[book spoilers] ARYA. discuss.

[boojam]

its a chore they chose though. there is no reason that season 2 needs to end at the same point COK did. There is no dragon moment that the show needs to end on in ACOK. They could have done 2/3 of the book and ended ACOK 3-4 episodes into season 3. They are doing that for ASOS. They had all the time they needed to flesh out these storyline. they jus chose not too.

You tell me how D and D would have known they were going to get a 3rd season?

HBO was a little slower this year than last in green lighting a third season.

HBO waited until past episode 3 to give D&D a go.... and even though my strong hunch is that they will get a fourth it's up to HBO to make that decision.

I know D&D have a working template that SoS will be two seasons, but we can't be sure that will really happen.

So you see the bind they were in this season.

Even if one were to cut some of the useless exposition , most of it sex fringing, we are now up to chapter 62(Tyrion XIV) by the end of E9 next week,the essence of the story is there.

I am guessing a large bulk of E10 will be Daenerys IV and a quick Daenerys V. How they stick in parts of the next 6 chapters is gonna be brief. How they get a little of Jamie and Brienne from SoS I don't know. A ton of stuff to put into two hours.

I am gonna guess that out of the approximate 50+a little min. next week won't be exclusively Blackwater. HBO could make E9 or E10 run 5 to 10 min. longer but we almost never know that until the actually showing.

Using Arya's story at Harrenhal was just impossible in 10 hours, I thought they did a great job of modifying it. They kept the essentials of Jaqen's story which is solely George's twist.

[Mulled Wino]

you're not crazy -- i just thought it was portrayed poorly if that is what they were going for -- i.e., say he's long gone -- b/c in the show it looks like a couple of hours at most, which shouldn't make it impossible -- not to mention the fact that jaqen never says i can't do it b/c he's long gone -- he just reiterated the same argument he made when she asked him to kill amory -- i.e., you can't rush these things. but the fact that he rushed w/amory seems to be a point against that argument is all i was getting at.

but, i can concede that maybe this is what was meant -- i just didn't love the way the conversation went down.

I can see it both ways. I was eagerly awaiting their version of weasel soup so i knew it wasnt going to be tywin.

The weasel soup was one of my 2 favorite scenes in CoK. Like the Jon Snow/Qhorin hunt and fight, it was deleted. Oh well.

[Greywolf2375]

Disappointed in how they turned her arc in this and the last episode. Weasel Soup would not have fit in to the story the way they portrayed things happening, but would have been nice to see - to me that was one of the things that helped Jaqen decide to give her the coin, how she was able to be part of that and play it out.

Not having her name Tywin as soon as Lorch was dead is a mistake in writing - they showed us she knows Tywin is dangerous, yet this impetuous little fireball waits?

[Mulled Wino]

Arya stark is my favorite character and im cool with the adaptations. Im not fully satisfied, but i understand most of them.

My wife and her sister are non-readers and they still have Arya on badass status.

Cant say i wouldnt like to see her stuck needle through someones neck.

I think the scene with Gendry is sufficient to remind everyone what Arya's all about, that and her bravery in general.

[boojam]

Not having her name Tywin as soon as Lorch was dead is a mistake in writing - they showed us she knows Tywin is dangerous, yet this impetuous little fireball waits?

Well... it's the same in the book, George had already put her through enough horror , and she is learning, and she gains more 'street smarts', ..., but not enough ... she names two unimportant louts before realizing that she could have name somebody who would make a difference.

That was George's decision to develop her that way.

At least on the show the first victim was a real lout who deserved it.

The second was a situation that saved her skin.

In the book she did not even think to take out Tywin until he was really long long gone. So I give D and D credit for her coming around faster, tho not fast enough.

If you looked at those chapters vs. time per sequence per episode, one can see now there would be no time for Weasel Soup.

I did think that some variant of that would happen with Jaqen being check mated into freeing her, tho I did expect to see him in action, sort of missed that.

[Mulled Wino]

Disappointed in how they turned her arc in this and the last episode. Weasel Soup would not have fit in to the story the way they portrayed things happening, but would have been nice to see - to me that was one of the things that helped Jaqen decide to give her the coin, how she was able to be part of that and play it out.

Not having her name Tywin as soon as Lorch was dead is a mistake in writing - they showed us she knows Tywin is dangerous, yet this impetuous little fireball waits?

She went to plan b, escaping with her friends. Perfectly plausible.

[Silverx2]

Not naming tywin right away wasn't just because she was "slow" on the uptake.

Tywin treated her well, She was relatively safe while he was around, and from a couple of instances she ate better then most of tywins own men. Twin took her from sleeping in a puddle of mud to spending her nights indoors. I think ultimately Tywin leaving caught her off guard, im sure she thought she had more time, maybe she expected tywin to say "ill leave tomorrow at first dawn" which would give her time to talk to JH. Instead tywin said "ill ride at once" this left no time for her to plan with JH.

[Greywolf2375]

Well... it's the same in the book, George had already put her through enough horror , and she is learning, and she gains more 'street smarts', ..., but not enough ... she names two unimportant louts before realizing that she could have name somebody who would make a difference.

That was George's decision to develop her that way.

At least on the show the first victim was a real lout who deserved it.

The second was a situation that saved her skin.

In the book she did not even think to take out Tywin until he was really long long gone. So I give D and D credit for her coming around faster, tho not fast enough.

That's the problem though - the show tells us she knows he is a target by staring at his neck with a knife and has told us that she knows she sometimes needs to run to get it taken care of immediately like Lorch. And then drops the ball with it by ignoring it.

[Reposado]

You tell me how D and D would have known they were going to get a 3rd season?

not sure how that's relevant. if they don't get a third season, then not all of ACOK gets into the show. Not a big deal. It's not like the story ended there

[boojam]

not sure how that's relevant. if they don't get a third season, then not all of ACOK gets into the show. Not a big deal. It's not like the story ended there

But the show sure would have, not season, no show, it's HBO's call.

[Reposado]

But the show sure would have, not season, no show, it's HBO's call.

so why does it matter where they leave off?

[Mulled Wino]

I like the idea of HBO letting the viewers know which books the seasons will mirror personally.

[Reposado]

I like the idea of HBO letting the viewers know which books the seasons will mirror personally.

but that is going to end after this season at the latest. book three will be split and then, there will be events from books 3 4 and 5 all helping simultaneously. season 3 will be part of book 3. season 4(if it happens) will be parts of 3,4,5. season 5-6 will be parts of 4 and 5 and possibly beyond.(if they get that far) no need to cram all of two into one season just because book one worked out that way.

the narrative is suffering for it

[Morrigan]

If you've seen the 4th and 5th seasons of The Wire, you'd see there is really no limit to the horrible acts HBO can made their child characters commit.

No need to get that far, just check season 1, Bodie/Poot/Wallace anyone?

[boojam]

so why does it matter where they leave off?

Have to ask D and D ... I don't know what they anticipated , I have not heard that HBO told D and D when they green lighted season 2 that HBO would green light a season 3.

It's a question someone should ask D and D.

Despite HBO's enthusiasm last fall (only public one I know of ), HBO had nothing to say about season three until about 3+ weeks into season 2.

So D and D had to make the teleplay decisions about season 2 last spring ,not knowing, I guess, about a season 3.

Why they have stuffed book 2 into one season is something one will have to ask them.

I do know they had said last year that SoS would have be 2 seasons... but they did not say why CoK had to be one season.

[Gogossos]

Wow, a lot of people have given up on TV-Arya's character already. Just because she didn't kill a guard in that exact moment in the show doesn't mean she isn't going to kill one in the same manner in the next two episodes or next season.

I said earlier that the plot will probably catch up with the books quickly enough but the character might not. Whitering explained better what I meant:

What has she done in the show to convince Jaqen that she would be a good recruit? She saved him and has taken on a different persona, is that it? In the book he genuinly liked her. I really like this Arya, and there are lots of reasons to admire her character, but I don't think he has any reason to like her the way he did in the books and certainly no reason to see her potential and ability to learn. Heck, they haven't really pressed that home while in the books it is kind of central to her character. She won't learn things she considers useless but nobody will put in more work and try harder to learn things she considers worthwile. We haven't gotten the lessons about barefeet or much elsel, we haven't seen as much of her intuition and she only goes to Jaqen when she is desperate.

There are lots of tiny things that are in the books which are not critical to the adaptation's plot but are critical to Arya's character. Basically D&D should have decided that Arya is one of the main characters and her turning point, a critical juncture, was Harrenhal. She met and impressed Jaqen, one of the super expensive assassins in the world. While she spent most of ASOS intending to head to Riverrun (and family, safety, place in the world, etc) most of that was pulled right underneath her by the RW. She was then left alone, believing her only two remaining siblings were in no position to help her. So she follows Jaqen's path. So, for me, there are three critical ingredients to her narrative: she suffers a lot and is put in desperate situations numerous times; she has the inner strength to survive; she is talented and is focused enough to be a Faceless (Wo)man, an elite profession. The weasel soup was definitely part of the third ingredient, it gave Jaqen enough of a glimpse into her potential talents. The fact that D&D can nonchalantly write off one of the most important moments of one of the main characters (not to mention it's popularity) fills me with a certain uneasiness.

[turdle]

its a chore they chose though. there is no reason that season 2 needs to end at the same point COK did. There is no dragon moment that the show needs to end on in ACOK. They could have done 2/3 of the book and ended ACOK 3-4 episodes into season 3. They are doing that for ASOS. They had all the time they needed to flesh out these storyline. they jus chose not too.

completely agree, except that they aren't even giving acok a full season. they have crammed it down into 8/10 of season with the exception of a few storylines. the excuse that they didn't have enough time to fit the story in doesn't work with a tv show. HBO would love to keep this show going for 20 years if it keeps the ratings, they don't have any desire to "get it over with."

[summer_stark]

I said earlier that the plot will probably catch up with the books quickly enough but the character might not. Whitering explained better what I meant: There are lots of tiny things that are in the books which are not critical to the adaptation's plot but are critical to Arya's character. Basically D&D should have decided that Arya is one of the main characters and her turning point, a critical juncture, was Harrenhal. She met and impressed Jaqen, one of the super expensive assassins in the world. While she spent most of ASOS intending to head to Riverrun (and family, safety, place in the world, etc) most of that was pulled right underneath her by the RW. She was then left alone, believing her only two remaining siblings were in no position to help her. So she follows Jaqen's path. So, for me, there are three critical ingredients to her narrative: she suffers a lot and is put in desperate situations numerous times; she has the inner strength to survive; she is talented and is focused enough to be a Faceless (Wo)man, an elite profession. The weasel soup was definitely part of the third ingredient, it gave Jaqen enough of a glimpse into her potential talents. The fact that D&D can nonchalantly write off one of the most important moments of one of the main characters (not to mention it's popularity) fills me with a certain uneasiness.

i agree with this post -- obv since i started this thread. still, i was thinking about weasel soup v. what the show did, and it struck me that the weasel soup scene has very little to do w/arya -- both the guard killing and weasel soup have little to do with her. the differences are: she isn't thinking big picture, she is only thinking of herself -- and the main thing is that she didn't escape on her own. however, in terms of the actual importance of weasel soup (my favorite scene in acok), it seems now in thinking about it, that it is less important to her storyline than her reasoning behind it.

the important things are:

1) she pulls her clever trick on jaqen,

here, the clever trick fell flat in the show -- which really bothered me. they tried to pick up where the book left off w/r/t naming tywin -- only thinking about it as he was leaving, and not finding jaqen in time. however, in the show, this makes a lot less sense than it did in the books. she obv considered killing tywin already -- as we saw from the whole knife/neck sequence -- so she didn't think about it at the last minute as she did in the books.

plus, having constant interaction with him and knowing his plots against robb, it seems silly that she wouldn't name him (and the whole argument that she was safe under tywin makes little sense since a) she did name him, just too late; and b ) she thought about killing him herself, so obv this wasnt a major concern for her). add that to the facts that she is younger and has more pressing concerns in the book (e.g., daily ass kicking from weese), she never interacts with tywin, and is not privy to his plots. yet she still tries to name him -- albeit too late -- but still, the show never gives a concise reason why she waited so long.

so, this plot failure makes her seem much less clever on the show than in the books. say what you will about the fact that she waited in the books, but i'm not buying it -- esp since she clearly thought about killing tywin -- and she clearly wanted to kill tywin as evidenced by the late naming of him. therefore, failure to name him sooner is a mark against her in the show.

2 ) she effectively plans a coup.

she can foresee that freeing the northmen will mean that robb's men will overtake harrenhal from the lannisters. The failure to use any name to effect any change outside of her own situation makes her seem less mature -- in the books she considers the fact that there are enough northmen to overtake amory's men -- and just needs help with the execution -- so she effectively plans a coup -- though the logistics are handled by jaqen. this is the important part of weasel soup to her development -- she is finally bright enough to realize consequences and strategize to achieve her goals.

in the show, she merely uses the last name for her own benefit, showing her to be not only helpless, but also showing no growth in her time at harrenhal. her realization that tywin would have been the smart name starts her on a path to realizing that she needs to do more to help -- maybe this can still be achieved in the show, since she leaves right after the naming instead of sticking around harrenhal under roose.

3) she is clever enough to plan and execute her own escape --

that in and of itself is a big deal. it shows her development from helpless child to mature adult (with the free the northmen plan being a sort of transition from one to the other)

the way she used her last name to get help -- it seemed strange for one thing (as i went on about at length earlier in this thread), plus it makes her helpless. whereas in the books she not only plans the escape, she executes is, and a guard. those three things are pivotal to her development.

4) kills in cold blood

she deliberately kills a guard who has done her no harm -- this is the single most important part of her growth at harrenhal in terms of her path to being a fm. this can still happen, but at this point in the show, she does not have the development, or the personal hardship required to be so cold-blooded (beat downs by weese, killing several men intentionally as self-defense, general sense of fear at harrenhal).

so, all in all, as much as i lamented the deletion of weasel soup and its importance, i think that the important part of weasel soup was the plan to free northmen knowing that they would be able to take over the castle. since they didn't have the whole northmen sub plot, a major growth opportunity is lost that they haven't substituted as of yet. the only other point of weasel soup is to show the way she tricked jaqen into helping, and how much of a bamf jaqen truly is -- both of those two things are accomplished in the show.

however, the loss of her maturity in realizing she has to use the third name to effect real change and planning the coup is the real loss to her development. the fact that it is substituted with jaqen helping her escape means that those things are lost, along with two of her most important developments at harrenhal -- being independent and clever enough to figure out how to escape on her own, and intentionally killing a guard. the epic fails of her storyline this season imo.

can they bring it back and effect her development in other ways next year? probably. but the fact remains that at this point in the books, she is well on her way to becoming a FM, and that is why jaqen gives her the coin.

[summer_stark]

so, after reading tv w/o pity (a board for non-book readers) i have to re-assess my feelings about arya's story line. for one thing, most viewers think she doesn't name tywin b/c she'd be worse off if he was dead, so unless she had an escape plan, naming him would be a bad idea. they don't see her timing in naming tywin as odd (since he was leaving to fight robb). they also think that it was definitely time to leave b/c of the mountain, so i was glad people remembered how crazy he is and the implications for her.

also, most people think that she is getting way more ruthless b/c she didn't flinch at the killing of several guards, and shrugged at the thought of not having honor. so her cold bloodedness is starting to come out. also, most people think she will be a warrior -- especially based on her fangirl description of rhaenys and visenya.

so maybe we are just being too hard on the show at this point. it makes me happy that people view her the way i do. i wish i could remove my memories of the books just for the course of each season . . .

[Mulled Wino]

so, after reading tv w/o pity (a board for non-book readers) i have to re-assess my feelings about arya's story line. for one thing, most viewers think she doesn't name tywin b/c she'd be worse off if he was dead, so unless she had an escape plan, naming him would be a bad idea. they don't see her timing in naming tywin as odd (since he was leaving to fight robb). they also think that it was definitely time to leave b/c of the mountain, so i was glad people remembered how crazy he is and the implications for her. also, most people think that she is getting way more ruthless b/c she didn't flinch at the killing of several guards, and shrugged at the thought of not having honor. so her cold bloodedness is starting to come out. also, most people think she will be a warrior -- especially based on her fangirl description of rhaenys and visenya. so maybe we are just being too hard on the show at this point. it makes me happy that people view her the way i do. i wish i could remove my memories of the books just for the course of each season . . .

The 2 non readers I watch with still think she's cold blooded and a badass.