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Katydid

[BOOK SPOILERS] Jaime & Brienne

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Jaime and Brienne were the saving grace of the episode. The only scene in the episode that felt like the books come to life.

If you don't enjoy the show so much, why do you watch it ? I seriously don't understand you people if you have nothing but bitching and complaining .

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If you don't enjoy the show so much, why do you watch it ? I seriously don't understand you people if you have nothing but bitching and complaining .

I don't think it's that folks don't like the show, it's just disappointing to look forward to something and have it be a letdown in the end. Most of us who complain about this or that also like a lot or it's true, we wouldn't watch. You're free to love everything HBO does or hate a lot of it, the forum's for all. One could make the same point about reading complaint posts. If you don't like the complaints, don't read them.

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Like the bit where he clarifies her ancestry... "Of Tarth you say?... That would be Lord Selwyn? Are you his daughter? Hmmm... Stars and crescents..."

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I don't think it's that folks don't like the show, it's just disappointing to look forward to something and have it be a letdown in the end. Most of us who complain about this or that also like a lot or it's true, we wouldn't watch.

Thank you for explaining it so clearly.

I've had several disappointments from this season (my biggest gripe so far has been the softening of Cersei - I love the crazy, narcissistic bitch she is in the books, and I hope we get to see Lena play her that way soon), but there are also many things I've loved. Some straight from canon (ie Jaqen & Arya's interactions), some changes or additions (Arya & Tywin's scenes.)

But by far, the best thing they've gotten right so far is this first Jaime/Brienne scene. The dialogue was perfect, both actors nailed it, and their chemistry is spot-on from what we got in the books. I think Nik has a good handle on how to deliver Jaime, and Gwen (who has read the books) is already showing that she "gets" Brienne.

Both actors seem to understand how important this relationship is. And as long as the producers/HBO follow-suit, I'll be thrilled!

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Someone mentioned their first thought when they both squeezed into that tiny canoe was what an amazingly sturdy canoe that must be considering how big they both are, and Brienne in full armor too... which isn't very smart over open water... all Jaime would have to do is figure out how to get out of his hand-ties and dump the canoe - Brienne would sink like the Titanic.

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Yeah, I was hoping she'd have changed out of the armor & into some traveling garb by that point. Something lighter, so she can move quicker. And she was so awkward getting into the boat! I know Brienne is awkward by nature, but that really came across more as Gwen trying not to fall! :lol:

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Yeah, I was hoping she'd have changed out of the armor & into some traveling garb by that point. Something lighter, so she can move quicker. And she was so awkward getting into the boat! I know Brienne is awkward by nature, but that really came across more as Gwen trying not to fall! :lol:

lol

I noticed that too, and I wonder if she'll remain in armor, since they're much easier to recognize that way.

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If she does stay in her armor, then it's going to be a strange, awkward battle in the creek between them. He'll be quick as a cat in his light rags, and she'll be slowed down by the heavy armor.

Yeah, wardrobe really needs to get involved there. :lol:

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Haha yeah, that crossed my mind too. Thanks to the books' description of all the men falling to their watery doom because of wearing full armour, it's ingrained in my unconscious. Shit, whenever I play Skyrim and I'm swimming around in my heavy armour I'm like "this is so unrealistic" :P

But wasn't Brienne still pretty heavily armoured at this point in the book? The only difference being them both being in a much bigger boat. Meh. Only the tiniest of quibbles that. So long as he calls her "wench" and we carry on seeing some of this hilarious banter, I'll be pleased.

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I love the banter between them. Easily the best part of this week's episode. One thing has me worried, though. If Roose Bolton is still behind them with Robb, how can they be brought to him?

I'm starting to worry Brienne or the BwB will dehand Jaime, not Vargo Hoat.

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While obviously I'd love to see Vargo Hoat and the rest of the Bloody Mummers on-screen, I have been thinking for a while now that it could be the BwB that do the 'de-handing'. They have been setting up the BwB this season in the dialogue at Harrenhal, and I guess I just find it hard to believe that the series will manage to include not just one but TWO bands of outlaws. I know, I know, the Brave Companions are sellswords not outlaws, but will HBO really have the time in the plotline or the ability to cast so many characters? Will they dare risk confusing the rest of the audience with introducing two separate bands of outlandish men wandering a (sort of) similar area?

I don't know, I could be wrong, and will be pleasantly surprised if I am.

The only thing that would greatly upset me is if Brienne is the one who cuts off his hand. Just.....no. It would destroy their entire dynamic, not to mention it would be a terrible deviation from the Brienne of the books, who would never do such a thing.

If they have her 'accidentally' cut it off in a fight with him, that would still be an awful, awful way to go about it.

I think the brilliance of Vargo Hoat being the one to cut off Jaime's hand is that Hoat was just making a stupid move in his own little 'game', and it really had nothing to do with Jaime. What I mean is, it wasn't 'personal'. It was just a random act -- not an act of vengeance or even 'justice'. If someone like Brienne (gods forbid!) or even the BwB cuts off his hand, the implications would be much different.

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I'm starting to worry Brienne or the BwB will dehand Jaime, not Vargo Hoat.

I hardly think it's going to be Brienne!! :D That would 100% destroy their entire storyline.

Her sympathy for him starts when he loses his hand and she nurses him through it all, and he would hardly feel kindly towards anyine who maimed him. Just imagine him arriving back at KL with Brienne, and having his meeting with Tywin. Cue scene in the Hand's quarters::-

"Sorry Dad - some great oaf of a woman chopped my sword hand off, so I'm a bit useless at present. But hey - I brought her along with me anyway. Want to meet her?"

Tywin's jaw drops.

"Oh yeah, Dad - forgot to say. Nice sword you left for me in my quarters. Valerian steel and all. Thanks. But it's a bit too good for me, so I've given it to her. She's not a bad swordsman really."

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The Clegane idea has potential but that would cause a lot of problems down the line as Tywin continues to make use of him. I can't see it.

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Jamie can't possibly lose his hand this season. I'm hoping for midway through season 3, in episode 4 or 5.

Mostly because they're relationship really changes after that point, and Jamie's arrogance needs to be established beforehand. Lol.....before...hand.... :rolleyes:

Also, somewhat more importantly, Jamie needs to be established as the ultimate badass! This is, IMO, a huge problem with both the show and the books. Jaime is always talking about how his sword hand defined him, and yet we only ever see him in one fight! (vs. Ned)

If Jaime loses his hand at this point, people will think "Oh, that guy who stood around doing not much and then sat in a cage for a whole season lost a hand? Sucks for him I guess?"

I'm hoping for atleast two epic sword fights before he loses his hand: one against some soldiers (possibly either Robb's or his captor's) to show him dealing swift death without mercy, and one against Brienne, to demonstrate how evenly matched they are.

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Jamie needs to be established as the ultimate badass! This is, IMO, a huge problem with both the show and the books. Jaime is always talking about how his sword hand defined him, and yet we only ever see him in one fight!

Why is it a problem? Why do we need to SEE Jaime fighting any more in the TV show than in the books - in fact, we already got a better one on one fight in the TV Ned-Jaime scene. We know in the books that he nearly fought his way to kill Robb in the Whispering Wood, but again, that is merely related and not shown. (Can't recall if it was mentioned in passing in the TV episode where he is captured.)

You are also missing the point that his "reputation" is a key element about the character of Jaime himself, something which NCW has mentioned several times in interviews. Jaime is known as "Kingslayer" - people just put that tag against him and judge him beccause of it, never bothering about 'why' he did it. Brienne is one of them at first. So over the years Jaime has developed this arrogant veneer and verbal armour against the world to deal with all the taunts and disdain, even while knowing that his actions saved thousands of lives.

It's only when he reveals his story in the baths at Harrenhal that Brienne really starts to see behind this veneer and the public 'Kingslayer' tag, and begins to understand the man Jaime, as distinct from the reputation Jaime. Similarly, Jaime learns to look behind the initial outward appearances with Brienne, and he starts to understand her as a person. In their own ways, Jaime and Brienne are both defined by reputation and how most people 'see' them, rather than who they really are. HOW that understanding develops is the core of the J/B relationship.

Jaime has a fearsome (and fully justified) reputation as a fighter and swordsman, but again, in the books we only hear about it, we never see it until the fight with Brienne, where he is weak from imprisonment and has hands chained. We find out that he was knighted at an early age, that he was the youngest ever Kingsguard member (you don't get that if you aren't a briliant fighter), and that Tyrion never bet against Jaime in the lists. Brienne later admits to herself that she may not have been able to stand against a fully-fit and unchained Jaime.

When we get to Jaime dealing with the loss of his hand and functioning as Lord Commander of the KG, as well as negotiating in his AFFC campaign in the Riverlands, we see how incredibly important this reputation is. Kingslayer, Fighter and Swordsman Jaime is so well known and feared that no-one is game to challenge him, even one-handed. The way he has to outwardly play on his previous reputation as a swordsman and badass Lannister, evenwhile struggling to make the new reality match up to it, is quite critical to his behaviour in later ASOS and AFFC.

ETA: They've already shown Jaime killing a distant cousin in his escape attempt. If they also give us the J/B swordfight, then we will have far more really Badass Jaime on TV than we got in the books!

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itll probably be clegane to cut it off at this point in this new story

my bet is that it gets bitten off by ghost. that wolf has to be somewhere

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Yes, I understand that people's perception of him is very important, but his self-identity as a warrior is also key. I think one of the most important quotes about Jamie is when Cersei says he "Only feels alive when he's fighting or fucking". This guy lives to kill, and we need to see that. We get only a glimpse when he fights Ned.

The show would benefit greatly from having Jamie display some combat mastery, and the joy he gets from killing people. We need to be shown that this guy is badass with a sword and that his skill makes him who he is, or the loss of his hand doesn't have as much meaning. This is a flaw in the novels that I hope the show has the wisdom to correct. Once his hand is gone, there's no going back.

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So far as Jaime's dehanding goes, I think the best they could do is have Vargo Hoat do the dehanding, but bring him to one of the Freys in the Riverlands. They are about to royally screw Robb over, so they might as well develop them.

The BwB makes sense in a contrived sort of way, but them hanging Jaime on the spot would be more likely and I don't see them just letting him go. Then again, I didn't see Jaime murdering one of his relatives, but that didn't stop them from writing it in.

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