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summer_stark

[book spoilers] ARYA. discuss.

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and additionally, he wouldn't suspect that she'd gotten all the way to harrenhal. no reason tywin should have any thought that she could be arya

...Exactly how many northern, high-born girls are running around Westeros, ready to get captured by Lannisters? It's very likely for northern lords to take their ten-year old girls with them and letting them be captured, right?

Arya has been sitting around Harrenhal long enough for Tywin to learn that she's escaped. And even if not, he should have put some more work into learning who she is.

Not to mention that Amory Lorch got killed just minutes after running after her, after a certain message that she looked at just minutes before disappeared.

I'm sorry but the whole Harrenhal story makes Tywin look like a complete and utter fool.

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I believe in the book that Tywin didnt know about Arya-Cersei was keeping it on the downlow because she didnt want it getting out.

Of course that would require a huge WTF moment when Tywin gets to KL and finds no Arya.

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Which impacts the story later on when the substitute Jeyne Poole for Arya. By that point noone had seen her in forever and could easily be presumed dead. Instead, when they go to substitute JP for AS, Tywin SHOULD know that Arya was alive and well at Harrenhall. Little ripples in the story that should have impact a couple of seasons from now.

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I think some people suspect that JP is not Arya, even in KL. (for example Jaime). But they don't give a shit.

RB wants Winterfell and he gets it.

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seems to me a meeting with JH in the future will seem contrived, arya is supposed to be on the run and JH is well either at Harrenhall or changingfaces and moving to Oldtown, if he is part of the garrison that chases arya, it will seem contrived that he is one of those that meets up with her.

In the book it's Jaqen who comes to Arya for the last name , I think he says explicitly that he has to leave and be somewhere else.

In the last episode he does not say it explicitly but I do think he says something that implies that he is in a hurry to get away.

My guess is he will met her early in episode 10 giving her the coin and the instructions. He may no longer be in Lannister uniform.

After as a FM he seems to do anything, go anywhere ... be anybody he wants, so he's not a Harrenhal anymore.

They can to the face changing thing then.

What's odd is too think we would never see Tom Wlaschiha again, if the next three books are followed.

I don't know what D&D have in mind, since Arya will show up in Braavos and he mentions she may see him there.

There is still a chance, I think slight, that Arya may kill a picket duty Harrenhal guard, but doubt it.

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Just sticking with the TV show: I'm upset that they wiped out the Tywin/Arya plot that quickly. I was really enjoying that line, and then they just end it immediately.
Just sticking with the TV show: I'm upset that they wiped out the Tywin/Arya plot that quickly. I was really enjoying that line, and then they just end it immediately.

Yes but, that storyline should never have happened anyway - it pretty much ruined the Harrenhal saga, replacing all the good stuff with this absurd father/daughter relationship. The scenes in isolation were good because the actors were good BUT Tywin will get plenty of time to be Tywin in later seasons - he's also now not as bad-ass.

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I'm maybe hoping for too much, but did we see them (Arya, Gendry and Hot pie) outside the gates of Harrenhal, or did we just see them leave Harrenhal? Since I truly want the weasel soup scene to be in, I'm hoping they'll get caught on their way out and get ushered back to Harrenhal. Jaqen hasn't truly left and rescues them, with the help of Biter and Rorge with soup directly from the kitchens (Instead of the Northern fellas in the cells in the books) and has his name unsaid, gives the coin to Arya. Arya then tells Gendry and Hot Pie about her escape plan and does actually slit the guards throat after dropping the coin!

This feels way too unlikely, and way too far fetched, but I just want some sort of weasel soup scene to take place. Since the last episode is named Valar Morghulis, there's still some sort of hope.

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Actually it was this: Can u kill tywin now? No Can you help me espcape No Kiil yourself then Please take back my name Ok, can u help me escape now? No Kill yourself then Ok ill hell u escape if u take my name back. Good, i win. Big difference from how you posted the conversation

No -- that's not how it happened. she didn't ask for his help until after she named him. big difference from what you're saying, and the reason i'm saying it was illogical. that difference is the exact reason why i disliked that scene.

This was how it went:

arya: where were you?

Jaqen: a man has patrol duty.

arya: tywin was here now gone.

jaqen: give man a name.

arya: how long after i give name does it take?

jaqen: min hr month. death is certain time is not.

arya: tywin's taking army to fight robb. i need him dead now.

jaqen: this i cannot do.

arya: you promised you'd help me.

jaqen: help wasn't promised, only death was promised. give another name -- give any name.

arya: and you'l kill them, anybody?

jaqen: by seven new and old gods -- i swear it.

arya: alright-- jaqen h'ghar --

jaqen: a girl gives a man his own name...unname me. please.

arya: i'll unname you, if you help me and my friends escape.

jaqen: this would require more than life, not part of bargain.

arya: fine. jaqen hghar.

jaqen: girl lacks honor.

arya: shrug.

she named him after he said he couldnt kill tywin right away -- then she said she'd take it back ... not if he killed tywin now, but if he helped her escape -- why? where did that come from? was she planning on going to kill tywin herself? why not press him to get him to kill tywin instead? she just dropped the tywin thing altogether when she already had him on the ropes -- she had named him and he was upset -- she couldve said then go do it now -- instead she said then help me escape. what? why?

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I'm maybe hoping for too much, but did we see them (Arya, Gendry and Hot pie) outside the gates of Harrenhal, or did we just see them leave Harrenhal? Since I truly want the weasel soup scene to be in, I'm hoping they'll get caught on their way out and get ushered back to Harrenhal. Jaqen hasn't truly left and rescues them, with the help of Biter and Rorge with soup directly from the kitchens (Instead of the Northern fellas in the cells in the books) and has his name unsaid, gives the coin to Arya. Arya then tells Gendry and Hot Pie about her escape plan and does actually slit the guards throat after dropping the coin!

This feels way too unlikely, and way too far fetched, but I just want some sort of weasel soup scene to take place. Since the last episode is named Valar Morghulis, there's still some sort of hope.

I am sure we a long past Weasel Soup happening, but there is still the slight chance Arya will get her kill in another way.

Was it not odd in this last episode that we see Biter and Rorge? They had seem to vanish.

Tho in the book , I think it's Rorge, at the slightest mention of Jaqen's name he cowers away from Arya... D&D did not follow up on that.

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Tho in the book , I think it's Rorge, at the slightest mention of Jaqen's name he cowers away from Arya... D&D did not follow up on that.

i thought the same exact thing -- totally added to the mystery and general bamf-ness of jaqen...

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she named him after he said he couldnt kill tywin right away -- then she said she'd take it back ... not if he killed tywin now, but if he helped her escape -- why? where did that come from? was she planning on going to kill tywin herself? why not press him to get him to kill tywin instead? she just dropped the tywin thing altogether when she already had him on the ropes -- she had named him and he was upset -- she couldve said then go do it now -- instead she said then help me escape. what? why?

Tywin was probably a few miles away by then, it wouldn't have been quicker if Jaqen had had the burden of his own name on the death list. We would probably kill as quickly as possible in either case so that he might get on with his original mission.

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Tho in the book , I think it's Rorge, at the slightest mention of Jaqen's name he cowers away from Arya... D&D did not follow up on that.

Correct.

It feels like D&D focus on tinier details in King's Landing concerning Tyrion and Cersei, but leave out details in other places. Rorge's fear for example, and Arya's storyline, same with Jon's. To me it feels like they focus on King's Landing, and they feel like the other places only contribute to sub-plots. It seems like they follow the books more closely with the King's Landing plot as well. :dunno:

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No -- that's not how it happened. she didn't ask for his help until after she named him. big difference from what you're saying, and the reason i'm saying it was illogical. that difference is the exact reason why i disliked that scene.

This was how it went:

arya: where were you?

Jaqen: a man has patrol duty.

arya: tywin was here now gone.

jaqen: give man a name.

arya: how long after i give name does it take?

jaqen: min hr month. death is certain time is not.

arya: tywin's taking army to fight robb. i need him dead now.

jaqen: this i cannot do.

arya: you promised you'd help me.

jaqen: help wasn't promised, only death was promised. give another name -- give any name.

arya: and you'l kill them, anybody?

jaqen: by seven new and old gods -- i swear it.

arya: alright-- jaqen h'ghar --

jaqen: a girl gives a man his own name...unname me. please.

arya: i'll unname you, if you help me and my friends escape.

jaqen: this would require more than life, not part of bargain.

arya: fine. jaqen hghar.

jaqen: girl lacks honor.

arya: shrug.

she named him after he said he couldnt kill tywin right away -- then she said she'd take it back ... not if he killed tywin now, but if he helped her escape -- why? where did that come from? was she planning on going to kill tywin herself? why not press him to get him to kill tywin instead? she just dropped the tywin thing altogether when she already had him on the ropes -- she had named him and he was upset -- she couldve said then go do it now -- instead she said then help me escape. what? why?

She asked for help, no? (his respones- help wasnt promised only deatg) He denied any help, so ahe got him to help her.

Thats how i followed it, he denied her request for help, so she said his name. The quotes you put up clearly show her asking for help first and being denied.

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She asked for help, no? He denied any help, so ahe got him to help her. Thats how i followed it, he denied her request for help, so she said his name.

she asked for him to kill tywin, he said no -- she pouted that he said he would help her (i.e., in this context the "help" was killing tywin) i'm not sure what the misunderstanding here is -- i think it's fairly clear that she went from asking to kill tywin to saying oh you cant do that right now, then kill yourself -- no you dont want to kill yourself -- then help me escape...when the logical end of that conversation was ...then go kill tywin right now. which, incidentally, as far as the show is concerned, shouldn't be difficult for jaqen considering he killed amory w/in 30 seconds of her request. it just seems contrived that she dropped the tywin thing --

to me, it's a plot hole. but whatever -- if that's how you interpret it, then rock on bro. i just see it differently.

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The Arya storyline this season has been disappointing, but by this point I wasn't surprised by the changes in this episode and more or less expected them. Despite the great acting and quality of the sets, costumes and props, the story line has very little to compare to the book and the writing has often been lacking.

Harrenhal was a place of terror and danger even when she was working under Roose Bolton, but working under Tywin she was argueably in the safest place in the 7 kingdoms for a commoner. She had Jaqen kill some people, but none of them were the same as the books.

I predicted that she would use her last kill to escape and several people told me they would never do that, but here we are. Basicly the things that match the book are that she was a prisoner at Harrenhal who had Jaqen kill some people for her and then she escaped with Gendry and Hotpie. All of her other experiences at Harrenhal were changed, and generally made for a much more pleasant experience for Arya. They should have at least had a scene with Ser Gregor and Arya alone, where he threatens her, to give her more motivation to escape, and motivation for Gendry and Hotpie to want to come.

It's kind of unclear why TV Gendry and Hotpie are coming with her, or why she wants them to without the bonding moments of wandering the wilderness or interacting more at Harrenhal. With no Roose at Harrenhal, will Bolton ever meet up with Jamie? Who will cut off Jamie's hand? Vargo was Tywin's man originally, but Harrenhal is not taken then will he be a Stark ally from the start or cut completely or how will they explain his loyalty change? I really enjoyed Arya's Harrenhal story line in CoK, and despite the generally stellar acting, the TV story line was rather boring and contrived.

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she asked for him to kill tywin, he said no -- she pouted that he said he would help her (i.e., in this context the "help" was killing tywin) i'm not sure what the misunderstanding here is -- i think it's fairly clear that she went from asking to kill tywin to saying oh you cant do that right now, then kill yourself -- no you dont want to kill yourself -- then help me escape...when the logical end of that conversation was ...then go kill tywin right now. which, incidentally, as far as the show is concerned, shouldn't be difficult for jaqen considering he killed amory w/in 30 seconds of her request. it just seems contrived that she dropped the tywin thing --

to me, it's a plot hole. but whatever -- if that's how you interpret it, then rock on bro. i just see it differently.

Right back atcha!

To clarify my point:

I thought tywin was already gone, i only saw the ep once so far (after pool and bbq and some libations). I thought tywin was one so she moved on immediately to the escape plot after realizing that we the only way to get help from him.

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she named him after he said he couldnt kill tywin right away -- then she said she'd take it back ... not if he killed tywin now, but if he helped her escape -- why? where did that come from? was she planning on going to kill tywin herself? why not press him to get him to kill tywin instead? she just dropped the tywin thing altogether when she already had him on the ropes -- she had named him and he was upset -- she couldve said then go do it now -- instead she said then help me escape. what? why?

He explains to Arya why he can't do it NOW (this appears in the book too but worded differently).

Since they do not have time to do Weasel Soup , why does not escape sound like the logical thing to ask for?

Actually it shows she is quick on her feet, because she realizes she is going to have to trick Jaqen, which she does.

Jaqen has to go out of his FM box... the same thing happens in the book and I have always thought this is why he gives her the coin and the words and says something about Braavos.

I think he has been evaluating her as a FM for the FM.

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It's kind of unclear why TV Gendry and Hotpie are coming with her, or why she wants them to without the bonding moments of wandering the wilderness or interacting more at Harrenhal. With no Roose at Harrenhal, will Bolton ever meet up with Jamie? Who will cut off Jamie's hand? Vargo was Tywin's man originally, but Harrenhal is not taken then will he be a Stark ally from the start or cut completely or how will they explain his loyalty change? I really enjoyed Arya's Harrenhal story line in CoK, and despite the generally stellar acting, the TV story line was rather boring and contrived.

Having 10 one hours episodes explains all this, think this through again.

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Having 10 one hours episodes explains all this, think this through again.
actually, thinking through this again doesn't change anything -- if you're referring to the fact that they're prisoners, the answer is -- so what? how is that worse in this context, where hot pie and gendry each get to do what they do best. we hear no reason from hot pie that makes us think that he will be the subject of torture -- same for gendry. all we get is that they were brought in and initially possibly subject to torture -- tywin squashed that -- the hangings are for the bwb -- who they are going to leave camp to find. not a real sense of danger. and how is being out alone on the run any better? or going to the wall for that matter? where they will be cold, celibate and possibly not able to do their chosen trades. we can speculate that they were afraid, that being prisoners was bad -- but the reality of the show is that we haven't seen any fear since the rat torture, which tywin explicitly said is a no no -- what, you think the mountain is going to start it over again now that tywin left? or that he will hang two kids in an effort to find bwb? hot pie doesn't seem concerned with this, and gendry makes no mention one way or another.

He explains to Arya why he can't do it NOW (this appears in the book too but worded differently). Since they do not have time to do Weasel Soup , why does not escape sound like the logical thing to ask for? Actually it shows she is quick on her feet, because she realizes she is going to have to trick Jaqen, which she does. Jaqen has to go out of his FM box... the same thing happens in the book and I have always thought this is why he gives her the coin and the words and says something about Braavos. I think he has been evaluating her as a FM for the FM.

no, he doesnt explain why he can't do it now. he just says that i cannot do -- but he already said the same exact thing about amory lorch, right before he then went and killed amory lorch about 30 seconds later. why wouldn't arya press him and say yes you can -- you did it with amory -- just go catch up to him.

it would have been logical thing to ask for if jaqen had said no i cant do it now no matter what you threaten me with -- it is impossible to catch up to him now that he has been gone for awhile -- but considering that he could kill amory on the spot based on a simple plea by arya, we are supposed to believe that he couldnt kill tywin asap even under threat of death? why not?

he gives us no explanation. the book doesn't either -- but time is not of the essence with arya's book kills, so it doesn't matter -- he merely says that they will die sometime both on the show and in the books, not that it is impossible to effect a quick kill -- and the fact that he has already disproved this fact by killing amory on the spot takes away from the argument that he couldnt do it right away. he is a bamf -- that's what we're supposed to get from him.

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