserys? Can't find the quote.

[Sapphire]

Jorah tells Dany "you are your brother's sister in truth" when she stops the Dothraki from raping the Lamb women. Should be a page or two from your quote.

[Teal'c]

Jorah tells Dany "you are your brother's sister in truth" when she stops the Dothraki from raping the Lamb women. Should be a page or two from your quote.

Yes! AGOT page 668. I was thinking it was in a later book.

..."You are your brother's sister, in truth."

"Viserys?" She did not understand.

"No," [Jorah] answered. "Rhaegar."

***

"If your warriors would mount these women, let them take them gently and keep them for wives." Daenerys, AGOT, page 670.

***

I believe the proximity of the two quotes is evidence that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna, and not abduct and rape her. Jorah points out that Dany is like Rhaegar, in the context of her belief that the Lazarene women should be wed and not raped.

[Lady Octarina]

I believe the proximity of the two quotes is evidence that Rhaegar would marry Lyanna, and not abduct and rape her. Jorah points out that Dany is like Rhaegar, in the context of her belief that the Lazarene women should be wed and not raped.

Interesting, but it still leaves room for doubt. That is, Daenerys suggested they be kind to those women and marry them but never asked for those women's opinions; so, maybe Rhaegar did marry Lyanna, but it wasn't consensual?

Don't hate me, I'm just playing devil's advocate here :D

[Baelor Blackfyre]

But to me the problem circulating Howland Reed, Wylla, etc, is that while they may know the truth and be able to physically spread the word around, how much good will that do? Who would believe them?

They have kept it a secret this whole time, primarily to protect Jon or to keep good on Ned's promise. But even if they decided right now to start spreading the news like wildfire, who the hell is going to believe an old crannogman or some lowborn wet nurse? Even if Ashara Dayne is still alive I don't think anyone could believe the word of a woman who has such a dramatic history, Darkstar is possibly the only one whose word could hold any weight. I think even when Ned was alive and let's say he decided to finally tell the truth people would find it hard to believe, what? Prince Rhaegar had a bastard child with Lyanna? And you have been lying about it this whole time? Hmm.

But with Bloodraven, I would say his methods of conveying information would be much more believable, these crazy prophetic visions/dreams. And I think the word of a 100-year-old Targaryen bastard who used to be the Hand of the King and is living with the children of the forest is a lot more convincing, even if the only way he can convey messages is through the very "magical" means.

And whether it be Bloodraven who tells or Bran, the only person that really needs to learn the truth is Jon. And who better to tell him then the people who are very close to him. (Both in terms of their close proximity to him, but also the fact that one is his brother and the other is a dead relative who has most likely been helping him this whole time) And I think he is more likely to believe them over anyone else who may know the truth. And once he learns the truth, then he can really accept who he is, "kill the boy and let the man be born"

And on a side note, this is my first time posting on this particular topic, and let me say it's pretty awesome to take part in the famous R+L=J debate. ha

[King Doug]

In regards to Mormont's raven always saying "Corn, corn."

I think that is just the raven whenBloodraven is not controlling him. He can't be controlling him all the time. Just like Bran needs to rest when he wargs Summer.

[Baelor Blackfyre]

In regards to Mormont's raven always saying "Corn, corn."

I think that is just the raven whenBloodraven is not controlling him. He can't be controlling him all the time. Just like Bran needs to rest when he wargs Summer.

Yeah this is what I think as well, ha I kinda just brought up him saying corn to leave off on something funny and to lighten up my very long post.

[King Doug]

But to me the problem circulating Howland Reed, Wylla, etc, is that while they may know the truth and be able to physically spread the word around, how much good will that do? Who would believe them? They have kept it a secret this whole time, primarily to protect Jon or to keep good on Ned's promise. But even if they decided right now to start spreading the news like wildfire, who the hell is going to believe an old crannogman or some lowborn wet nurse?

I think it could be pretty powerful if Jon learned the truth and Howland Reed came to his side in support. The realm knows that Reed hasn't left his keep in years, and they know him and Ned are the only two survivors of the Tower of Joy (I think they know that about the ToJ). It would probably be most effective in the North, but hearing Reed tell his story and seeing Reed give Jon his full support could very well inspire many to support him.

[King Doug]

Yeah this is what I think as well, ha I kinda just brought up him saying corn to leave off on something funny and to lighten up my very long post.

It's be pretty sweet if Bloodraven had a sense of humor. People praying to the weirwood trees and he has a crow poop on them mid-prayer.

[Lady Octarina]

But to me the problem circulating Howland Reed, Wylla, etc, is that while they may know the truth and be able to physically spread the word around, how much good will that do? Who would believe them? They have kept it a secret this whole time, primarily to protect Jon or to keep good on Ned's promise. But even if they decided right now to start spreading the news like wildfire, who the hell is going to believe an old crannogman or some lowborn wet nurse? Even if Ashara Dayne is still alive I don't think anyone could believe the word of a woman who has such a dramatic history, Darkstar is possibly the only one whose word could hold any weight. I think even when Ned was alive and let's say he decided to finally tell the truth people would find it hard to believe, what? Prince Rhaegar had a bastard child with Lyanna? And you have been lying about it this whole time? Hmm. But with Bloodraven, I would say his methods of conveying information would be much more believable, these crazy prophetic visions/dreams. And I think the word of a 100-year-old Targaryen bastard who used to be the Hand of the King and is living with the children of the forest is a lot more convincing, even if the only way he can convey messages is through the very "magical" means. And whether it be Bloodraven who tells or Bran, the only person that really needs to learn the truth is Jon. And who better to tell him then the people who are very close to him. (Both in terms of their close proximity to him, but also the fact that one is his brother and the other is a dead relative who has most likely been helping him this whole time) And I think he is more likely to believe them over anyone else who may know the truth. And once he learns the truth, then he can really accept who he is, "kill the boy and let the man be born" And on a side note, this is my first time posting on this particular topic, and let me say it's pretty awesome to take part in the famous R+L=J debate. ha

I think the opposite is more likely. You'd have to be a firm believer (or a lunatic) to accept the truth if it comes to you in a dream. I agree that Wylla is not a good source here - on the other hand, there are people who seem to know she had some connection to Ned and believe she's Jon's mother, so they might believe her it she told them the truth. Ashara Dayne is still a relatively important lady, and there are many still alive who remember her; so if it's revealed she actually ran away under mysterious circumstances instead of the suicide everyone knows about, I do think they would believe in it (but I still think Ashara's word would weight more with Barristan, or the Martells). Darkstar, well... I know I mentioned him, but among all who might know the truth he's the less likely to have any credit with anyone. And Howland Reed is still a Lord, and everyone knows he's the only one who returned North with Eddard and the child, so...

And as I mentioned before, I do think there's a chance someone else might know - namely, Lord Hightower, uncle (?) to the late LC of the Kingsguard. It would be an interesting explanation as to why he's stayed locked on that tower for so long...

But you're right, Bloodraven would be the one with most credit here - if he was still able to walk around and tell people about it instead of just sending dreams. As far as dead people who are alive and know the truth goes, I stick with Ashara Dayne.